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CM going "over the skis"

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
ESki I thought this topic might deserve its own thread.

"If some one could address this question it would be great.Just to recap a little further...what is the the movement (the trigger) for getting the CM to go "over the skis" as you guys describe?"

Here is a generic discription that fits most contemporary skiing.

We need to start by looking at body alignment as the previous turn develops. We use muscular tension in the torso and legs to keep th cm from being pulled to the outside of the turn while at the same time tipping feet legs body into the turn.

Sometime after the fallline that tension is relaxed allowing the skiis to flatten and the cm to move toward the new turn. If the release(relaxing) of lower leg/foot is corectly timed mother nature(centrifical force) will pull the center of mass toward the new turn.

Depending on the shape of the turn and how quickly we need to move the cm to keep up with the feet dictates how much we need to aid this release with muscular action to direct the cm.

There are many variables that affect this movement but it must begin with a release of the edge in the feet/lower leg.

Ok I've started the ball rolling, have at it guys.....and gals.
post #2 of 43
You're on a roll, Hap! You've alluded to the point that I wanted to make too, which is that there does not necessarily NEED to be a "trigger." We discussed this idea at length in "Where does it all begin??? ", about where and how a turn starts.

If everything is flowing in the right direction, and one turn ends appropriately in "neutral," and the skier intends to continue to link smooth turns, then there is nothing whatever that he/she needs to "do" to start a turn, or to get the CM to "go over the skis." The same movement that brought the CM from inside the previous turn to neutral simply continues on to the other side.

In linked turns, the skis and CM take different paths that cross at the moments of neutral. Both paths describe smooth and continuous "S-shaped" arcs, with no breaks or glitches at the transition.

But there are lots of "ifs" in my premise above! So what if the turns are NOT smoothly linked? What if the skier makes a turn after going straight for a while? Or what if the skier has to make a quick, unexpected direction change halfway through a turn, or needs to suddenly make a turn that is much tighter than he had expected.

In these situations, the skier cannot simply let the CM continue to flow in the direction had been going. He/she has to do something to CHANGE that direction. In other words, he has to introduce a new force that applies to the CM.

That force can come from his feet on the snow, or from some other part of him interacting with the snow--particularly, his ski pole. Relaxing the downhill leg while tensing or extending the uphill leg transfers weight to the uphill ski. In other words, the force applied from the snow to the CM now comes from a different direction, slightly more uphill. And that's all it takes to push the CM downhill and into the turn!

The wider the stance when this weight transfer takes place, the more quickly the CM will be pushed across. Again, this is because the direction of the force from the snow changes more dramatically with a wider stance. We had this discussion, too, (indeed, we thrashed it to death!) in the recent threads "Narrow/Wide Stance and Balance/Stability" and "Narrow vs wide, my stand". To tie these discussions together, it should be clear that the more we want to simply "continue the flow," the more it is appropriate to have a narrower stance when transferring weight (or not to transfer weight in the first place--another discussion altogether!); the more we need or want to CHANGE the direction of the CM's flow, the more it is appropriate to widen the stance and transfer weight.

Another option is to push the CM across the skis with the pole. This would involve an UPHILL pole plant--somewhat unusual, but actually not that uncommon in high level skiing. Watch slalom racers. Alberto Tomba was probably the most obvious example of this, as he regularly directed his body with a double pole plant.

In summary, when I'm just cruising carved turns on groomed runs, I don't feel a need for any particular "trigger" or movement to cause the crossover into the new turn, as long as I'm in balance. If I'm not in balance, though, or if I need to change the direction of my CM's motion at transition, I think of movements that originate in my feet. I tip my downhill ski downhill, toward its "little toe" edge, while perhaps also turning the downhill ski downhill into the turn. These movements begin the chain that continues up through my knees and hips, everything directed into the new turn. If I need to turn more quickly, I may step or stem my uphill ski up, widening my stance to push me more quickly into the new turn, or I may throw both skis uphill, creating the appropriate relationship between my feet and my CM immediately, without even needing to redirect the CM. And I may even add a quick push with my uphill pole to help redirect my CM downhill.

