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PSIA standards for ISIA - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Without wanting to get into the old chestnut pissing contest between certification systems (although it is fun at times [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img] ) - here is the ISIA web address:

http://www.isiaski.org/edit_site/int...ro_english.asp

Make of it what you will.
post #32 of 52
Also, here is a guideline of ISIA standards (its a little hard to find on the site)

http://www.isiaski.org/edit_site/pro...ip_english.asp

Plus, the last paragraph outlines the guidelines of the stamp:

http://www.isiaski.org/edit_site/pro...on_english.asp

Particularly:
Quote:
§ 4
Placing of Stamps
It is the member association’s duty to only give the stamps to their highest qualified ski instructors.
As far as I can tell, there is no quantifiable standard required, hence the above paragraph. As such I can't see any reason why PSIA 3 shouldn't be eligible for the stamp.
post #33 of 52
So the timed run second language & second discipline is a must for ISIA???

That matches with what I had heard... as does the avy stuff...
post #34 of 52
Larry W-
On one point you are quite wrong- the money in Europe is much better than here in the States. I have never made so much for doing so little as I did while working in Switzerland. The whole environment for a working pro in Europe is heads above what we think is good in the States. Many instrs make enough during the winter in Europe to afford taking the summers off. I make good money in Vail, but not enough to even dream of that scenario.
While on the other hand, after busting my hump as the Ski School Manager of one of the largest ski areas in NZ, I lost a huge amount of money, given the prevailing exchange rates. The sword has two edges.


Trying to equivalate various levels of cert across international boundaries (or even within the various divisions of PSIA) is a fruitless task. It's comparing apples and oranges. In so many cases, the demands or limitations of a particular country influence those requirements.

I will not dispute the fact that PSIA has dropped from being a very highly respected player on the international scene of ski teaching to being the equivalent of a third world country, but I believe that is going through a positive change, at least here in RM. But as a national organization, we have almost 2 decades of decline to reverse.
It isn't going to happen overnight, nor is it going to be painless for those now coming through the system. They are going to have to become the standard bearers for the future. And to meet that challenge, they are going to have to be better, and better prepared, than any of us who came before.

But what exists in most locker rooms right now is a poor level of mediocrity. Sure, there are some superstars, but on an average, WE SUCK! So we need to spotlight those superstars, and get them actively involved in the cultural change which must occur. For if they are dragged down into the mire by the current paradigm, there is not much of a future to look forward to, as either a career for the pro, or any level of quality for the consumer.

I'm not going to say this is or isn't true of other nationalities. But every school, regardless of its nationality, is bound to have a certain percentage of weaker instrs. In a school like Vail, Aspen, Deer Valley, etc,, the international instr will tend to be of a high quality, simply because these schools will pick and choose who they will hire from a multitude of applications. And there are but a few areas these top pro's wish to work at. And not nearly so many "average" instrs make the attempt to work overseas.
Could it be that your frustration with the international instrs stems from the fact that many of them ARE better than our own domestic product? Then put the responsibility upon yourself, to become the best instr and skier YOU can be, with no limitations.
Now let's be honest, sometimes Aussies are not known for their diplomacy or tact. But I have heard just as many boorish American instrs in NZ, expounding on how great their areas are at home, and making broad generalizations about their quality compared to the domestic instr. The boot kicks BOTH directions!

Disski-
I wouldn't be so worried about pleasing your instrs by assuming a particular (Austrian/Australian/Canadian) stance. Good skiing is good skiing. And as is usually found out too late, the real truth lies somewhere in the middle of all these various explanations. All are likely working toward the same goal. Do you ever hear a WC racer expounding that he wants to ski more like another nationality? Usually, they want to emulate a particular skier.
The Austrians are copying Thomas Grandi of Canada in GS, and trying to understand the SL magic of Bode Miller, while the entire WC is watching Stephan Eberharter in DH. It has nothing to do with nationality, just who is the best! Allow yourself to develop your own "style", based on sound fundamentals. Then you'll grow as a skier.

:
post #35 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
I'm a level III and have an ISIA Pin/Passport and no mention has ever been made to me of avalanche course work or speaking a second language.

Hmmmm - well Rusty I think maybe you got your ISIA pin after 2000 & certainly more than 2 years have passed since then so how does that match with this [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
MINIMUM STANDARD OF TRAINING FOR MEMBERSHIP OF ISIA


2. Minimum requirements and examinations
2.1 Conditions for admission to examinations.


- In addition to a main language the ski instructor should be able to teach in a second language.
- The ski instructor must have some ability in a second discipline (e.g.: telemark/snowboard)


2.2 Examinations

Parts of examination:
- Second discipline


2.2.3 Theory

Oral and or written examination

Elements of examination:
- Alpine hazards and avalanche knowledge.

