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WV Backcountry

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Here are a couple of pics of me in my 'backyard'.

I boot packed it, with my rock skis (Troublemakers). Suggestions for a Randonee set-up? For this kind of terrain....sorry, I can't tele.

There is steeper stuff, just not enough snow cover, today!



post #2 of 29
Looks like a beautiful spot!
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
There is a lot of this type terrain near where I live. Hundreds of miles of old logging and mining roads.

About 200 verticle feet lower than the second pic is a 'horse' trail. I would like to ski the whole mountain. There is at least 500 ft. of vertical at this spot. There are many more places that I would like to access that have more like 1000 vertical feet. The terrain would probably blow most peoples minds, on what WV has to offer, in the BC.

Over Thanksgiving, Me and the Mrs. went to Whitegrass. She liked it!

I'm sure she could get into the BC thing. Especially the more XC aspect. (Then she can take lots of pics!)

Would a Karhu Guide, mounted with something like a Marker Baron be OK for this? I have no idea about boots. Could I use my Alpine boots? Or would they become extremely uncomfortable being pretty stiff? (Falcon 10).
post #4 of 29
You should look at the Karhu team 100s. They are the same as the line prophet 100s. Line makes them for Karhu.
http://karhuskico.com/products/product.asp?ID=2

I like them better than my PEs, and that is saying something. If you mount them with a barron or duke they would make a great resort setup too. I mounted mine with rossi axial 140s.
post #5 of 29
Thread Starter 
One of the reasons I was interested in the Karhu Guide is that they have scales. So, I could traverse / climb at least the low angle stuff without skins.....?

Good to know though Hucker, thanks. I will keep an eye out for deals. I also 'need' something like the Team 100 in my quiver for trips to LCC, UCC, and JH.
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
One of the reasons I was interested in the Karhu Guide is that they have scales. So, I could traverse / climb at least the low angle stuff without skins.....?
From this thread:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=75387

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4cznskier
Usually get 2' - 3' of snow here and live close to the nordy trails but I'm thinking I want to get a cheap set up to just go trekkin' around the 'hood off the trails - mostly flat with some short moderate slopes, and the whole spectrum of snow conditions. My idea is to go with some basic 3 pin binders and leather boots even though I'm not a telemarker and just kinda fake whatever turns I can - maybe even try droppin my knee sometimes. As far as skis, this is def. not something I would bother with skins for and I don't want to mess with kick and glide wax (got plenty o' boards to wax as it is), so the conclusion I have come to is something with a no wax base, a metal edge, a bit of width, and a bit of shape. Does this make sense?

Perfectly.

Quote:
Will a no wax base climb much of a slope at all without herringbone'n or traversing?
Yes, up to blue-square turf if the forebody isn't too stiff and if either the snow is sticky enough to offer grip to pressed-in (negative) kick scales, or if the snow is loose enough to allow molded-on (positive) fish scales to bite.

Quote:
This seems to really narrow the choices down - the only one I've really zeroed in on are Karhu 10th Mountain.

Atomic Rainier/Chugach (negative pattern up to '09)
Fischer S-bound (outbound/snowbound/outtabounds/boundless)
Alpina Cross Terrain ('07-'08 version has a very interesting sidecut)
Rossi BC 90
Karhu XCD series (Pinnacle, 10th Mt, Guide)
Salomon XADV (-enture, haven't skied this one)

I'm still using my alpine boots and know others who are as well. Just pop the top buckles loose - but not so loose your foot moves inside the boot.

HTH
post #7 of 29
JZ, a pair of Silvretta 400 or 500s on Kharhu Guides would allow you the ability to make this transition with your alpine or other boots. I got the 500s several years ago so I didn't have to buy boots aside from my tele boots. They worked great and can be used with a variety of boots, including AT & alpine boots. Once you get to the point of not wishing to hike in alpine boots, then you can deal with that issue.