A technical discussion of a simple concept! But I hope it's clear enough. One point that I want to emphasize is that there is no one movement or technique that applies in all situations. Weight transfer or not, wide or narrow stance, stems, steps, relaxing the downhill leg, actively extending the uphill leg, or rapidly retracting both legs, combining powerful rotary "twisting" movements--perhaps with some active unweighting move--or simply doing nothing and literally "going with the flow"--all these options have their place in expert skiing.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 03, 2001 08:18 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #3 of 43
Hapski and Bob, I just wanted to make a comment that I hope will make many skiers really evaluate what they are doing when they relax to direct the CM.
I am astonished at the number of instructor types who can recite what you have said yet consistently fail to time the movement of their CM's into the next turn thereby failing to gain an early edge with the resultant up-unweighting. These same instructors will swear up and down that they have a consistent flow of CM from one turn to the next and an early edge. They will also swear that they are initiating laterally instead of more vertically.
What they are really doing is becomming static in the control phase of their turns and hanging onto the turn to long. They simply shut down the upper and lower body separation after turn initiation and re-establish upper and lower body separation just prior to the next turn initiation.
This has got to be the number one killer for level III candidates in exams. Is the concept so hard to grasp? I don't get it.
post #4 of 43
Thread Starter 
Great point Pierre. Most skiers I've worked with that fit your description don't understand that the release move starts way back in the old turn near the fall line. If we don't start the move then it result in the park-n-ride that your talking about. Some form of up twist upper body into turn also accompanies this late release.
post #5 of 43
post #6 of 43
I agree too, Pierre eh!--well said!

There are two common ways strong skiers deal with the "park & ride" problem. The most common sign is a big "up and forward" movement at the turn initiation, often accompanied by throwing the arms forward, and sometimes a double pole swing. You're right--these skiers will swear that they're moving correctly--forward and across their skis into the new turn. But if they'd been moving correctly all along, they wouldn't NEED this big, obvious, energetic move!

The other solution, a little less common and not always recognized as compensating for an error, is a strong, quick retraction move of both legs during the edge change. "Retraction turns" have their place in good skiing, especially in soft conditions, but habitual retraction moves on normal conditions usually indicate a skier stuck "back and in" at the end of the turn.

One of my favorite exercises to get the point across (for stronger, athletic skiers)is the common "1000 Steps," done vigorously, almost skating through the turns and the transitions. (Sidebar: "1000 Steps," just like it sounds, involves stepping repeatedly from ski to ski throughout the turn and through the transitions. To do 1000 Steps properly, it's important that every step moves you INTO the turn--that each time you pick up a ski, you move its TIP IN to the turn, rather than its tail out. Your skis will create "V's," not "A's" as you look down at them. Your edges should hold firmly--little, if any, skidding, cleanly inscribed tracks.)

With each step of the 1000 Steps, your body must move forward to stay with your feet, just like walking or running. There is never a "down and back" move. In this exercise, this forward movement happens repeatedly, thoughout the turn. The only difference between the exercise and "real skiing" is that the same movement happens in normal turns CONTINUOUSLY throughout the turn.

What happens in the transition in 1000 Steps is especially telling. Many strong skiers can make diverging steps ("V's") through the turn. But then they get to the transition and they step their tails around, tips converging, creating "A's" with their skis. Moving the body forward, across, and downhill of the feet takes confidence. It feels like falling--and it would BE falling if the skis didn't come around and catch us!

