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# The mystery transition

We've talked endlessly here about different transitions that exploit existing turn forces to facilitate a Center of Mass (CM) move into the new turn. Whether of an Inside Leg Extension (ILE)variety, or an Outside Leg Relaxation (OLR) type, they create a separation of the point of pressure from the point of balance, which disrupts the lateral balance state and sends the CM over the skis and into the new turn.

So here's the question; how do we do it in one foot turns,,, or in a White Pass Lean transition where weight is 100 percent on the outside foot and never leaves there throughout the transition? In these we can't manipulate pressure distribution between our two feet to disrupt balance and send the CM across the skis. So how do we do it?

Think it out, and talk it over.

But otherwise turning on the outside ski only may be the cleanest turn of all, allows you to carve much easier and gives you a good understanding how to balance on your inside edge of your outside ski.
But it is like standing on one foot and go in a tuck, it will be harder than to use both legs. That means you are going to be weaker and therefore a lot slower. So you do have to use your inner ski in a supportive role.
One issue is made very clear with that, angulation wins over Inclination.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick We've talked endlessly here about different transitions that exploit existing turn forces to facilitate a Center of Mass (CM) move into the new turn. Whether of an Inside Leg Extension (ILE)variety, or an Outside Leg Relaxation (OLR) type, they create a separation of the point of pressure from the point of balance, which disrupts the lateral balance state and sends the CM over the skis and into the new turn. So here's the question; how do we do it in one foot turns,,, or in a White Pass Lean transition where weight is 100 percent on the outside foot and never leaves there throughout the transition? In these we can't manipulate pressure distribution between our two feet to disrupt balance and send the CM across the skis. So how do we do it? Think it out, and talk it over.
Its an interesting question Rick. I need to snow to play on before I can make anything more than a completely speculative guess. Off the top of my head all I can think of is angulating a bit more right at the end of the turn in order to upset the balance and start the process.
Oh, give me a break! It's just simple vector addition.

You just stop resisting the centrifugal force (or if you prefer you stop changing the direction of your momentum) by resisting less with that outside ski.

Gravity pushes your cm down, centripetal forces pushes your cm out of the curve. Go fast enough and you'll be over that ski before you fall a cm.

Or you just resist a little less, enough to resist gravity but not centripetal force and you go up and over that outside ski.
I agree with Ghost. It's the same way a snowboarder does, release the engaged edge and let centrifugal force pull you towards the new turn. You can roll the ankle and let it happen. This is what a good three tracker does all the time.
You have to relese the CoM from previous turn. Whatever you do to resist gravity and centrifugal force to stay in your previous turn, undo it. Gravity is your friend. Bring your inside foot as close as you can. Dare to lean into the new turn standing on your new inside ski. Hey, this must be the same way a total beginner feels like when he goes for his first wedgeturn !
Please describe the exact movements you will perform with your body in order to "release" and to "stop resisting", etc..
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rick So here's the question; how do we do it in one foot turns,,, or in a White Pass Lean transition where weight is 100 percent on the outside foot and never leaves there throughout the transition? In these we can't manipulate pressure distribution between our two feet to disrupt balance and send the CM across the skis. So how do we do it? Think it out, and talk it over.
Is it any different than making turns on a bike or motorcycle vs. in a car. On a bike we have the advantage of being able to inclinate in order to adjust the vectors to maintain balance and keep us from being thrown to the outside of the turn. In a car we need the outside wheels to absorb the forces.
We are always resisting gravity but manipulating it via up or down unweighting. So we are always supporting our COM, whether at transition on a flat ski or in the turning arc where centripital force requires us to move our base of support outside our COM line of travel. We could also say that we are moving our COM to the inside of the turn but in affect it is just moving our base of support to the outside, same same. So whether we are on one ski or two we still deal with the same forces, it's just how we choose to make it most comfortable for ourselves. Most skiers are not comfortable in supporting the forces of the turn on the little toe edge of the inside ski and therefore move to the outside leg. But make the same turn on one leg and the only difference is which leg and edge is your base of support.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Please describe the exact movements you will perform with your body in order to "release" and to "stop resisting", etc..
If I angulate I de-angulate.... also, I feel a greater need to ski in and out of balance when skiing on one ski.
Like you have indicated in the last sentences. On a bike you have one track, on skis you have two. That why in that case you can only move towards the outside track and use the inner one as a support.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gcarlson Is it any different than making turns on a bike or motorcycle vs. in a car. On a bike we have the advantage of being able to inclinate in order to adjust the vectors to maintain balance and keep us from being thrown to the outside of the turn. In a car we need the outside wheels to absorb the forces. We are always resisting gravity but manipulating it via up or down unweighting. So we are always supporting our COM, whether at transition on a flat ski or in the turning arc where centripital force requires us to move our base of support outside our COM line of travel. We could also say that we are moving our COM to the inside of the turn but in affect it is just moving our base of support to the outside, same same. So whether we are on one ski or two we still deal with the same forces, it's just how we choose to make it most comfortable for ourselves. Most skiers are not comfortable in supporting the forces of the turn on the little toe edge of the inside ski and therefore move to the outside leg. But make the same turn on one leg and the only difference is which leg and edge is your base of support.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by simplyfast Like you have indicated in the last sentences. On a bike you have one track, on skis you have two. That why in that case you can only move towards the outside track and use the inner one as a support.
You choose to move to the outside ski, you don't need to as evidenced by being able to ski on one ski. It is stronger to let your outside ski take most of the force of the turn but it isn't necessary. If it was necessary you wouldn't be able to make turns on one ski. This is at the heart of the original question.
Hey Rick,