Your backyard is not unlike mine where there are limitless options. You can also add skins to the mix when you can't climb where you'd like to with the patterned based skis.
post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
Would a Karhu Guide, mounted with something like a Marker Baron be OK for this? I have no idea about boots. Could I use my Alpine boots? Or would they become extremely uncomfortable being pretty stiff? (Falcon 10).
IMO too much binding (heavy), too much boot (stiff, heavy, forward lean, doesn't have walk mode) for that ski.

Tele bindings, skied heel-down = perfect for that terrain imo.
post #9 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
IMO too much binding (heavy), too much boot (stiff, heavy, forward lean, doesn't have walk mode) for that ski.

Tele bindings, skied heel-down = perfect for that terrain imo.
Agreed, but.....I've been out a few times on my Chugaches (around 10mm narrower than the Guides) and thought I could have had a bit more fun in stiffer snows with a locked heel. However, it does feel like you could actually break the skis if you did over power them in the wrong combination of conditions. As a 'bridge', the aforementioned set up could work for awhile and swap bindings/boots later as experience and confidence grows.

Here's the recommendations and description from Bergs Ski Shop: (the dimensions sound close to my Legend 8000s)

Quote:
Description
Karhu is blending the XCD design with the success of their wider telemark platforms, the XCD Guide received rave reviews from media, dealers and consumers alike(our staff love this ski like no other!!!). The guide stays true to the XCD tradition with full metal edges and the Omnitrak™ NoWax™ base - the best waxless grip available. For climbing and descending, the guide's 78mm waist and fat tip excel in soft snow. It's progressive sidecut and Carbon Powerbands initiate turns quickly, hold a carve and release smoothlyfrom the turn for truly go-anywhere skiing. We recommend using a light plastic Telemark boot like the Garmont Excursion or the Scarpa T-3(if you can find them) even though I have used my Garmont Energ-g's with these skis. If turns are important to you or traveling in deep snow then this is the ski you have dreamed about!!!
Features:

* Greenlight™ Core
* weight: 2.5 kg/5.5 lbs. (size 176)
* Carbon Powerband
* Progressive XCD Sidecut
* Omnitrak™ NoWax™ Base
* Single Camber
* 4D Fiberglass Wrap
* Single Seam Cap Construction
* Full-Length Metal Edge
* Dimensions: 109-78-95
* Lengths: 165cm, 175cm, 185cm
* Boot / Binding Recommendation:
* Light Plastic Boot
* 7tm Tour or XCD 3-Pin Binding and pretty much any telemark binding made right now!!!
post #10 of 29
BTW, bootpack = Volants and Navas for the win.
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
OK, Thanks, my brain is going on full spin cycle.

A couple questions.

Skiing a tele-binding heal down. Is there a tele-binding that can lock the heal down? Or do you mean balance centered over the ski with a 'free' heal?

I tried the 'free' heal on the NNN-BC bindings and a Karhu wide ski, for kicks and giggles. I was standing centered over the ski, in about 6 inches of mush, at Whitegrass. I hit a submerged rock, my alpine instincts took over. Of course, I leaned forward, and of course, there was no tongue pressure there. So, I caught myself by thrusting the tails of my skis out. Which, propeled me arms swinging, into the backseat. I rocked back and forth several times before coming to rest on my a$$. My knee didn't like that.

Hence my conclusion that, I need a fixed / fixable heal.

I'm confused by a lot of these bindings. Unless the description says that the heal can lock down, I simply don't know if it can.

Sorry, for my inexperience.

Also, That snow looks pretty wimpy. But... it had frozen crust beneath about 4-6 inches of new snow. I really had to force some turns, being so low angle. Quoting one of my friends I'm "As strong as a Tiger." Am I at danger for breaking a Silveretta 400-500? or the Karhu Guide?
post #12 of 29
For anyone who wishes to find their true sweet spot, try alpine skiing on tele binding in bumps, variable snow or ice, etc. You'll find your margin of error is very small and it can be very good for dialing in balance. Maybe that's why my skiing is best described as linked recoverys.