All right, it's getting late. Good discussion, everyone! No more A's and V's--time for some Z's....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #7 of 43
OK, Gentlemen and Ladies,

I just posted a note in the other discussion on "unweighting" but I find it to be applicable here as well, in an effort to be time efficient,I will paste it here and maybe add a choice comment or two to further clarify. But, here it is:

Another way to trigger the CM to flow into the new turn and at the same time to unweight the skis: maybe we can call it, for discussion purposes, "guided unweighting". I have desrcibed this before but briefly it the deliberate movement of releaseing the turn (reducing the G's) and the edges by relaxing the outside leg then, to some degree depending on preference or snow/terrain demands, the inside one. By guided, I mean there is not a set rate at which you flex the legs to draw the skis into nuetral and the upper body into the turn (which happens simultaneously). YOU can guide the rate this happens which can determine your turn radius even at varying speeds. This is also my version of the "trigger" to move the CM across the skis. The continuation (the magic) of this move to enter the new turn without a hitch is to continue to focus on the movement of the same release foot which becomes the new inside foot. After you take the weight off it and pass through neutral with both skis matching edge angles (0 degrees here), you continue to lightly lead the edge change with it. This puts your "weight" naturally on the new outside and it bends into the arc with very little force needed.

Another thing that really helps this is to have good upper/lower body seperation when finishing the turn to load the rotary energy so that as the skis pass through nuetral as describerd above, they more naturally seek the falline as they come up onto edge (in my humble opinion, this takes the place of active steering movement). This can happen fast or slow. Check out the next issue of Skiing Magazine, I have it from a good source that there will be a short article on just this.

To Bob and a couple others...I have to say that I just do not see how all this can just "happen on it's own". Unless of course you happen to be the world's most talented totem pole with a swiveling/pivoting head. Even then you are still using at least this one moving part to aid in the cause of linking turns. I fell like a Master of the Obvious when I say that there HAS to be movement of the body to control the skis and the flow between turns.

All in good nature!


P.S. And, of course, as Ott pointed out in the other discussion, this is not the only way to make it happen. This just happens to be my favorrite and it works just about ALL the time for me in wide ranging snow/terrain/speeds and turn radii. It also works extremely well for my clients of wide ranging ability level and goals.
post #8 of 43

Your discussion on 1000 turns is very correct. However, I would like to add one point. As this movement is part of the PMTS progression, I teach it a lot. What I do is have the students focus on touching the little toe edge first. The ski will slide a little before you feel the edge engage. It seems to give the student the confidence that there is something that can be done to stop the ski from sliding laterally.

More to the issue at hand. I just read an article in Ski Racing about wide stance and racing. Of interest is the topic of "even feet." To couteract scissoring, the inside foot is retracted, so that the binding are aligned. On of the benefits of even feet, is better balance. Another benefit, from my observation, is when the inside foot is tipped and is even with the outside, the CM will move more quickly to the inside of the turn.

When I first started with PMTS, HH was harping on my tip lead. He kept after me to draw my inside foot back. The result now is a 3-5" lead. After reading this SR article, I think that I will work even more. It is suggested in the article, that if done correctly, one should feel the tongue of the boot against the shin, of the inside leg, throughout the turn. Also the heels get sore from the retraction.

The sequence, as I understand it, is release, transfer and at the start of engagement, draw the inside ski back. The movement of the retraction accelerates the CM tipping into the turn.

Comments anyone???
post #9 of 43
Eski really has it going.
post #10 of 43
Hi RickH--

An interesting experiment--completely even tips. I'll play with it when I get a chance. But at this point, I have to think it is too much, a case of the pendulum swinging too far from one extreme to the other. Not too many years ago, early in the "shaped ski" era, there was an article in one of the big ski rags, from US coaches, advocating pushing the inside ski FORWARD. In fact, the move was to push the downhill ski forward before initiating the turn, which resulted in an extreme tip lead in the upcoming turn. This, in turn, resulted in strong, gross hip angulation and an inability to create effective knee angles or to steer the outside ski.

That was too much.

Last season, these same coaches came out and said that "the new thing we're working on is reduced inside ski lead," or something to that effect. I think they're still there, but I think it is an effect of going too far to one extreme, then over-correcting!

