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CM going "over the skis" - Page 2

post #31 of 43
Find a bunny hill that's quiet and practice your turns with 1 ski. Then swap and make a few runs with the other foot. Find a friend you CAN TRUST and take turns blind-folded and do some more turns. That'll get you tuned in.
post #32 of 43
Thanks Ott. Skiing slow is a really big deal -- HH teaches it.

We're taught to make parallel turns, all the way down the run, without picking up any speed.

The better I get at skiing slow, the better my skills get.
post #33 of 43
I'll second it--or third or fourth it! Practicing at slow speeds--even extremely slow speeds--is where we learn precision, discipline, consistency. Like a bicycle--it takes a very good rider to hold a line at low speed, and an extraordinary rider to do a "track stand" at a standstill!

Phil and Steve Mahre (two of the fastest skiers ever!), at the Mahre Training Center were BIG advocates of doing exercises at low speeds. In fact, one of the biggest differences between the exercises we used for various skill levels was that the better skiers would perform them more slowly!

It takes a true expert, too, to be fascinated with skiing a low speed turn.

If you can go slowly, you can always go faster. The converse is not necessarily true!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #34 of 43
Some test drills

Can you, make open paralell turns no faster than a walking speed.

watch for wedges and stepping.

now see if you can make normal speed paralell turns with as much weight as you can on one leg and fake the paralell with the other. 5 turns and switch. Can others tell wich leg you are actualy skiing on? Then try it slow. HEHEHE

Watch for upper body noise polution and watch hand, pole, and feet visual litter.
post #35 of 43
SCSA is absolutely correct! In some of the PMTS instructor training camps, HH has us doing linked 6 foot radius turns. No way are you going to go fast. One of my balance excersizes is to traverse on the uphill edge of the uphill ski and carry the downhill ski off the snow. To turn, I tip the downhill ski while off the snow. Then I wait for the CM to move into the turn and the uphill ski to turn. Really helps dicipline.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 06, 2001 05:41 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Rick H ]</font>
post #36 of 43
Read the thread.

1000 steps I know about and use, the slow skiing, that's something I will be using this season. Sounds like a great idea, so thanks for bringing that up.
post #37 of 43
Hey...just a quick thought on mosh's good post:

On the matter of the CM crossing over the skis. It happens every time we go from zig to zag. How does it happen, well it all boils down to flexing and extending. The confusing part is that people expect to see rising and falling with these flexing and extending. When it is all working there is little effect on the cm in the vertical plane.

"The Trigger" I feel that the best skiers are aware of the pressure that they feel on their feet. The goal is to use flexing and extending to keep the pressure as constant as possible. So what this means When the pressure begins to get critical we dump it by flexing. when the pressure gets to light we hunker down and Mash on it. The outcome is "constant pressure" That is the triger for great skiers.[/QB][/quote]

Hey mosh...just a quick thought for the pot. The flexion/extension moves you talk about are right on for presssure mangement (if you will) movements. You can actively control pressure with your legs, it is the key, the interface between your body and your skis.

But I am inclinced to argue that the natural pattern of G forces in a turn are more cyclecle (sp?) then you describe. You (or I)actively release G's at the end of a turn. There is a descernable reduction of G's and you have a moment (sometimes more if you're cruising like Ott) in time and space of weightlessness (I know...controversial usage) or lightness as the skis change edges then the skis engage in the new turn and the forces build quickly and max out close to or just after the skis arc through the falline. The shorter the turns the more concentrated the forces towards the end. Either way, the G's of a turn build and then release. Over and over again. I believe you can definately engage the skis early with extension at the top of the turn but I do not believe you can hit max G's in the initial third of an arc. It is more in the middle third even at the top levels of racing where this is easiest to see.