The Holy Grail for me would be a tele binding that released and you could lock the heel if you chose to. It doesn't exist, AFAIK. An active tele binding will tend to keep your heel 'less free' and closer to the ski, and snap back the foot and ski. Adding a free pivot on an active binding would be one approach but beefier than the intended purposes of a rugged touring rig. I'm not sure how strong the XCDs are, but I know I could break my Chugaches in situations a true AT/tele ski would excel. This is one of the reasons I just use light cable tele bindings and then adjust my skiing for the conditions.

Rugged touring is a middle ground between XC touring and beefier BC touring for turns. The latter would require skins and the patterned based skis may not be your best option. That's why I have a range of options depending on conditions, time location, etc. I also look at rugged touring as more about the tour and 'hopefully' you can sneak in some turns when you find them in moderate terrain.

I've taken my Silvretta 500s on some pretty challenging stuff, including front side bumps at Telluride and deep snows and haven't busted them yet, though I have ejected in some rare cases where other bindings wouldn't and may be more responsive.

You'll probably just need to get some sort of a set up and go from there over time. You can always remount bindings and change gear.
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
Or do you mean balance centered over the ski with a 'free' heal?
Yes. With a plastic-cuff duckbill boot and a cable around the heel (and with a binding that has toe ramp) this feels completely different and closer to your alpine experience, than what you described below:

Quote:
I tried the 'free' heal on the NNN-BC bindings and a Karhu wide ski, for kicks and giggles. I was standing centered over the ski, in about 6 inches of mush, at Whitegrass. I hit a submerged rock, my alpine instincts took over. Of course, I leaned forward, and of course, there was no tongue pressure there.
The "over the handlebars" sensation remains with the big boots and burlier bindings but is significantly diminished.


Quote:
Quoting one of my friends I'm "As strong as a Tiger."
My friends would probably call you 'moose'.

Quote:
Am I at danger for breaking a Silveretta 400-500? or the Karhu Guide?
The Silvretta is really designed for short little runt approach skis and climbing boots. It could work with the Falcon 10s, but, if I interpret your level of skiing correctly, imo you'd be

a) constantly looking for the source of the annoying wiggle when skiing b) at some risk of binding failure, not high but not zero
c) exhausting your body by slogging the extra weight uphill long before you exhaust what your brain wants to ski.

It was part c) that I had mostly in mind when I posted my earlier.
post #14 of 29
Nice!
post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

My friends would probably call you 'moose'.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_p...illed_by_moose

post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
For part of the answer, here's Moose Mayhem:

post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
You all really ARE trying to kill me....

<hey lets get Johnny to do tele in the trees>

NAVAS?



Well, Comprex if you are some kind of engineer....I hope you are better than the one that designed this gettup!

I'm thinking, and Alpinord along with me, that someone needs to make a binding that can do both Randonee' AND Tele.
post #18 of 29
You guys are barking up the wrong tree with the tele and AT setup ideas. Buy Mrs Zoo a snowmobile for Christmas and keep skiing on real skis with full bottom to top delivery service
post #19 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
You guys are barking up the wrong tree with the tele and AT setup ideas. Buy Mrs Zoo a snowmobile for Christmas and keep skiing on real skis with full bottom to top delivery service
Oh heck no...

She kept complaining that her hands were getting cold taking pics.

Johnny: Babe?

Snowmobile: Whrrrr...Whrrr...Whrrr...Whrrrrrrr...W
<gone>
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
Oh heck no...

She kept complaining that her hands were getting cold taking pics.

Johnny: Babe?

Snowmobile: Whrrrr...Whrrr...Whrrr...Whrrrrrrr...W
<gone>
Oh, ummm better have free heel capability just in case
post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
OK moving right along....

New question. What boots would work well/above average/good for boot packing, randonee', alpine, and possibly tel?
post #22 of 29
I love my Scarpa T2xs for my tele & rugged touring rigs. They're light, thermo fit & comfortable for touring and I can turn fine. A T3 or 4 or comparable are more touring options, as are leathers and duckbills. NNN boots and bindings are more difficult to turn especially in variable conditions. The only time I wished my T2xs were beefier/stiffer while touring was when I was on my Havocs and Silvrettas in 'thick' post April storm, powder on this run (Tornados are nicer for this):



My buddie alpine turned down this on T1s with tele bindings...he pisses me off :


post #23 of 29
Thread Starter 
Yes, your backyard IS surprisingly similar to mine.