Tip lead need not be much. It is a natural outcome of two factors combined. First, when we lean into a turn, the inside leg flexes more than the outside leg, which brings the knee, and thus the ski, forward. Second, when both feet turn independently beneath the pelvis, the inside tip naturally ends up leading the outside tip, by a degree proportional to the width of the stance and the amount of the leg rotation. It's analogous to the natural subtle tip lead when you turn the handlebars of a snowmobile.

For what it's worth, I do observe that a lot of skiers, perhaps especially instructors, tend to create excessive tip lead. For them, it is a good idea to play with reducing it. Bringing the inside ski all the way back to even with the outside ski would be good experience, but I think that ultimately, your 3-5" lead sounds pretty appropriate!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #11 of 43

That's what I am talkin' bout!


I like the diagram of the linked turns as curves viewed from the top illustrating the skis path. Inside each turn / curve is a smaller curve representing the skiers path.

Mass can be shown as a series of littel arrows that point out from the inner curve toward the larger curve or the ski.

If we could measure it that lateral projection of mass (do not kill the term just go with it here) would increase or decrease depending on a number of causes.

During the transition (another term to argue) the mass or pressure or weight is moved over the curve representing the skis path.

To accomplish this there must be an effort put forth. To break the arc which the skier is on requires that his / or her weight, must be repositioned.

This at speed is a thrilling thing. It is like a 300 yard drive straight down the middle. It is like a 75 mile an hour curve in a formulae one car. it is like ... well you guys know what it is like. So what is it?

Man for my money it is six or seven techniques which at time blend togeather and at times become raw and exposed for what they are. But in all cases to avoid riding out the curve a change must occur with the weight of the primary driving force, that being the weight of the skier. (CM)

SO they UN weight, Transfer weight, drive wheight hauls weight over to the other side!


Right off hand I can think of about twelve techniques that could work and would work given a set of conditions. (ice, corn, powder, ruts, poor line, no line, tree line, bump, jump, forest gump, you name it)


Oh and I forgot, speed, greed, creed and the infamous EGO! (all are good motivatiors and conditions for techique choice)

post #12 of 43
Thread Starter 

Some observations from watch world cuppers train in Summit Co. Over the past three seasons.

The upper body has become much more square to the direction of travel. Counter develops at the last portion of the turn only when terrain, turn shape and mechanics dictate. We used to see a strong countered relationship between upper and lower body in most turns.

It is my opinion that the amount of inside ski lead is related to the amount of counter needed. Little counter=minimal tip lead, Mega counter=larger tip lead.

I'm sure this will spark the discussion of why and how much counter is needed. Didn't have time to go there just now.

Allmost no counter present when the turn exit and turn entry are near the fall line. As the turn exit moves away from the fall line (more across the hill) we begin to see counter develope near the end of the turn remaining fairly square through the fall line.

Once again we see evidence that our movements must match speed terrain and tactics(intent).
post #13 of 43
>>>This at speed is a thrilling thing. It is like a 300 yard drive straight down the middle. It is like a 75 mile an hour curve in a formulae one car. it is like ... well you guys know what it is like. So what is it?

Don't any of you ever ski slow, or do you just bomb down the slope? Very little finesse is required when going fast because speed is a great helper if things are not so precise, but skiing slower you've got to nail your edge control or the mountain will punish you.

So very many skiers I've skied with are out of my sight in a minute, if I try to keep up with them my hat flies off. When I ask them to ski behind me I hear the crunches as they throw their skis sideways, making hocky stop turns [img]smile.gif[/img]

So what do they tell me? "I just love speed". OK, but all the time? Don't you ever play the terrain?

post #14 of 43
I did alot of East Coast skiing when I was a kid, midwest too.
Ice all the time, SLOW carve where you can. Slow and short radius turns on ice for many years has me a bit spoiled, I totaly agree you have to be on it or else.
Now that I am older!
I ski how and when I want, although no one pays me to ski, which is great, because I go slow I go fast. I enjoy skiing!