2.2.4 Alpine hazards and avalanche knowledge (within organised ski area).

Practical examinations
- Judgement of avalanche danger
- Guiding a group off piste (marked routes)
- Use of avalanche search equipment
- Orientation (map reading, compass, altimeter)
- Accident procedures (first aid, rescue and immediate action)




6. Transitory Regulations

In accordance with article 18 of the ISIA statutes, any member not in possession of the minimum standard at the time of activation of these regulations will have a time period of two years to conform. If the conformity has not been achieved within this time period the member will lose its membership

The regulations concerning the minimum standard will come into force after its adoption through the meeting of delegates.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(Decided by the delegates assembly in Sierra Nevada – Spain on may 11th 2000).
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Now let's be honest, sometimes Aussies are not known for their diplomacy or tact.
Awwwrr VSP you where doing so well until that statement. But just to be consistent ….

Who really gives a flying Fcccckkk about yo bro n ho skiing accreditation. There is dem good guys\girls n there’s a whole lotta dem free loader types all around the world in SS.

Da public pays the same rate for all of em. THAT IS THE OUTRAGE.

ISIA is seen as a must get in OZ because it gives us a ticket to the world of skiing and for people that love to ski, who are born in a flat dry land at the arse end of the world, the ISIA path is a huge goal and traditionally only total commitment would make it obtainable. It is different for the USA crew. You guys have SNOW n MOUNTAINS in abundance n so you are not really fussed about getting out n about in the world as you already see your great nation as the centre of the skiing universe. (Not correct but it is certainly worth a visit )

So really ski instruction is simply a good lurk for the majority. A professional (in the true sense of the word professional) ski instruction career is bloody hard work. A career that one must sell their soul for or be born to the culture or know no other means of making a living that returns the personal rewards they seek.

The higher the standard required to pass a professional qualification, the more robust the profession. Pretty simple really.

Currently resorts appear to favour a SS environment that in the majority employs seasonal skiing waiters. Resorts source instructors from the most cost affective source, not the most accredited source. The current environment in modern SS of being seen to promote learning whilst on the other hand making the work environment so uncertain by maintaining the self defeating policy of “order by mediocrity” is the major contradiction of Ski Instructing.

There are indeed many more meaningful fronts to raise a stink on than who has the best accreditation process.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]

Gone surfing
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Nettie:
in Australia they have a hiring clinic ((PSIA level 1), level 2 (ISIA) and level 3 (trainer).

.
Not quite Nettie .... hiring clinic, level 1 exam, level 2 exam, level 3 exam, trainer, examiner...

Not really sure about how they get between 3 & trainer & examiner... but they give the trainer/examiner mob horrid little APSI trainer jackets that some of them delight to wear at various times....
post #38 of 52
And I still wonder about some of the bods from hiring clinic that they let teach....

Last season one resort was rumored to have pressed wanna be snow board instructors who had never skied into ski instructing... 1 week later they were teaching skiing :
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
Not quite Nettie .... hiring clinic, level 1 exam, level 2 exam, level 3 exam, trainer, examiner...
Ok, so I missed out a few levels for the sake of clarity. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:
Da public pays the same rate for all of em. THAT IS THE OUTRAGE.
Yah!

If you want a system to make you dedicated and broke (actually best to start priviliged) try BASI (UK). We have no snow but we do have our own accredidation process with numerous courses that cost a fortune. Why?

I didn't do BASI, not because of the cost but because of availabilty of courses. It is still considered a bit of a club.

Until the EC opened up European work practices, I had no opportunity to work as an instructor without full cert. or money.

Most english speakers in Europe were given short shrift by foreign ski schools as not enough instructors spoke adequate english. I see some of the second language issues in the ISIA qualification as being a way for foreign SS to restrict access to foreign workers again, to claw back some of the business they lost by not providing an adequate service in the first place.
post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
[/qb]
Hmmmm - well Rusty I think maybe you got your ISIA pin after 2000 & certainly more than 2 years have passed since then so how does that match with this [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
MINIMUM STANDARD OF TRAINING FOR MEMBERSHIP OF ISIA
[/quote]

All I was required to do to get the passport and stamp was to send a check for $20.00 and a passport photo to PSIA in Lakewood Colorado.

As I mentioned nothing else was asked of me.

As a matter of fact;

1. I do have avalanche training.

2. I was certified as a paramedic and worked as a pro patroller previous to teaching.

3. I do speak a second language.

4. I snowboard a little and skate ski as well.

I want to reiterate no query was made about any of this.

Disski I'm not sure I understand your contention. My passport was issued in 2004. If the requirements you mention are in fact in place I think I would have two years to "prove" I have the course work that you so diligently listed.

