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Condescending nonsense = No sale - Page 5  

post #121 of 132
There is no "best" system, it boils down to what is best for each skier, saying this just causes further confusion. Nice try on promoting your pals system though.
post #122 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
Maybe this is how the pros do it now. As for me it’s still no sale.
Certainly earth shattering news!!

...and the wind rustled the quaking aspens while snow fell....

It's one thing to discuss alignment.
What's the point of trashing people offering free advice though?!!
Oh...right...you're saving us from psychic healers!!!
I would recommend you discuss this also at pmts.org and see what people on that board think of it. Of course, be aware that were you to take one of those camps there you'd be paying for alignment befor you ski.

One way or another, we all pay for alignment.
post #123 of 132
Thread Starter 

Huh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Certainly earth shattering news!!

...and the wind rustled the quaking aspens while snow fell....

It's one thing to discuss alignment.
What's the point of trashing people offering free advice though?!!
Oh...right...you're saving us from psychic healers!!!
I would recommend you discuss this also at pmts.org and see what people on that board think of it. Of course, be aware that were you to take one of those camps there you'd be paying for alignment befor you ski.

One way or another, we all pay for alignment.
Style is one thing. Do you have a point?
post #124 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
Do you have a point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
It's one thing to discuss alignment.
What's the point of trashing people offering free advice though?!!
That's The point. It seems that you just want to vent -- we've got 5 pages of it.
post #125 of 132
Joseph, have you ever read the section on alignment in the Athletic Skier?
post #126 of 132
Thread Starter 

No sale

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
Joseph,

i really don't know what you want from this thread...if you are trying to convince people not to buy alignment services then i am affraid you have failed badly, all this serves to do is get people thinkng about the whole thing

i don't get a lot of business from epic due ot my location however i have had two calls this week from people who have read this and are coming in for assessment in the next 10 days.....do they need alignment...i really don't know untill i assess them, but they beleieve that it may help them.

from what you have said over the past 4 pages i would be so bold as to suggest that you have never had your alignment so much as assessed, does that make you special? no it makes you lucky at best. as i have said before human beings are lazy, they want instant gratification form theri kit, they do not want to /are unable to practice for there one weeks holiday on skis, they have biomechanical differenced which do not match the biomechanics of skiing.... what alignment does for them is allow them to get the best from the sport the do ....remember though that to most of these people skiing is a hobby rather then a competative sport, all they want is to be happy doing the best turns they can , if alignment helps them do that then that is great.

do yourself a favour, go and see one of the guys listed on here who offer alignment services, spend a few $ and go through the process....at least then you can speak with some level of authority on the subject. I'm sure i picked up somewhere that you are a ski instructor, if so i stongly beleive that you owe it to yourself and more importantly to your clients to fully understand what alignment services can do, can't do and how they may or may not benefit certain people
Akin to an earlier post, one could substitute “Kool-Aid” for “alignment services” here with no meaning lost.

In this thread, I’ve been questioning the value of the “Kool-Aid” as forthrightly and fairly as I can, the principal questions being how folks do so well without it and in any event why anyone should patronize condescending Kool-Aid salesmen. The nonsense in response—and if you study this sort of thing, in truth it’s the fundamental “footwork” of the business—it’s actually pretty instructive.

Let’s summarize:

1. Knowledge, skill, kindness and humor abound in the Kool-Aid industry, which is peopled by really swell experts volunteering their time (and which paradoxically justifies verbal abuse);
2. Kool-Aid helps some people, ergo everyone needs to drink lots of it;
3. All the experts drink/endorse the Kool-Aid, except for those who don’t (and they are simply wrong);
4. Ingredients matter not, i.e. like beverage in the hands of an expert bartender, Kool-Aid can be mixed in literally any fashion;
5. Possibly you might not need or even deserve Kool-Aid, but we can’t say until after you drink it (my personal favorite!); and finally, the ever popular
6. Why the hell do you question the Kool-Aid?

Note that some observers might group the last two as simply ad hominem, but I distinguish them because asking an irrelevant question is a time-honored evasion and a distinct rhetorical device (if not a separate logical fallacy). Either way, if you dance there’s a nice list of some basic steps. People can sell anything this way, and often do. (Think: vertical market. I “quiver” at the thought.)

Colin, it’s not relevant but if my motives still interest you, please PM or start a new thread. (I envision a third-party Chaos-type adolation post maybe? OK, I’m not holding my breath.) FYI for the rest, I’ve seen these issues come around every decade or so for the last few: let’s face it, if you love to ski you’ve gotta make a buck, right? Always fun and interesting to see how very little things change in this crazy game.