I do ski shcool turns only at the point of a GUN. (or at the bottom of Ajax as I head in fro the night and maybe John Armstrong or Bob are standing there! hehehehe)


Can not think of anything else.

Oh yeah the easy life, ski fast so you do not have to work so hard!
post #15 of 43
Here's a picture that illustrates several of the points that have come up in this thread. It has the two intersecting lines that Dr. Go spoke of--the path of the skis and the path of the body. It also shows a nominal amount of inside tip lead, changing through "square" at the neutral point between turns.

The illustration is from the 3rd Edition of my book, but in honor of Regine Cavagnoud (the great French racer who just passed away after a tragic collision with a coach), I've included a photograph of her perfectly demonstrating a moment in the turns. (She'd be around position 7 or 8 in the diagram.)

Edge change movements, smooth weight transfer, and overall upper-lower body alignment are also illustrated here. Lots to discuss!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

edit--Sorry gang--I'm trying to get the image to view a little bigger for clarity, without success....

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 05, 2001 11:15 AM: Message edited 5 times, by Bob Barnes/Colorado ]</font>
post #16 of 43

To say that these things (edge change, lateral pressure distribution, etc) "just happen" is a bit too much to swallow but then I don't think that I have said that. What I have said is that these things are the outcomes of the feet and CM crossing paths. And this is a result of the movement pattern of my feet, legs and body throughout the entire preceding turn. I am working from first engagement of the skis in the new turn through the gradual flattening of the skis through the last half of the turn to set up the path of the skis and CM so that at the point of transition I can let them cross and start setting up for the next transition. Because I have spent the whole turn setting things up I can "let what's going to happen, happen" and flow through that part of the turn where so many skiers seem to be trying to do two or three things at once to "trigger" these things.

I know that the above goes against the general thinking about making a ski turns and is hard for some to accept just as it was very difficult for many to look at a ski turn as being anything but the c-shape that we all draw on the snow for our students. If everyone starts their thinking with the same premise (the c-shape turn), which also carries 50+ years of dogma by the way, then is it any wonder that so many of them reach the same conclusion. Even when new ideas come along, like relax to release, they run up against the idea that we must "do something" to enter the "new turn". Why not "relax to release and engage". A few seasons ago our ski school went with a skiing model of turn shaping movements, turn connecting movements and balancing movements instead of the skills concept that PSIA has been using for the past 25+ years. Now this was a nice change but it too was based on the c-shape turn and carried with it the limitations of that premise. I would argue that turn shaping movements are all that are necessary and the turn connection is an outcome of that shaping of the turn.

Finally, it seems to me that there really isn't a lot going on at that point in the turn. I'm not making any great change in the direction of the CM. Due too low edge angles the skis aren't producing a lot of force. Ski lead is very even. All that is going to happen is that the edges are going to change and that is an outcome of the feet moving from one side of the body to the other.
Why not relax through this quiet part of the turn?

It makes more sense to me that the movement pattern through the entire turn leads to the seamless connection of two (or more) c-shape turns rather than just one movement accomplishing this.

So to answer the question about how I get my CM across the skis I guess you could say I just set up a situation, converging paths of the feet and CM, where my crossing the skis is inevitable and then get the hell out of the way and let the crossing happen.

Another longish post, hope it makes some sense,
post #17 of 43
ES: Perhaps you feel the need to trigger the next turn initiation with some recognizable activity because you are holding onto the old turn with too much weight on the old outside (next turn's inside) ski. I'm working in my own skiing on equalizing the pressure on the skis before I quit turning, and at the point I quit turning, I'm entering the next turn. This, to me, is complete flow.
post #18 of 43
Yeah Bob, I can read what you are demonsrating, ( I "feel" a littel like a "blind or visualy impared" skier though as the graphic did not come out. maybe dchan or AC can assit there)

I do appreciate your honoring one of our own, who gave her life to the sport she loved. A kindred spirit for us all!

