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bumps on base under binding

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
A week and a half ago I got my skis stone ground (first time, after 1 1/2 seasons of skiing, totaling about 110 days on snow). Then I skied hard for two days, and today I waxed them in preparation for a very cold weekend coming up. On the bottom of one ski I now see bumps sticking up in the base material, just under the binding. This was not evident on the day I picked them up from the shop.

Could the shop have done this when they stone ground the skis, then did their wax job somehow cover it up?

Could I have done it when I waxed my skis today? All I did was apply wax, and brush them.

Are these skis just old and I need to replace them?

Should I just not worry about it?
post #2 of 29
Q1: Are the bumps where the screws are?

Q2: Assuming you were prepping with a really hard wax, how hot was your iron? For how long?

Of course it is all speculation here on the webz & I'm a wax/tune JONG - but it is all fun


(although at 110 days, I suspect most would agree you've already gotten fair value...)
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Well, these are Atomic bindings, so I have no idea where
the screws are.

Yes, hot wax, hot iron. No smoke, however. Could I have melted the base away???
post #4 of 29
How much base did the shop grind off? If they made the ptex base really thin by taking off too much material, it may make it more prone to bubbling up when the skis are waxed. All it would take is a thermal concentration of some sort (like near a screw hole or screw) to cause an oddball "local" effect like this.

What happens when you poke the bumps, does the base flatten back down at all?
post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
How much base did the shop grind off? If they made the ptex base really thin by taking off too much material, it may make it more prone to bubbling up when the skis are waxed. All it would take is a thermal concentration of some sort (like near a screw hole or screw) to cause an oddball "local" effect like this.
What happens when you poke the bumps, does the base flatten back down at all?
The bumps did not flatten back down. They felt firm.
However, it did not occur to me that they might be bubbles that might go down. Instead of scraping the bases, I just brushed them and put the skis out in the car.

Since they are now cold, if I bring them back inside and poke the bumps with my fingers, will I be able to tell anything??? OR do the skis need to be hot for me to figure this out?
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Since they are now cold, if I bring them back inside and poke the bumps with my fingers, will I be able to tell anything???
Probably not. It would most likely take hot skis and a pin punch or c-clamp.


Out of curiosity, as the wax cooled, did the edge pattern print through onto the surface?

Did the shop take the bindings off for any reason?
post #7 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Probably not. It would most likely take hot skis and a pin punch or c-clamp.


Out of curiosity, as the wax cooled, did the edge pattern print through onto the surface?

Did the shop take the bindings off for any reason?
Comprex, thanks for the help.
No, the shop just stone ground them, structured them (I guess), sharpened the edges, and waxed them. This is the first time these skis have ever been stone ground. I looked at them in the shop and they looked nice and smooth.

I did not see actual screw shapes, if that's what you mean by "edge pattern." But there were two round shapes spaced across the ski in the middle, and a long hot-dog shape a little farther down the ski, again spaced in the middle of its base. Or something like that. Under the binding. Very geometrical, not like a random bubble formation at all.
post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
I did not see actual screw shapes, if that's what you mean by "edge pattern."
No, I meant actual edge pattern at the edges of the wax, IOW a pattern like one of these


visible as the wax cooled.


Quote:
But there were two round shapes spaced across the ski in the middle, and a long hot-dog shape a little farther down the ski, again spaced in the middle of its base. Or something like that. Under the binding. Very geometrical, not like a random bubble formation at all.
Hunh. That little hot dog shape makes me no longer think this is -just- a heat (+thin base) issue. I suspect water ingress somewhere, that then went on to make vapor and separate the bases from the underlayer.

Is this on your old EDIT: 11:twenty somethings?

If it is what I think it is, my tactic would be to pierce, inject adhesive, clamp down (flatten). Retire skis in ~20 days.
post #9 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
No, I meant actual edge pattern at the edges of the wax, IOW a pattern like one of these


visible as the wax cooled.


Hunh. That little hot dog shape makes me no longer think this is -just- a heat (+thin base) issue. I suspect water ingress somewhere, that then went on to make vapor and separate the bases from the underlayer.

Is this on your old EDIT: 11:twenty somethings?

If it is what I think it is, my tactic would be to pierce, inject adhesive, clamp down (flatten). Retire skis in ~20 days.
They are my Atomic R11s. I love these skis. I bought them two seasons ago off a little old lady who bought them new and never skied them. I'll take them back to the shop and make your suggestion, and watch their faces. I trust these guys.
Thanks for the suggestions.
post #10 of 29
some stores still take off bindings and plates to grind skis it is possible that they retightened the screws to far/tight or mixed up the screw lengths?
post #11 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by waxman View Post
some stores still take off bindings and plates to grind skis it is possible that they retightened the screws to far/tight or mixed up the screw lengths?
If they're on plates, this scenario shouldn't occur (screws too long). Not sure about R11's though - I'm not an Atomic guru.
post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
If they're on plates, this scenario shouldn't occur (screws too long). Not sure about R11's though - I'm not an Atomic guru.
The screw-too-long usually makes just plain cone volcano bumps. I thought this might be a possibility when I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex
Did the shop take the bindings off for any reason?
but then she mentioned the little hot-dog shape.

