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more video (follow up to video to pick apart)

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Here is some more video of me this week working on some of the previous tips. previous thread

clip 1
clip 2
clip 3

Same video, different server

clip 1
clip 2
clip 3

What I see so far is I still need to work on long leg/short leg (more extension), and less tip lead.

Am I moving in the right direction?

I spent most of this weekend playing with this and trying to get it into muscle memory. (perfect practice?)

Hopefully this is not only helping me but those of you who are working on MA at the upper levels and seeing what different instructors see in the movement patterns.

Sorry for the not as good clips, Unfortunatly The camera person in these clips was not quite as practiced with action videos.

[ November 05, 2002, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #2 of 30
D. Chan

I won't offer any critique but just want to say again thanks for posting the video clips. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It is a great diagnostic tool for those who are confident enough in themselves to have their skiing commented on as well as those who can watch, read the comments that follow and also learn somthing.

Thanks again. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #3 of 30
Nice turns, Dchan.

Looks to me as though your extension is occurring more as an initiating activity than to maintain ski-snow contact while the feet move away from the body. The result is a little "pop" upward instead of a progressively longer leg. You need more patience as you enter the turn. This is more a nuance thing than a major hurdle.
post #4 of 30

I answered your track thread before seeing these videos. Nice turns.

Am I seeing a wider stance when you turn right? Do I see your legs change their width when you turn left?

As I said in the track thread, try to weight both skiis. When you work one leg against the other, the transition will be smoother. You can see only one track in som eo fyour turns.

Minor adjustments that should come when you "face the force" of your turn with the weight issue, your upper body will be aligned with the hill (shoulders/hips/arms parallel with the slope. What I mean by "face the force", is look at the point of your next turn. Where are you feeling the hill? Accept the feeling, don't brace against it with you outside ski. Accepting the feeling will move your center of mass over the skiis (weight) and align your upper body.

A second minor adjustment that will come with the smooth transition is your arms will be more in front. Try the exercise of holding palm down your poles across the front of you at the handle and basket. It may feel wide, but it isn't. Keep the horizontal pole in front just below eye level. You will feel/see your upper body alignment through the turn, and you will also feel the inside of your body leading the turn.

Thanks for putting your videos on the site. It's fun watching. Give us feedback on our comments.
post #5 of 30
Hi dchan, your skiing looks great. Dragging your poles in the snow may be just a habbit, I know some skiers who use that pole drag as feelers, but it makes the pole plant/touch a lacadaisical looking exercise.

As KeeTov said, with aggressive pole work it will look like you are clawing your way down the hill and it will feel that way instead of riding.

But 97% of skiers would be in heaven if they could make turns like those in the video :

post #6 of 30
Thread Starter 


yes I noticed the difference in stance left and right too when I looked at the videos. I think I'm doing it the same but when I look at the video : A case of the video not lying. You can count on me working on that next year.

Where I'm looking? I was trying to "look" at the "apex" of where my next turn would be. I guess I'm still sorting out that one. Too many things to think about while skiing! Hopefully it's getting better.


Pole drag was part of an exercise to try to get my shoulders more "parallel" aligned with my feet, knees, and hips. Ultimatly the slope. These were exercise runs so it was part conscious and part habit for while making practice runs. Didn't realize I was doing it and for some reason I didn't even see it in the video. Thanks for pointing it out.


I think I was trying to "exagerate" the edge change to help me get on that new edge faster instead of letting it drift like I was doing in the previous video. Overdoing it to get it into muscle memory [img]smile.gif[/img] . Thanks for the note.

[ April 21, 2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #7 of 30
In clip 1, and the end of the turn, your inside foot is too far in front of you and it's causing you to be back. I think you refer to this as tip lead.

Coming thru the arc of the turn, you need to work on pulling your inside foot back under your hips and keeping it tipped to the little toe side. The visual cue is that the toes of your ski boots should be even, fore aft.

The other clips are the same - you're getting back in your turns.
post #8 of 30
Oh yeah, I just watched them again. Your inside foot is way too far in front and it's causing you to be back.
post #9 of 30
The new videos are cool, I'm going to comment based on what I said in the last thread.

Obviously, you have high degree of carving here. You and your skis make the snow look awfully soft, if it isn't, its a testiment to your edging.