SO once the edge begins to SET as the G builds up and there are a number of mechanicals there (hip, force, Center mass on and on) to get to the other side a Weight Transfer, SHIFT, un-rooting, up-parking, or un-weighting as the one position is given up for the other, yes?

It is magic and hard to teach. SEEING is BELIEVING. and DOING is getting it down.

How many have we coached that read the book, see the film and hear the coach. Even see others in the team do it right and have problems. How many do this or that right and get it wrong here or there and lose time or crash.

We do it over and over again, we watch ourselves on film to see how it goes, and doesn't.

There are MANY techniques involved and many that must be mastered to get to this level.

Step by step (oh maybe a bad choice of words) we make progress to this level.

Great thing about technology is that we are making it faster for the learning curve all the time due to reduction of difficult mechanics or physics of the equipment itself.

That is why some of the terms, phrases, and teachings of old may be out of step (there I go again).

I do propose that some of the old terms, phrases, and teachings have new and better purchase in the minds of the student. Now maybe more than ever.

The real key is GOing. The more miles you and others have said the better.

As Ott oints out some may never get to this level, or even aspire to. We study this level of skiing as these athelets are mesuresd against the clock and need clean lines to go ever faster. So they MUST carving better than possibly others
Here we share our passion of learned excercise. It provides a classroom for study of the edge, mechnics and physics of the sport.

Keep up the great work!

Now again explain that instant where the curve of the skier crosses the curve of the ski. Things are magic, what was pressing is less, or more within an istant, but it is never the same, for the most part.

Must I change my position of pressure (weight) to attain the other?
(must I unweight at the end of the turn?)

I am ready now to listen, and see.
post #19 of 43
I did get the image as it realoded after the post.

Great stuff!
post #20 of 43
In reference to the tip lead of the inside/outside ski I would have to agree to this extent. We seem to have concentrated so much within inside ski/foot “little toe” and relax the leg/ankle initiation we skiers may have forgot to be more “forward” active with their outside ski. Last year working with upper level skiers I gave them a task I had been exploring of moving the outside ski forward through the turn to keep the tips aligned. The roundness of their turns even on our very “loud” powder was simply amazing. The one key I gave them was to not be overactive. Making this move with too much “push” if you will definitely sets you in the “backseat”. Now I see students with inside release but both skis actively “working” the turn shape if you will. Since the CM is taking the continuous path needed the skiing became effortless and downright smooth!

I worked with a level II instructor to eliminate the “park and ride”. Initially it didn’t work but she came up with an idea and it worked great. We started out in a wedgy (very small wedge) on very easy terrain to allow her to experience the feel. We built up from there to steeper and steeper terrain. Park and ride went to all driving.

Eski – Your right things don’t just happen. To avoid confusion with the CM with my students, intermediate and up, I like to tell them they want to drag the skis downhill and not let the skis drag them down the hill. This works most of the time. The visualization helps them to understand they need to keep their CM moving to the future. Of course I rarely use CM as the word. I find most students, because they do not initiate the turn at the “top”, are really finished with the turn before the turn is finished with them. Hence they fight their equipment and themselves without really knowing it! If we could only teach the student to initiate earlier they would understand the next turn could start at the apex and not the bottom of the turn. Oh well maybe they will be good re-bounders? Obviously the finish is the wrong the start is worse and the CM well only time will tell what path it will take but probably not to the future.
post #21 of 43
Dr. Go questions:

"Now again explain that instant where the curve of the skier crosses the curve of the ski. Things are magic, what was pressing is less, or more within an istant, but it is never the same, for the most part.

Must I change my position of pressure (weight) to attain the other?
(must I unweight at the end of the turn?)"

When you GO with the FLOW, there is no "instant" of anything. Everything just keeps changing.