Right now its raining here.

All the snow is gone out of my backyard this AM.

I'm looking at the Scarpa T1 and T2. I really like the look of the T1 (4 buckles) . But, its no wonder that it outperforms the T2 (3 buckles) in the downhill.

I'm guessing/remembering that the 'duckbill' won't work with a Randonee binding?
post #24 of 29
That is correct.


The Terminator X should work just fine tho.
post #25 of 29
The above was the mid-section of the backyard, 40 miles north. Literally out the back door, is more similar, FWIW.

I should have noted previously that I'd have been less than confident about the strength of the Chugaches in that snow and terrain, but could have been pleasantly surprised how well they held up. I was when I skied hardpack at a ski area.

The Silvrettas will work with the T1s or other duck-billed boot. Seems like you might be over powering a lighter set up like the Guides with the T1s. You might actually be better off with a beefier ski and binding set up and us skins instead of the patterned ski base......or an AT set up versus tele?

Reassessment of needs and goals? Again, you may need more than one rig to cover the types of touring and skiing you have at hand and as conditions change (bummer about the rain). The T1 and beefier set up would have been overkill for the 'backyard' tour, 10 miles or so south shown in the 'First Turn' thread. A lighter NNN BC set up would have been fine except for the 'turn'.

post #26 of 29
Thread Starter 
I would gladly purchase an up to date book that goes over XC, AT, Tele, Randonee' - designs / purpose of: equipment, skis, bindings, boots, skins, etc.

It would be nice if maybe one of the moderators / instructors would make a sticky describing basics of this gear.

Or if someone knows of a good reference.

<goes into spasmodic episode, vaguely resembling 'The Snoopy Dance'.>

JZ: Ungh...NTN....TLT....NNN...Tele...Cable.......gape r <froathing>
post #27 of 29
This Classic vs Skate thread may fill in some blanks.

Maybe just starting out with a cheap Classic or BC NNN set up with patterned/fish scale bases is a good place to start. A few outings and many things will answer themselves, plus you get a snow fix and workout. This is the set up that I get out the most frequently on due to simplicity and versatility.

Knowing your biking interests, it seems like a natural for you and the dogs. It'll be good rig/option to have around for years with little investment and to build a 'quiver' around.
post #28 of 29
Thread Starter 
Alpinord - I think you are right. I'm trying too squeeze 2 or maybe 3 types of skiing into one.

My skiing has been toward the alpine side. I have done some side backcountry, and backyard type stuff. My style has been to bootpack, traverse, and go down, then repeat, type stuff.

With the increasing popularity of the 'Big Mountain BC' type skiing, bindings such as the Duke and Baron have spiked my curiousity. Then I thought well 2 is better than one right?

Then, combine that with my XC MTB experience, and you create some wierd whirling dervish conglomerate.

I'm planning on doing Whitegrass again this weekend. (If it doesn't rain too much). I will probably meet up with Miami John (Ex-Gary Fisher Mid Atlantic Racer, Ex-NCAA Cross Country Runner), His wife (Marathon Runner), Joey and Mandy (Pro XC MTB racers, Ex-Norba racers)....

Then, Mrs. Zoo says that she likes skiing XC! Without any cajoling from me!

I've been trying to think of a way to sway everyone over toward more alpinish skiing. Because, thats what I'm good at. Being 8-10 years their senior, having a kid and a Zoo... well it just seemed easier.

So, I guess I'll pick the Whitgrass brains some more.
post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnys Zoo View Post
Then, Mrs. Zoo says that she likes skiing XC! Without any cajoling from me!

I've been trying to think of a way to sway everyone over toward more alpinish skiing. Because, thats what I'm good at. Being 8-10 years their senior, having a kid and a Zoo... well it just seemed easier.
There's your incentive. The only full family (including dog), stress free winter outing we can pull off is mellow XC tours or skate skiing. You should have seen the depressed look our dog gave me yesterday when I took off without him to ski versus the full on dance and howling when we're preparing for a tour.
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