Cool question;
Quote:
 So here's the question; how do we do it in one foot turns,
Is I am sure you know, the answer lies in the earlier portion of your post.

RW
Sorry that does not make sense to me now. Could you describe that in another way?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by gcarlson You choose to move to the outside ski, you don't need to as evidenced by being able to ski on one ski. It is stronger to let your outside ski take most of the force of the turn but it isn't necessary. If it was necessary you wouldn't be able to make turns on one ski. This is at the heart of the original question.
Just watch Bode Miller on DH or SG. You can ski with only one ski. you can make left and right turns on your left ski or on your right ski.
You do not need to use one ski for support. You can do a white-pass turn using the inside ski as the main weight-bearing ski. You can have all your weight on the outside ski, split 50-50 or all on the inside. It is up to you. All that matters is that momentum forces and torques add up to move and rotate you so that your legs tip the skis to the desired angle.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by T-Square I agree with Ghost. It's the same way a snowboarder does, release the engaged edge and let centrifugal force pull you towards the new turn. You can roll the ankle and let it happen. This is what a good three tracker does all the time.
I agree with this. Simply letting your COM get to the inside of the turn is enough to change edges. This may be accompanied by some retractions of the new inside leg in a white pass turn, but I have done white pass with no retraction as well and it still works as long you balance is dialed.

Rick this move ties into alot of what your thoughts on balance are. Being in balance is always moving ahead of where you need to be. Its one of the greatest moments in skiing when your nearly weightless before your edges are engaged with you bases showing uphill.

A good skier strives to move the COM like this all the time. A great skier does it all the time. NO matter how many feet are on the ground or where they are. This movement of the COM is always there.
Tipping of the ski, it's that simple
Quote:
 Originally Posted by simplyfast Sorry that does not make sense to me now. Could you describe that in another way?
You stated that: "On a bike you have one track, on skis you have two. That why in that case you can only move towards the outside track and use the inner one as a support."

The original question in this thread was "how do we do it in one foot turns?" If we keep the discussion to one foot turns then let's not consider moving "towards the outside track and use the inner one as a support."

My point was that it is not necessary to move towards the outside track because we can make turns on one ski where there is no outside track.

Hope this helps.
Another way would be to increase the edge angle and tighten the existing turn. This would increase the centrifugal force. If you don't increase your centripetal force to resist this imbalance (by increased angulation or banking) the imbalance in the forces will move your COM towards the new turn. As you cross over the ski, the old edge will release and the new edge will engage on the other side.