I honestly only only got the passport because I like the ISIA pin!
post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by vail snopro / ric reiter:
Disski-
I wouldn't be so worried about pleasing your instrs by assuming a particular (Austrian/Australian/Canadian) stance. Good skiing is good skiing. And as is usually found out too late, the real truth lies somewhere in the middle of all these various explanations. All are likely working toward the same goal. Do you ever hear a WC racer expounding that he wants to ski more like another nationality? Usually, they want to emulate a particular skier.
The Austrians are copying Thomas Grandi of Canada in GS, and trying to understand the SL magic of Bode Miller, while the entire WC is watching Stephan Eberharter in DH. It has nothing to do with nationality, just who is the best! Allow yourself to develop your own "style", based on sound fundamentals. Then you'll grow as a skier.

:
Read this bit again Ric...
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
but he stops himself unless I let myself get away from the 'Australian' position I am supposed to ski in
he is a racer(beat the CSIA4 pace-setters by 1 second in his exam last season) & so as long as it works for me he doesn't care... only hassles on the arms dropping back or down...

The 'Australian' position I am supposed to use is what the guys have decided is well balanced for me... They are both racers & the one I used to ski with at Falls was an examiner there... no-one is too fussy as long as I am balanced & well stacked so I can ski well... let me breach those parameters & I am fair game...

I have one Aussie & one Canadian atm - but the race guys are always watching me & they are a mixed bunch... Comments only come when I lose what they see as 'my' stance & style...

The biggest problem re the mixed instructor week is I tend to unconciously attempt to 'mimic' what I see.... this can be confusing.... the 2 racers are not THAT different... but the Austrian skis with a LOT more braquage(sp?) & that did throw me for a bit... also he has more vertical extension/flexion than I am used to. I spent 3 days in a group lesson with him & the race dept guys got cross because I lost my 'hip into next turn' or something... My main instructor had to explain that I needed to simply revise some stuff - because he knows that learning new things throws my movement patterns temporarily...

I am so confused atm about how I actually skied last season that I worry I will never be able to do it next season... The least 'cerebral' season of teaching I have ever had & I feel like someone stole my teddy bear or something!
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Larry W:
My gripe is with the people who come to the states and tell us we are all wrong!
A very good friend stated the level three PSIA exam was some where in between their level two and three in Australia.
Larry, what is the problem here? You may be mistaken in your rememberance of the levels but in Australia they have a hiring clinic ((PSIA level 1), level 2 (ISIA) and level 3 (trainer).

It is a complement if your friend stated the PSIA 3 was between their level 2 & 3.

One thing that IS a concern is the number of unqualified instructors working at resorts. I had to work with an American ex-racer at school half-term week who had 'taught' fulltime for two years in the US.

We have the kids for the whole week. I had to field several complaints from his lower intermediate class that, although they went on lots of exciting runs, all he did was ski at the front. They certainly hadn't the skills to SKI the terrain they were on and they also complained he wasn't giving any instruction.

I know lack of qualifications is common in the US and that it doesn't mean that there are not hundreds of fantastic instructors. But, in Europe and most other places I know you have to do more than shadow a couple of classes to get a job in ski school.

In Andorra, the minimum standard to work in ski school is a CSIA 2 + and additional five day course.

In the US, it appears that big business is trying to force the cost of instruction down so far that it is compromising your professionalism in many areas.

Maybe to increase the OVERALL perception of ski instruction in the USA, get the PSIA and ski schools together to require people to be qualified and hence initiate the requirement for the resort operators to pay enough so that people could take qualifications and keep up with current trends in teaching.

Standardisation is hard in such a large country but having different arrangements in each region can also confuse the PERCEPTIONS of outsiders who, perhaps, only come across one or two instructors at a time over an long periods.

Quote:
Guys you are gusts of our resorts and government. As I remember in grade school the biggest loud moulth was normally full of it.
That cuts both ways and not an argument for this thread.


Quote:
...but you and I KNOW THE MONEY IS BETTER IN THE STATES!!!!!
Having read the threads about people financing the mountain to teach skiiing and having taught in Europe, I doubt this very much. Nothing to do with the current exchange rates either.

I think people are naturally curious about how each of the national bodies handle qualification and the exact standards can be hard to ascertain. The CSIA have now made ONE video tape with demos of exam standards instead of three previously, maybe the Aussie's have one as well. Does the PSIA have similar? We could always load up some for a better informed discussion.

Another interesting area is the lesson format prefered by client and offered by the mountain to fulfill this need. Canadian MA focuses on group analysis, PSIA RM on individual analysis.
Group instruction is more popular in Canada and Europe.
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
Disski I'm not sure I understand your contention. My passport was issued in 2004. If the requirements you mention are in fact in place I think I would have two years to "prove" I have the course work that you so diligently listed.

I honestly only only got the passport because I like the ISIA pin!
No contention Rusty... just you were so arrogantly insisting that it was not so because you had not heard of it....