I wish you had taken another clip of yourself on the terrain from last time. You're making much larger turns in these videos than last time, so its almost hard to compare the two. Its hard to tell with the new video, but they look kind of "park and ride"ish. Your turns aren't real big, but those 170 Cross' have a pretty tight sidecut radius. My question is, can you make a shorter version of these turns with similar levels of carving? While these "railed" turns work great on groomed (its pretty much all I do when I'm on groomed because they take little effort), they obviously don't work in bumps or anything remotely steep like your last video.

In this video, you use the turn radius to control your speed. When the terrain in the last video required a lower speed, you used skiding to control speed instead of shorter carved turns. If your season still isn't over, have your camera man film you doing some shorter turns like you'd use in the bumpier or steeper terrain of last video, but instead on groomed snow. The shorter turns will make it more apparent what degree you are getting your c.o.m. into the turn.
post #10 of 30
Thread Starter 
Thanks Matter,

Alas my season has ended unless I can come up with enough money to travel somewhere.

Unfortunatly the conditions from last week (spring mush) to this week, (Winter firm pack cord) make for a hard side by side comparison.

Later in the day on Saturday I did play with much shorter turns on the same pitch (gave myself about half the width corridor you see me making turns in) and tried to shorten my turns and carve them. I'm sure there was more skidding but not the "drift to edge set" you saw in the previous video, (confirmed looking at my tracks however by the time I got back to them on the next run they were wiped out by other skiers and boarders) The trenches were maybe a little more even (two footed) and I felt as the day went on I was getting more progressive with my edging but unfortunatly I did not have a camera person to tape me.
post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 
Found this clip on the tape. Shorter scarvy turns. Not sure if this was an improvement from last week or not.

Submitted for your viewing and evaluation as well.



[ November 05, 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #12 of 30

I think you can clearly see the upward movement of your shoulders to initiate a turn, and the dragging of your upper pole, slanting your body.

Still nice looking turns.

In other threads, it is mentioned to make slow turns. Be more patient at the top of the turn, transfer weight boot to boot, not upward. As for your upper body, "hug" your next turn as if it were a small child. This might get you aligned with the hill and ready to move forward into the next turn.

I'm trying to come up with visualization ideas. If you have already been aligned in your equpment, and have had extensive instruction, and still can't do it... maybe mileage, maybe something in the learning process.

I remember the first year I was introduced to "long leg-short leg", I was told to ride a bicycle. Yes, I can see a long and short leg on a bicycle. The other thing I saw (which was wrong), was the cirular motion of the feet. I shuffled my feet for 3 years before someone corrected it!

The next time you are on snow with someone, have them say their instruction in different ways.

Again, nice turns. Thanks for giving us a chance to comment.
post #13 of 30
Hi dchan,
Again..pretty nice skiing. I haven't looked at
the last clip yet..with some shorter radius turns
but the previous are pretty much medium sized turns. Those hands..comfortably tilting the
shoulders (and upper body) down the terrain...at
least perpendicular to the terrain...will keep
you out of the backseat and will make life easy
for the lower body to do its thing...
Great idea and job on the whole thing.....
post #14 of 30
...glad you got the last clip in dchan...looks
ok...How DID IT FEEL?
Mixing up longer-radius turns with your short-radius turns is great way to discover if everything's flowing too.
post #15 of 30
dchan- Good turns! I also would say it takes someone with a lot of self confidence to post video and let everyone pick it apart.

I see a lot of things in your skiing that I have worked on in mine. I will pass along a few things that have helped me and I must give credit to Bob who was such a help.

The first thing I saw was a little "folding up" of your lower body during the course of a turn. I would suggest you are a little "countered" and the closing of your hips/knees is an attempt to create edge angle as opposed to tipping your inside leg. I have a tendency to do the same thing.

I have worked hard to start the turn tall and finish the turn tall. Another way of describing this is to finish a turn in a neutral position. The key to tightening a turn while getting tall is to progressively tip the inside ski. It also helps me to feel as though I am driving my outside ski ahead while pulling my inside ski back. Getting "tall" while turning squares my hips, thus eliminating excess tip lead.

As stated, these were drills I worked on with Bob B and they really helped me to get "squared up" on my skis. I hope this is of help to you.
post #16 of 30
dchan- YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK! Good skiing!

Clip1- Like to see you use the range of motion in your legs MORE. Same comments I made before about the lengthing of the outside leg at the top of the turn. You are starting to accomplish but MORE!
I like the ski path and the active tipping you have incorperated. I think if you allowed your release to be a little bit more towards the tips (in this size turn) You would be able to continue to shape the turn more with the legs and not get the hip to far inside effecting balance and causing you to drift aft in you stance.

