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Oh Crud! - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Everything that was used by the pros at the Academy has been stated in these forums many times. Its already here in writing. I would have to say its likely that Lisamarie has posted everything that she used at the academy, in the forums as well.

The simpliest and best advice so far has been relax and let the skis do the work. Don't beat on the skis or try to shove the tails into the middle of next week.

Crud is interesting and I find it delightful and hard to resist. Especially if its partially frozen.
post #32 of 50
Thread Starter 
"The simpliest and best advice so far has been relax and let the skis do the work. Don't beat on the skis or try to shove the tails into the middle of next week. "

HA! HA! Spoken by someone who knows exactly what I do! [img]smile.gif[/img]

One of the many words of wisdom we got from Weems, was the idea that when students are trying to experiment on different types of terrain, some of their old bad habits will tend to resurface.
IHTS mentioned the idea of being grounded, and I made a comparison between being grounded and using brute force. But, as I myself will sometimes say "You can't fire a cannon from a canoe!" So strength without grounding is hardly strength at all.

Being balanced and centered was for many years my absolute weakest link, which is probably why I'm obsessed with it now. I gues I should stop avoiding crud and start working on it a bit more!
Great discussion everyone, thanks! [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #33 of 50
I find if you ski more aggresively, it works better in the crud. If you attack it, it doesn't bounce you around so much unexpectedley. Can't really describe it any other way.
post #34 of 50
General Patton the stuff. You're a steamroller, baby, bound to roll all over crud. Easy to get bounced around fore and aft, too, so I try to sink in, stay centered and use those arms (up and ahead of you) as balancing levers. Maybe helpful to "enlarge" some movements - weight transfer, pole plant, etc. - to keep from getting caught in stuff that you'd otherwise move through easily, if it weren't such crud.

[ February 19, 2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #35 of 50
Chubbs.
post #36 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
Chubbs.
Yeah, I noticed Gail went and got hers after that first run. Should have gone and rented. Oh well!
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
Yes, Disski, here's your chance to extrapolate on EXACTLY what you're getting at. Go for it!
well you see ryan it all started in the fitness forum

with this
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisamarie:
Looking at this in retrospect, I have a few thoughts on this. I've mentioned in a few other threads that one of the cool things about the academy was that people were going out of their comfort zone for 4 days, without any serious injury. And in the days following, people continued to ski.

This was the first time I actually got to use the preski warmup and apres ski stretch that works for me, on a large group of people.

You may want to experiment with this the next time you ski.
There was almost no static stretch in the warmup. Active, dynamic balance and flexibility exercises were performed on snow, with ski boots on. We started by moobilizing the feet and working with fore/aft, as well as lateral balance, and build up into larger moves, designed to increase range of motion.

The static stretches were done indoors, after skiing. As I mentioned, we had an almost non existent injury rate, which is unusual, when you consider both the amount of people present, as well as the fact that people were pushing their limits, technique wise.

In contrast, a women's clinic I attend anually, always begins with a long, indoor static stretch warm up. Although i have not seen anything serious happen, the injury rate is considerably higher, even though people are not working as hard as they were at the Utah clinic.
well I WOULD like to experiment with this - but I have no idea what exercises I should do so I responded with this...

Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
so LM - where do we get it???

I am waiting waiting waiting for some of the concrete stuff you guys did at the academy to appear in electrons but so far no show.... [img]smile.gif[/img]
I thought that a simple request - but then in the general ski forum in the 'expert' thread of great fame appeared a comment by LM that for anyone to request informatin on what had been learned was a slap in the face for those who attended the academy ... I failed to see any difference between wanting to know what had been learnt at any particular learning situation than in any other - so I posted the above...

I know LM understood it - she edited her post in the expert thread to remove that comment - I presume she realised the situation as she felt the need to edit that post! [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by megadeth:
If you are an instructor maybe you should find a better way of paying your bills if you are so concerned that giving someone pointers ....on an internet msg board is taking money out of your pocket.
[img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by ryan:
General Patton the stuff. You're a steamroller, baby, bound to roll all over crud. Easy to get bounced around fore and aft, too, so I try to sink in, stay centered and use those arms (up and ahead of you) as balancing levers. Maybe helpful to "enlarge" some movements - weight transfer, pole plant, etc. - to keep from getting caught in stuff that you'd otherwise move through easily, if it weren't such crud.
yep, thats what I do and it works, but it does take a lot of energy, so be careful not to kill yourself in a few hours of pounding it. It will kick you around if you let it, but if you dictate the line to the snow, it has to take it.
post #40 of 50
LM, there was a great thread about skiing crud last season. I remember it because I had just learned a little crud secret before the subject started a thread. My coach gave me two little tips that have made a gigantic difference in my crud skiing. As a result, I love skiing crud -- in some ways, more than I love skiing powder... the reason? It's more demanding, and I'm a fool for a technical challenge. Rather than botch the tips by trying to recite them here out of my one-year-old memory, I suggest searching the past threads for one on skiing crud. I promise the thread will contain valuable info, because I used a few of the other tips in there with great success last season.