(i.e. you ski the ski under you and fall over into the new turn.)
Quote:
 Originally Posted by T-Square Another way would be to increase the edge angle and tighten the existing turn. This would increase the centrifugal force. If you don't increase your centripetal force to resist this imbalance (by increased angulation or banking) the imbalance in the forces will move your COM towards the new turn. As you cross over the ski, the old edge will release and the new edge will engage on the other side. (i.e. you ski the ski under you and fall over into the new turn.)
Well said. You even got the centre fleeing and centre seeking parts right.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA A good skier strives to move the COM like this all the time. A great skier does it all the time. NO matter how many feet are on the ground or where they are. This movement of the COM is always there.
As a side but related topic in the movement of the COM: do we move the COM or do we move our base of support or are they the same thing, only a difference of perspective.
As an example, is it easier to maintain balance standing on one foot/ski while not moving or by standing on one foot/ski while gliding. I find it's easier while gliding because I can adjust the position of my base of support to keep my COM centered and balanced. If my base of support is stationary I have no means of centering except by movements of my arms or angulating to counter any loss of balance.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by borntoski683 Please describe the exact movements you will perform with your body in order to "release" and to "stop resisting", etc..
As implied, simply soften the support leg that is keeping your CoM uphill of and being deflected around the corner by the downhill ski. Timing the rate of relaxation to guide the direction of momentum flow of the CoM into the next turn.

Note that as long as the downhill support leg is in what I call 'extension tension' it will want to remain locked onto it's inside big toe edge (bi-pedal body DNA hard wiring) and be resistive to easy edge release by it's foot activity alone. Relaxing the leg to release the CoM also allows rolling the foot to release the edge as CoM flow across.

Same concept works in 'white' pass' mode as well.

Also consider that while the path of the base of support (feet) and the path of the CoM have an inter-dependent and inter-active relationship they each also have an integrity of their own.

ARC
Quote:
 Originally Posted by T-Square Another way would be to increase the edge angle and tighten the existing turn. This would increase the centrifugal force. If you don't increase your centripetal force to resist this imbalance (by increased angulation or banking) the imbalance in the forces will move your COM towards the new turn. As you cross over the ski, the old edge will release and the new edge will engage on the other side. (i.e. you ski the ski under you and fall over into the new turn.)
This is even easier to employ in short turns as the legs are relaxed to allow more foot/lower leg tipping to get the extra edge angle faster, and then roll them over quicker into the new turn.
ARC
There are at least six distinct internal mechanisms and quite a few external mechanisms to release a turn.

Internally,

a) Extending while in perfect lateral balance will do it.

b) Flexing while in perfect lateral balance will do it.

c) Counter-steering will do it (any joint reorientation to increase ski angle).

d) A Push-off with a ski pole will do it.

e) Suddenly raising the Outside-Arm and pole will do it. (Effectively an upper-appendage Mass movement to pull us out of balance).

f) Pulling the lone ski back will often do it (from a perfectly balanced position [laterally] doing this will likely bend the fore-body of the ski more causing it to turn more sharply and induce a counter-steering mode)

Externally,

x1) The Automatically-increasing edge-angle due to the ski curving from Apex toward transition (across the slope) will decrease radius through the pure geometry of a ski turn on a sloped surface.

x2) Terrain undulations that create the same increasing-edge-angle effect as in X1.

x3) A gust of Wind...

x4) Impact by a wayward Skier or Snowboarder...

x5) Tail washout which causes the ski to re-orient into a tighter radius (creating an automatic counter-steering mode)

x6) ...?

Essentially, any combination of the elements above will do it.

If we really think about this, it's much harder to keep ourselves in the exact same turn radius than it is to lose that turn. Most of the time we're actively trying to 'hold' a turn rather than trying to abandon it. Most of the forces acting on a turning skier are working against the continuation of that turn.

To prove this to yourself, just take any old skier at the apex of a turn and knock them out with a fast-acting tranquilizer gun. I guarantee, they'll quickly go straight...