Clip2- As above think about the release towards the tips. As you do this in a right turn keep turn the legs to the right as you start tipping the ankles and legs to the left. This will allow you to shape the turn more for speed control and allow a smooth conection from turn to turn with out the slight pause traverse that shows now.

Clip3- Fuller range of motion (explore)You show a quick up. Meter the lengthing and shortening of the legs over the whole turn. This abrupt up can cause a lightning of the skis allowing them to drift on you if your not managing the pressure smoothly.

Clip4- Hey this gave me some hope I was on the right track. In this clip with a steeper pitch and more variable snow the consequenses start to show up. The quick up in clip 3 shows here and results in a push of the tail causing it to take a wider path, you then lose some speed control from shaping and try to get it from skiding. This works but then does not allow you to move as easily from turn to turn causing a pause (slight travers) to get things lined up again. The range I mentioned in one of the other clips gives you more difficulty in this snow condition as it looks like you get a little stiff legged causing some loss of ski snow contact and thus more loss of speed control by not being able to cleanly guide the skis from turn to turn.

Dchan- General observation: You seem to settle back in many turns work on stance balance drills to keep you moving with the skis. (straight run hops, hop turns, 1000 steps, skating) Work on a wide range of motion in all activities. Keep your inside foot back this will help your stance as well. THe lead change should be small yours is some times large. Start all movements at the feet and work up, sometimes I see you hip move more than your legs. I agree someone said ski slow, practice all the drills and movements SLOW. (BUT) I think for you I would like to see you push your limits for the dynamics and ski FAST! Get outside you comfort level from time to time.

These clips were great, but as we know video does not give the whole picture. It is easy to sit here and type when I am not skiing it with you!!! So understand I think overall this is some great skiing that you should be proud of. I am also impressed with you knowledge, commitment and improvement. OUTSTANDING! One last disclaimer these are only my observation of those specific turns. Keep working and good luck.
post #17 of 30
Dchan, you got all the good advice of what to do with your feet and skis, but it looks to me that in the process of concentrating on your feet you have neglected your upper body.

Get those damn poles out of the snow and reach alittle for your pole touch/plant

post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
Just some thoughts coming from other posts..

Would Tuck turns as an exercise be any help?
post #19 of 30
Dchan- Sorry I did not mention tuck turns they would be an excellent activity for tipping of the lower legs, be careful not to lead them with the hip. I would also incoperate skiing in and out of the tuck turns. 4 turns in a tuck, 4 turns out, 4 turns in etc... Then change the radius.
post #20 of 30

I think you are showing a lot of improvement in these clips and getting great ideas from the group.

I was interested in what Todo said, "As you do this in a right turn keep turning the legs to the right as you start tipping the ankles and legs to the left." Does not tipping involve rotation of the leg in the same direction?

How does it relate to Bob B.'s millisecond of neutral concept?

Others have noted that pressure and poles are not contributing to turn flow. Something the other Bob Barnes taught was to keep the movement of the pole basket in time with the feet in all turns. He started the progression with a double pole swing and touch.

Do you ever get out on skiboards? I would recommend it. I think they would help you move more intuitively.

I join the others in appreciation for showing us your movies. It would be helpful for all of us to share our videos and get comments.

I see your files are located on another web site. What if someone doesn't have a web site or the storage capacity to do that?

[ April 23, 2002, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: nolobolono ]
post #21 of 30
Thread Starter 

I have space at my ISP however I am getting ready to move off them and into my own system. Videos unfortunatly take a lot of space. Before editing that very first video in the previous thread was 180MB! (this of course is raw data not compressed) After trimming off the excess, and compressing the file to an MPEG it is still 1.6 MB

The other files are in the same range. The clips for the tracks thread are 15 and 8 MB. Most ISP's only offer 5 MB it would very quickly eat up most peoples space.

During the summer I will hopefully be able to bring up second "content" server and may be able to offer the bears some space to house some stuff. I'm still playing with how to do this.
post #22 of 30
Thread Starter 
Thanks. That confirms another part of the MA>progression for me. Another trick to add to my bag. Now to try it.
post #23 of 30
Thanks for the extra video dchan.

I waited to comment because I feel like a broken record. But I still feel my comments from your first thread hold true. Your stance and turn entry seem to be limiting your ability to bring the c.o.m. inside the turn, which in turn limits your ability to narrow the turning radius of the skis by increased angulation. In order to make short turns, you compensate by pivoting the skis at the top of the turn.