Good luck. I expect to see you happily skiing crud by next year's Gathering.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #41 of 50
the wonderful challenges of snow in transition. it's not groomed, not powder, but not yet skier packed out or shaped into nice bumps. It's creative and ever changing. so many different textures, speeds and variations.

so many different tactics! as i mentioned earlier, solid technique doesn't need to, nor should it change, but within those simple movement patterrns, tactical adjustments can take place. As a consiour of crud, i rarely agree with the power tactic espoused above. A little finesse and the snow and the ski often become more playful mates. As you mentioned early, trying to push the snow around often makes the snow a bit unhappy. Glint and others above may be power skiers, but they even might find a multitude of cruddy conditions more enjoyable without that attack tactic.

Anyway, as I said, seek it out. get off the beaten path, play with tactics and listen to you point of contact (ski, snow).

cheers, holiday
post #42 of 50
"Simplify and Enjoy"
Holiday! My thoughts exactly.
post #43 of 50
For me it is critical to amp up/ramp up my flexion/extension capacities. I've just got to start moving in ankles, knees, hips and waist. The issue here is pressure. The edges are immersed and they don't need much work to create angles. The steering happens pretty much on its own--in fact way too much, because the skier tends to hunker down and burrow (crank) against the snow.

But the courage to go to full body length, sinking and rising, working the skis in the snow like porpoises in choppy seas--that is the essence of crud skiing. The snow is so irregular that it offers inconsistent resistance to the skis traveling through it. I've got to respond to that by managing pressure artfully.

Two other issues:
Pressure/depressure both skis simultaneously.
Accept the fact that the skis will never feel stabilized and therefore you will never be able to "hold position". (That is a good thing for your overall skiing.)

All tips are for free. No slaps received.

[ February 20, 2003, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: weems ]
post #44 of 50
Right on Weems! Don't you ever sleep?

To all you aspiring crud skiers, remember that crud comes in a variety of forms. Not only is it created by skiers/boarders but mother nature can also be a major factor with the contribution of sun, wind, and variations in temp and humidity.

Bump skiing requires the participant to make choices with the eyes,it is a very visual game. Crud skiing requires decisions to be made first and foremost with the feet. Learn to feel what is going on and respond accordingly. As Weems suggests, keep your body moving. Static skiing may work on the groomers,but a statue tends to become prone very quickly in crud. Experiment with more open turn shapes, and don't be afraid of speed to offset the variable resistance of the snow.

There is no bad snow, only inadequate technique.
post #45 of 50
I'm honored, Donny.

I have seen him ski crud and he is a true master.

No I have to get up early to keep my kids from stealing all my stuff.

One other idea--slightly more advanced:

It is often necessary to unweight,lighten the skis, to escape the grip of heavy crud on the edges in the previous turn. Many skiers do this, but fewer do it well. The trick is to hop into the fall line--NOT past the fall line--tips first. Land the skis directly pointing downhill. The forward momentum, and flexing to absorb some of the landing, allows you to drive the skis back out of the fall line and across the hill. As the skis come back across the hill, they set a new platform to hop off of.

Repeat immediately, before losing momentum. This creates a wonderful bouncing rhythm that turns crud into crudcake.

[ February 20, 2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: weems ]
post #46 of 50
Drive down the hill, be gentle with your edge changes and slow everything down as you move through the crud.