Quote:
and a long hot-dog shape a little farther down the ski,
which, to my mind, shouts 'base/underlayer separation'

I am not a fan of the 'thermal sink' theory because the edges themselves are thermal sinks and the pattern of the edge steel under the base would have printed through into the wax, she doesn't appear to have noticed anything like that.
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
The screw-too-long usually makes just plain cone volcano bumps. I thought this might be a possibility when I said



but then she mentioned the little hot-dog shape.

which, to my mind, shouts 'base/underlayer separation'

I am not a fan of the 'thermal sink' theory because the edges themselves are thermal sinks and the pattern of the edge steel under the base would have printed through into the wax, she doesn't appear to have noticed anything like that.
At this point I think it's a case of base/underlayer separation" because of a too-hot iron due to me. I skied on them this weekend and it just got worse as the wax I put on wore down. I'm taking them in ttomorrow to get them fixed, if my shop can do it. In the meantime, I'll demo.

I thought if the iron/base interaction was too hot, it would produce steam. That's what I've read, anyway. There was no steam. Oh well. Live and learn.
post #14 of 29
Thread Starter 
Thanks, guys, for trying to help.
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Oh well. Live and learn.
Don't beat yourself up over it. It's much easier to do on older/thinner bases.
post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 
I need new skis anyway. But I hate making big mistakes, and
I fear this is one of those. I want those skis to last for days
when I choose to ski them.

Two guys in the shop at Stowe this weekend had never seen
anything like this base. They didn't know what to do with it.
post #17 of 29
The best I've been able to do with the pierce, glue syringe (Epiglass HT9000 with glue powder) and clamp method is get the person another 20 days on the skis.

Of course, that was their entire season and 3 days into their next one, so it worked out.
post #18 of 29
I think you're right that the wax would've smoked if the iron was too hot. In my experience, there is a fine margin between the correct temperature and then smoke. If you didn't see smoke, the iron was probably not too hot. From that point, the only way to do damage is to leave the iron in one spot for too long, but I am guessing that's not the case either.

Since it happened after a shop tune, I am guessing they took off enough material that the base got too thin and bubbled up from the heat of normal waxing..
post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I think you're right that the wax would've smoked if the iron was too hot. In my experience, there is a fine margin between the correct temperature and then smoke. If you didn't see smoke, the iron was probably not too hot. From that point, the only way to do damage is to leave the iron in one spot for too long, but I am guessing that's not the case either.

Since it happened after a shop tune, I am guessing they took off enough material that the base got too thin and bubbled up from the heat of normal waxing..
Well, these are Atomics. They had an odd problem before
I had them ground. The bases (the plastic part) had gotten
concave, as in "cupped."

When I'd iron the wax in, the iron's flat surface would not be
able to reach down onto the center of the ski's base very well.
When I'd scrape the wax, well, it was even worse, because
my scraper couldn't reach the wax in the middle of the base
at all. (I sharpen my plastic scraper to keep it flat, by the way.)

The guys at the shop told me they had run into this as a problem
with Atomics over the years. So I'm wondering if they ground a
lot off the bases in order to flatten them out, and if this then
put me unknowingly in danger of overheating the base when
I waxed them.

Has anyone else run into this problem with Atomics? If so, what
causes it? Should I avoid Atomics because of it?
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Has anyone else run into this problem with Atomics? If so, what
causes it? Should I avoid Atomics because of it?
Very common (at least it used to be). If you try and get it completely flat, you will have to take off a lot of ski. I don't think I'd let it deter me from all Atomics though.
post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
Very common (at least it used to be). If you try and get it completely flat, you will have to take off a lot of ski. I don't think I'd let it deter me from all Atomics though.
What causes it?
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
The best I've been able to do with the pierce, glue syringe (Epiglass HT9000 with glue powder) and clamp method is get the person another 20 days on the skis.

Of course, that was their entire season and 3 days into their next one, so it worked out.
How does this compare to cutting out the damaged base section and epoxying in a new one?
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
What causes it?
I don't know. Wouldn't want to make anything up. I'm quite certain that if you search you'll find threads about it where others speculate and make things up (and maybe someone who actually knows the answer will have given that to us as well).
post #24 of 29
You ground out a design feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
(and maybe someone who actually knows the answer will have given that to us as well).
Would you take Atomic's word for it?

http://web.archive.org/web/200601060...item.php?id=26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Skis
What is the reason some Atomic skis appear to have some concavity? With the wider ski geometries of modern carving skis, a slightly concave base around the tip and tail have a positive impact on tracking stability on straight runs, without any negative effect on turning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
When I'd iron the wax in, the iron's flat surface would not be
able to reach down onto the center of the ski's base very well.
The iron spans the concavity and the melt reaches in.

Quote:
When I'd scrape the wax, well, it was even worse, because
my scraper couldn't reach the wax in the middle of the base
at all. (I sharpen my plastic scraper to keep it flat, by the way.)
Flex the scraper with your thumbs and/or use fiber pads.
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
How does this compare to cutting out the damaged base section and epoxying in a new one?
Identical in wear, except I kept the hinging part.
post #26 of 29
Atomic is an Austrian brand, this is what they're top engineers had to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZTfaI_va-c
post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
You ground out a design feature.



Would you take Atomic's word for it?

http://web.archive.org/web/200601060...item.php?id=26
The iron spans the concavity and the melt reaches in.
Flex the scraper with your thumbs and/or use fiber pads.
I did flex the scraper, and always wondered if I was doing damage. Sometimes the wax came off with some black in it. The base is black. Didn't know if that was "dirt" or "base" I was taking off.
Do you take Atomic's word for it?
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Do you take Atomic's word for it?
I have no reason not to.
post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
I have no reason not to.
Just printed that Atomic website page up. I'm taking it with me to the shop tomorrow. They ground out the concavity, that's for sure. They should know in the future that the mfr means it to be there.
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