Bob's image helps to understand, but if you follow the ski pressure applications to the point they're EQUAL (skiers #3 & #10) and then put half as much shading on the left ski for #2 and on the right ski for #4 or visa versa for #9 and #11 and maybe a fourth as much shading for #1 and #5 OR #8 and imagine it for invisible #12, etc., you get a better idea of the pressure blending.

You should like it because its onGOing :~).

And FLOYD: Thanks for the descriptive thought of the skier dragging the skis downhill rather than the skis hauling the skier. Nice addition to the pool of ways to get the idea across.
post #22 of 43
This thread is getting all twisted.

Hap, I am definatly pickin up what you are laying down.

It is my lifelong wish that to be an examiner you have to understand worldcup skiing and you should have to be involved in coaching at some level.

Beyond that I just have to say To those that care, Counter is just OUT!!! Ok let it go you will be ok. Keep it square. of course it is not totaly gone but lets consider the less is more philosophy when it comes to counter. Thank you and good night
post #23 of 43
Ok lets get a bit more seroius,

On the matter of the CM crossing over the skis. It happens every time we go from zig to zag. How does it happen, well it all boils down to flexing and extending. The confusing part is that people expect to see rising and falling with these flexing and extending. When it is all working there is little effect on the cm in the vertical plane.

"The Trigger" I feel that the best skiers are aware of the pressure that they feel on their feet. The goal is to use flexing and extending to keep the pressure as constant as possible. So what this means When the pressure begins to get critical we dump it by flexing. when the pressure gets to light we hunker down and Mash on it. The outcome is "constant pressure" That is the triger for great skiers.
post #24 of 43

Gravity moves me down the hill. If I want to go anywhere else the only way that I have to get there is to use the skis to direct my body where I want it to go. To accomplish this I must have my body and my feet in such a relationship that I can use the force generated by the ski to "push" the body around. This relationship does put the body slightly in front of the feet. But the body isn't dragging the skis around behind it the skis are pushing the body in front of them. The feeling might be one of moving the CM in the direction you want to go and the skis follow but according to Newton and the laws of motion that ain't what's happening.

post #25 of 43
Yd, try not to over-analyze this statement of body/skis.

It is just a way of thinking about it. Even in a straight run down the fall line, if the skier feels that he is standing on a pair of slippery slats which are being pulled down the hill by gravity, he is in the back seat desperatly trying to keep up with these speeding beasts.

But if the skier feels that gravity is pulling HIM down the slope and he could go even faster if it weren't for the friction that these slats have on the snow, he is forward.

Isn't it true that what keeps the skiers speed from ever increasing is the friction of the skis? (ignoring wind resistance for now)

post #26 of 43

>>Don't any of you ever ski slow, or do you just bomb down the slope? <<

Right on, Ott! Now I can understand why you go slow. Especially when you have to stand in line at the bottom at your hill which can't be more than three or four hundred yards.

So very many skiers I've skied with are out of my sight in a minute, if I try to keep up with them my hat flies off. When I ask them to ski behind me I hear the crunches as they throw their skis sideways, making hocky stop turns <<

I know about the hat thing. I'll tell you, they make a little wormy thing with two alligator clips on the end that attach to the jacket and hat. If your hat blows off, it's still on your person. A must when whizzzzzzzing.

And the benefits of skiing slow? You have to know what your doing. You have to be a master of reading terrain, etc. IMHO, it's much more demanding to ski slow than fast. I like it! But I do like to uncork it too! ---------Wigs
post #27 of 43
It was said that Ingmar Stenmark, who was a perfectionist, always worked on his problems by skiing slowly.
post #28 of 43
Wigs, why do you think we ski Out West and in Europe a lot? I do like to uncork it too! I have nothing against skiing fast, providing you can ski slow also, which most habitual fast skers don't seem to able to do. It takes precision.

post #29 of 43
I practice skiing slow all the time - it's vital towards becoming an expert skier.
post #30 of 43
Atta boy, SCSA [img]smile.gif[/img] ....Ott
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