Although a worthy goal and a sound element of good skiing, I don't think it's really possible to maintain totally consistant G's through a series of turns. Really top skiers can concentrate the forces close to falline by engaging and then releasing the turn close to the falline and taking a straghter line down the hill. At the same time, maybe the more effective way to accomplish the same thing (fast, efficient skiing) is to build the G's early, trigger the release close to the falline and release the turn more slowly. You reduce the explosive energy but you may gain accuracy and focus to the arc.

Up for discussion of course.

post #38 of 43
Hi Bob B! Thanks for posting the sequence for discussion. In a nut shell, I like pictures 3 and 10. Other then that, I really think like a few others here that the counter-rotation to create edge angle on a straight leg is bunk. A skier who maintains this posture through each turn in a series cannot deal well with changes in terrain or any other movement needed to maintain subtlety and adaptability.

I too am an advocate of a square stance with very little tip lead. Keep the skis arcing together by staniding on two skis with varyng degrees of weight distrubution depending on snow conditions, etc. Link the turns with good movements starting at the foot level not the hip/upper body level.

It seems to me that heavy counter to engage the turn has very limited useful application to good skiing and even racing.

All this discussion is really crushing me. I need to SKI!
post #39 of 43
Thread Starter 
Eski got the hammer out and hit the nail on the head.

Pressure managment is on of the keys to good skiing. This is how good skiers maintain traction(don't skid) on ice. World class skiers have developed all the other skills to a point that they can allow massive g-forces to build during a turn this pushes the ski into the hard snow or i*e allowing it to grip and shape the turn.

Its amazing to see course workers at a World cup event using crampons to walk on the course barely leaving a mark and then to see the deep tracks left in the i#c by the first skier on course. Truly amazing the forces they develop during a turn. This is also why their legs and abdomen are so well developed in the weight room.
post #40 of 43

Your description of patterns of G forces and their cyclical nature rings very true. This (as well as some of your previous) posts create a very clear visualization of the skiing experience for me. I find it useful as a trigger for some mental skiing gymnastics, which, until I head to Copper next week, is the only type of practice I'm going to get. Thanks.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 07, 2001 06:16 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Si ]</font>
post #41 of 43
Thanks guys...I'm glad there is clarity coming across.

Maybe snow this weekend! Man, I hope so.

post #42 of 43
Thanks guys...it's good to know there is a level of clarity coming across.

Wish I was going to Copper too. I was supposed to be in Keystone this week skiing and training with a few friends but I couldn't make it. Dern.

We might get some snow this weekend at Sugar Bowl. Man, I hope so. Jones'in hard for a few turns. Especailly with the new Mt Lincoln express coming online!

post #43 of 43
Hi gang--just a quick note on the illustrations....

No "counter-rotation" is intended in the illustration. The rotation illustrated is the feet and legs turning beneath the pelvis, independently of the upper body, each around a separate axis--a very different mechanism than counter-rotation. I realize that this nuance is probably not visible in the small-sized illustration, and the amount of "counter" illustrated is perhaps a little exaggerated.

There is one key visible difference between "counter-rotation" (upper body and lower body rotating in opposite directions) and "independent leg steering" (which I attempted to illustrate). When we stand in a square stance, lines across our feet, knees, hips shoulders, and hands are all parallel. When we twist the upper and lower body in opposite directions (counter-rotation--think of "The Twist"), obviously a line across the shoulders and a line across the feet will cross. But when we simply turn both feet in the same direction, all the lines remain parallel.

Todd Murchison described a good visual: put your hands on a table, pointing straight ahead. Now pivot both of them to the right. They remain "parallel," but the right hand now "leads." You pushed neither hand forward, but the right hand is clearly in front, by a slight amount (the amount of lead is proportional to the separation between the hands. This is same movement that the skis of a snowmobile make when you turn the bar--both skis pivot independently, each on its own axis. And it is the "foot steering" that Regine Cavagnoud demonstrates, and that I tried to illustrate in my cryptic illustration.

Look at any frame of the illustration, and it is quite clear that a line across the ski tips is parallel to a line across the hands or shoulders. No counter-rotation!

At least that's the intent.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
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