Meanwhile as ant had pointed out APSI had been pushing all of this - so last season the level 2 candidates were doing their avy training as prescribed above

No - if you got the pin in 2004 then it was expected that PSIA had examined you on those areas - check it out - it is minimum standards for admission to examinations & required examination...

reread the thing the 2 years was if you had it when it came into being in 2000
post #44 of 52
Rusty, Diss is correct in the ISIA requirements. In Oz we must provide yearly current documented proof that we meet the ISIA requirements (avi n first aid).

If one obtained ISIA membership prior to 2000 then the new requirements of a second language are not upheld. (avi and first aid are).

I can only surmise that the PSIA RM holds current documented proof of your ISIA requirements OR does not enforce them (which would be very dodgy indeed). There is no other place in the world that I have heard of where you can just send $20 to an association and receive the ISIA membership stamp.

But who knows, maybe the PSIA has done a deal with ISIA and the new requirements do not apply to PSIA-RM.
post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by Larry W:
Since I opened this can of worms, let me clarify my position. There are differences between the systems in each country. My gripe is with the people who come to the states and tell us we are all wrong! I here it all of the time Australians are better than yanks, etc.. A very good friend stated the level three PSIA exam was some where in between their level two and three in Australia. Guys you are gusts of our resorts and government. As I remember in grade school the biggest loud moulth was normally full of it. I am not saying that great instructors don’t come from all over the world, but your hosts do not want to always endure your constant verbal mimicking I am aware of the Auzzie demo team member who failed TA, and would pick him as a great trainer for me! (I know good from bad!). If things are so bad in the states, why purchase the ticket to get here? There is Europe or Canada, but you and I KNOW THE MONEY IS BETTER IN THE STATES!!!!!
so why did you start this topic, if all you wanted to do was bag Australians? Why didn't you just start out with what you've posted above?

ISIA are bringing in new requirements to get their stamp. It is entirely possible that they will require holders of the stamp to satisfy those requirements. If PSIA does not require ISIA standards of their full certs, then it is possible, but I hope not likely, that the full certs will no longer qualify for their stamp.

I think your original post was to start an argument. I also think you've succeeded admirably.

btw, I am a member of PSIA. I am not a member of APSI.
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by disski:
No contention Rusty... just you were so arrogantly insisting that it was not so because you had not heard of it....
I don't know what was arrogant.

It was not so.

I sent a copy of my level III cert card, a $20.00 check, and a 1" x 1" passport photo.

That was it.

Now if you were in my shoes would you believe the requirements you insist exist are reality?

It wasn't so.....oh, the requirements may be written somewhere but I'm trying to explain reality.

One check, a photo, and that's it.

I tell you what I'll do. I'll promise to never bring my level III PSIA cert to Australia because it's clear to me your pros are far superior to any professional we produce here in the USA.
post #47 of 52
post #48 of 52
Oh & it is cheque.... you just confirmed that no checks were done....

Ok guys how do we email this thread to ISIA?
post #49 of 52
Now, now- play nice you two... After all, the percentage of sucky instrs in Aus is about the same as it is here. It just so happens they are the same group, traveling back and forth...

ISIA requirements? Get real... no one has asked for any credential from them in decades... But they'll take anybody's money...When I go to Europe, I just show them my PSIA card, and I get what ever the deal is... ISIA doesn't really have any clout! So who cares if you are a member, or what their requirements are?

And the standards... I mean c'mon- when was the last time there was an avy in Australia? And their second language must be English, cause to hear them speak it, it sure sounds that way. First aid? That's who can bring you the first beer after you've fallen, right?

See Rusty- I get to DISS on them cause I paid my dues... I was married to one for 6 years...

And if anybody takes this post seriously, you must be one of the less intellectual posters from down undah!

post #50 of 52
Thanks for talking some sense ric - this pissing contest is starting to piss me off. Sure each system has its high & low points but in the end I believe the systems serve their home country best. Apples & Oranges.

I am internally involved in a similar debate and I think the resolution is going to be that it will be recommended that instructors participate in their domestic system, as the emphases are particular to the domestic market.
post #51 of 52
Quote:
Originally posted by vail snopro / ric reiter:
And if anybody takes this post seriously, you must be one of the less intellectual posters from down undah!

Awww - cmon Ric I had my heart set on that lesson with Rusty
post #52 of 52
Quote:
would suggest it might well be for the same reason PSIA-E has a level IV cert. It corresponds to PSIA-RM's Trainer Accred.
As Oboe said, we don't have a Level IV. The paths beyond Level III are DCL (which is an end in itself and is essentiall a "travelling clinician and an employee of PSIA-E) and Dev Team which then leads to ETS (Education Training Squad) and then Examiner. Dev Team is also an employee of PSIA-E.

See Certification poster PSIA-E

And, Certification ladder article

There has been some talk of adding a Trainers Accreditation in the east. I'd be all for it.

Bob
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