Although chubbs would make it easier, I found this weekend that Salomon 10.3's can slice throught that stuff quite well. I kept thinking I should have gone out and grabbed my Crossmaxes but didn't want to miss out on time or make AC wait for me. So we hunted out crud all over the mountain at Sugarbowl Monday and I just kept telling myself "drive down hill" "Don't square up with my skis", and "Slow down"
post #47 of 50
Thread Starter 
Here's the other crud or cruddy [img]smile.gif[/img] thread gonz was talking about:
http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...=000552#000000

Holiday said:

"As you mentioned early, trying to push the snow around often makes the snow a bit unhappy"

Uh huh! I think its interesting that different verbal cues can be excelllent for certain types of skiers, but deadly for others.
{that's probably a whole other topic!}

A few people here can attest to this; Ya' probably don't want to tell me to attack the crud. I get a bit carried away. Everybody elses legs start to hurt just watching me, and there saying "I don't feel the burn, I must be doing it wrong!"

Weems said:
"For me it is critical to amp up/ramp up my flexion/extension capacities. I've just got to start moving in ankles, knees, hips and waist. The issue here is pressure. The edges are immersed and they don't need much work to create angles".

Yeah, so I'm fighting through this stuff at Alta, and this guy skis up to me and says "I see you're having some trouble. I just took the Crud Course at Alta and they told me to use for ankle flex".

And here I thought it was just a line....

From DonnyB:
"Bump skiing requires the participant to make choices with the eyes,it is a very visual game. Crud skiing requires decisions to be made first and foremost with the feet. Learn to feel what is going on and respond accordingly."

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!
I'm watching the DVD that Bonni sent me of our class doing our very first bump run. Now keep in mind, it was not pretty, but I did notice relatively quiet upper body, pretty well centered, [although we will NOT talk about this totally bizarre pole maaneuver I did at one point!} considering we were newbies at this. But I can be pretty sure this was not happening with crud.

I also have another suspicion, but I'm not sure of it. At the top of Snowbasin, we were hit by major fog. Basically I got down by listening to whatever Pierre and Tog told me to do. Nothing felt all that awful. When we got down a bit, and there was more visability, I looked at the snow and decided that I was going to have a problem with it. For all I know, I was skiing crud in the fog.... [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #48 of 50
Quote:
Originally posted by weems:


...One other idea--slightly more advanced:

It is often necessary to unweight,lighten the skis, to escape the grip of heavy crud on the edges in the previous turn. Many skiers do this, but fewer do it well. The trick is to hop into the fall line--NOT past the fall line--tips first. Land the skis directly pointing downhill. The forward momentum, and flexing to absorb some of the landing, allows you to drive the skis back out of the fall line and across the hill. As the skis come back across the hill, they set a new platform to hop off of.

Repeat immediately, before losing momentum. This creates a wonderful bouncing rhythm that turns crud into crudcake.
Wow! That describes it so well.

The term "crud" takes in an awful lot of territory (much like "expert"? [img]smile.gif[/img] ). It ranges from wonderful, light cut-up powder to hideous garbage. As the skiability goes down, the possibility of getting thrown off-balance goes up exponentially. As that happens, unweighting (for me, anyway) becomes more and more of an answer. You use the unweighted moments to *initiate* the direction change and then let the sidecut of the skis complete it, while simultaneously setting up the rebound into the next turn. It's a riot.

Again from my own perspective, LM, the advice to just relax doesn't always apply. What seems to work best for me is to actively apply a little more pressure to the fronts of the skis all the way through the turn than I might otherwise. Because of the tendency of the skis (particularly the fronts of the skis) to get deflected or thrown sideways by the inconsistent snow, I think a paying a little more attention to keeping your weight driving forward works better.

I love the topic. Let's go ski some crud right now.

Bob
post #49 of 50
good grab, LM... I forgot that one, and was thinking of this one, in which I was much closer to my usually overfriendly self:

gonz shows that Dale Carnegie really knows how to teach
post #50 of 50
More good tips up here. Adding unweighting as mentioned above can definitely work well when things are bad. A retraction, float can accomplish some of the same things while taking less energy and allowing you to stay more connected to the terrain.

I know it may work for bob, but I'd be careful of this advice,

"actively apply a little more pressure to the fronts of the skis"

In teaching alot of crud to upper level skiers (many with alot of race background or time skiing long straight skis), this is one of the things I've had to unteach. Many good skiers overload the shovel of the ski in mixed conditions and either cross tips or get throw over the bars. Bob says a little more pressure, and that may counter the tendency to get thrown in back seat in the crud. Actively adjusting balance in all directions is definitely part of the crud game. overpressuring in any one direction can spell trouble though. Stay centered, balanced and active.

Anyway, just a few more thoughts on one of my favorite topics.

Cheers, Holiday
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