Your stance and 2 footed turn entry work for the park and ride carves on the first three videos, but when it comes time to try to "shore up" the turn radius, it falls short.

I hate to say this, but pick up the Harald Harb Anyone can be an Expert 2 book if you haven't already. While I really disagree with a lot of the stuff in the book, the drills and theory are excellent. I hate his boot touching stance and drills, but his series of motions is great. The one thing Harb does well is gets skiers started in the right direction - that is with a solid short radius turn. While I hated it at the time, I think the tigher stance is probably key in teaching skiers to get out over their feet. After you've got the basic turn initiation move down, you don't have to be tight stanced anymore. I can do almost all the Harb drills (with the exception of skiing on 1 foot - I suck at that) on my 84mm waisted, 117mm tipped fat skis. My boots NEVER touch, and my skis rarely do.

The real problem today is that most people learn to carve by big park and ride turns, I know I did. The new skis do these turns practically automatically. You get a little speed, and throw both skis on edge and hang on. The series of movements in a big park and ride turn doesn't translate well into shorter turns. You try to keep tipping the skis further to tighten the turn, but it doesn't work if you can't get out over the skis EARLY (ie at the beginning) of the turn. Harb fixes this by starting people on a correct short turn, and then lengthens it.

Anyway, thats what I see, and it surprises me that no instructors agree. Just for kicks, spend an hour or two next year trying some of the Harb drills with a tighter stance. One or two turns might be all it takes for the movement to click, and then you can go back to your regular stance and setup.
post #24 of 30
Nolo- You got me! Not haveing skied in a month I am having a hard time to type my thoughts. I do I agree that tipping of the legs does involve rotation. However I still feel I am able to guide my skis to the right as I start tipping the legs to the left. More important is just the idea that edge angle should not be still building or even static at the end of the turn. Max edge angle should have been attained around the apex and we should be letting go of the edge. I just saw in Dchan skiing of a lot of edge angle being held at the end causing the park and ride that people have mentioned. The idea is to still be shaping the turn to the right for speed control but letting go of some of the edge angle so you control pressure and don't get all the build up that causes the chatter or ski at the end of the turn.

Dchan- A activity to feel this is have someone draw a line down the center of a trail. Now ski smedium turns across the line trying to have the ski's cross the line on all 4 edges (flat) while still shaping. Do this at a slow speed. Then pick up the speed and do this again. I have had great success smoothing out peoples turns and getting ride of the holding on or pause in peoples skiing doing this activity. IT IS HARD! VERY HARD but I like the feeling I get doing this then going back to skiing as the legs seem much more active, less holding on and more conection from turn to turn.

Nolo- I hope that explained it a little better?
post #25 of 30
That's better, Todo.
post #26 of 30
what e said!
post #27 of 30
dchan, verrry nice skiing. I like this set of turns more than the other clip.
It looks like the drills are paying back.
what Ott said about the poles is true, but you behave more naturally here that before.
Also, a thing I always envied other skiers, the
capability of skiing slow turns like you do!
post #28 of 30
Thread Starter 
moving to the top but need to fix the video clip on this one too.
Grrrr [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ November 05, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #29 of 30
Thread Starter 
The links are fixed. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #30 of 30
Hi Dchan. I guess most of us are just lucky we don't have video to post. Nice strong skiing.

I'm gonna try to keep it simple. Something to play with. Reverseing 180 degrees your extention and flexion. In other words, make a few turns really tall through neutral, then try reversing that. Make some turns being as flexed through, then to initiate start slowly extending and engaging your new outside leg, actively pushing it away from you all the while tipping your inside foot and gently extending it also. The idea being that as you pass through the belly of the turn you are as long as you can be from your outside foot to inside shoulder. Push that outside foot away from you. I find this really engages the edge early and loads the ski. Tipping the inside ski allows fine tuning of the edge and turn shape. As the pressure in the turn builds slowly alow the legs to relax and become shortest through neutral. Try getting them really short. Let the pressure at the end of the turn shorten your legs. Soon as they cross under, start pushing or extending them to the side, becoming long again through the middle of the turn. 180 degrees from what I saw in your 1,2,3 videos. I too constanly work to overcome a pop through neutral and initiation.

I agree with everyone else, those who post their video are brave and deserve our respect and thanks. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ November 05, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Ric B ]
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