.ma
The original question has been well answered by T-square, Ghost, Lars & tdk. If you will indulge me...
The same ski/snow interaction exists in both 2 and 1 footed turns (with the obvious exception of the second ski): you tip 'em, through some angulation/inclination cocktail, and they turn. The cocktail ingredients differ in the two as you have enhanced relationship of cm to the effective edge through flexion/extension of two legs. You can now actively "push," or less actively "allow," your cm to more rapidly be more accurately centered over the edge (primarily) affecting the new turn.
If the desire is a one-skied (single edge) turn, and you totally kick ass at cm management, I suspect skiing with only one ski on the ground can closely simulate a "passive" two-skis-on-the-ground turn.
... there is a reason I take the 2nd ski with me. :-)

First of all "relaxing" the only leg you are standing on will not work really. The reason that works on two legs is because when you relax that outside leg your other leg takes over the support and that changes the state of balance. If you're on one leg, you would only be able to relax it for a millisecond unless you want to crumble to the ground...you basically still have to support your G forces with that one leg. However, if you did a DRAMATIC relaxation of that leg, it might create a down-unweight kind of move that might get the com moving across, but on one leg? It hurts me to think of it. Have your knee surgeon on hand before you try that one.

I liked the explanation someone gave for increasing edge angle, which is essentially a pre-turn. How do you increase your edge angle while standing on one leg? Its easier said then done I think. I would like to know how you plan to execute that.

"Just tipping", again way way easier said then done when you're standing on one leg, but certainly some tipping could play into things. However, if you are riding on the inside edge of your outside ski near the end of the turn with a bunch of G's on it, I think trying to "tip" that ski is going to be awkward.

Its not the same thing as when you're riding on two skis, and you transfer your weight to the inside ski and tip the outside ski simultaneously.
If you are in a 2 G turn, your cm will accelerate twice as much to the side upon a complete release as it will to the ground. Once you have moved you cm a few centimeters you have enough torque to complete the edge change.
I practice these one legged turns all the all the time. makes a boring cat track inot something more usefull then to get from point A to point B.

A pole plant definetly helps the shift. I am not sure your CM really goes to the other side as in a 2 footed turn. I think this is why it is somewnat awkward feeling when you roll to the outside edge. And in that sentence maybe lies my answer. i think i roll my foot to the little toe side and then balance on the outside edge from a point far less inside the turn then is possible on your inside edge.

One reason it is more difficult and not really akin to a motorcycle is that a motorcycle tire is convex and naturally accomodates "rolling" from side to side. A ski is flat on the bottom which makes it more difficult to smoothly roll from edge to edge without some period of neuatrality which just does not need to happen on a bike.
If you are skiing at ski-instructor speed, you will need to vary angulation to shorten the turn radius of the skis for a cross under or the other way for a cross over.
What makes a motorcycle tip over from one turn to the next is counter-steering, ie, pushing on the handlebars in the direction you want to turn. That upsets the balance and starts the bike tipping in the new direction. The bike does not tip from other body language. By pushing on the outside handlebar while finishing a turn, You are tightening the turn radius of the bike while not increasing your lean, which creates a high-side balance shift and then the entire bike, no matter how heavy will start to move in the new direction.

We don't have handlebars on our ski setup. However anything you can do on skis that will create a high-side offset of balance is what is going to get you moving in that new direction. Merely relaxing your single leg is not really moving you high-side is it? It will move you closer to your skis, not laterally. Tipping your edges towards the new turn will not change your balance either it will only compromise your edging.

Actually, Tipping them IN to tighten the turn a wee bit without inclinating more, would create a high-side balance shift and cause you start moving in the direction of the new turn. Combine that with pro-active counter-balance movements(ie, angulation), and you'll be high side and moving across.
BTS,
Relaxing your leg does indeed allow your cm to travel straight instead of around the turn and if you were in balance before the relaxation you are correct in that the direction your cm moves is towards where your ski(s) was (were). However what you forgot is that the angle of the skis is still the same and the ski continues in a curve. CM not going around curve, ski going around curve = cross-under transition.

Like what would happen if your SO on the back of the bike didn't lean with you going around that corner.
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