Caveat emptor folks! Practice those turns, and best wishes to all.
post #127 of 132
These were your original questions:

1. If alignment is generally so poor, how have so many skiers managed so well for so long? (Gosh, surprising we even walk, let alone play sports.)

2. Why on earth would I send a skier to a boot guy who insults the customer in the effort to sell services not needed?

You got answers to both, in great detail, and even an apology from the insulting boot guys.

I was hoping to see this thread make it to a 6th page, but I will nevertheless be happy to see it end.

Cheers (raising a glass of Kool-Aid -- Oh Yeah).
post #128 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
I would recommend you discuss this also at pmts.org and see what people on that board think of it. Of course, be aware that were you to take one of those camps there you'd be paying for alignment befor you ski.
I respectfully disagree.

And your claim appears to be irrelevant, too. For even if it was true, how would what happens in the PMTS justify any of the (sometimes contradictory) claims made here about alignment?
post #129 of 132
Joseph,

This stuff doesn't "come around every decade or so". Alignment has been written about since Joubert's books in the 60s, Witherell's 1973 classic, and more recently Lemaster's, Witherell & Evrard, and Harald Harb's stuff. Ron's forthcoming book is going to include a chapter (or two) on multiplane alignment.

You argue that this stuff is irrelevant for beginners and there I'm tempted to agree with you. On soft equipment, the most important thing for a novice is acquiring sport-specific gross motor skills. However, as speed, skills, and equipment stiffness/performance increases, alignment (and tactics, and psychology) become important factors. In particular, accurate alignment helps to minimize compensating movements that often masquerade as 'poor technique'.

You may do well to recognize six performance factors (for any sport) that are well written about in the sport/motor learning literature: Technique, Tactics, Physical factors, Psychological skills, Equipment, and Environment.

To focus on technique and exclude the other factors limits skill development and performance.

To suggest that alignment work (the intersection of physical/biomechanical factors and equipment) is kool aid simply shows a lack of experience and knowledge. Hence my comment re. some people simply don't know what they don't know.

To expect a level of evidence commensurate with medical RCTs is silly. To suggest that the lack of said evidence is somehow a proof for kool aid is profoundly silly. Most of what we know about this world didn't come from double blind randomized studies .

Doing this work is a craft not a science; an art of experience based on a solid understanding of biomechanics, equipment, and ski technique mixed with a good ear and careful eye. If you think the practice of medicine is much different, you're wrong there too.

Goethe said something to the effect that what matters is thinking and doing. If you've never done this work or played with this stuff yourself, then IMO you simply don't know much - in the way that deep knowledge comes from experiential learning.

The funny thing is that if you've changed ski boot brands a couple times, you've already experienced (perhaps unwittingly) alignment changes as a result of differences in last, shape, offset, toe out, cuff axis, and cuff angles. Good skiers inherently recognize these things, at least by feel . The best ones can describe the differences and articulate how they are forced to adapt.

Continue "questioning" as you see fit, but until you move from talking to doing, IMO it's all bullsh*t.
post #130 of 132
Joseph,
For what it's worth I have seen with my own eyes and can guarantee that CEM has not recommended or sold anything to anyone that has not needed it.
I've seen him turn away sales for several hundred pounds because he didn't have exactly the right product for them.
I will continue to use him and recommend him.
If he says I need something, I believe it.
post #131 of 132
What I don't understand is this. Joseph it seems, is agaist alignment (or sees no value to it) and that is fine. But why would someone be so adimant about how worthless it is for so many skiers. I know first hand that it can help skiers. The person who owns the shop I manage is CURRENTY a L3 PSIA and has tried out for the Demo Team, I only say this to qualify us as people who not only sell boots/skis, but also as instructors who want to help people get better. Twice a year we do a camp at Winterpark, the feed back from the coachs is that our skiers are some of the best aligned skiers they see. I have seen marked improvements from our campers as well. In the end what works for some, does not work for all. Some people CHOOSE to get thier aligntment dialed in others don't, thier choice. I certainly do not push our alignment services on every boot customer, but if I see one that I feel could benifit I suggest it, it's up to them if they want to pursure it further.
post #132 of 132
I am closing this thread and taking it for consideration among the moderators. It is my opinion that Joseph has had ample opportunity to air his opinion. It is clear no one is going to change his opinion and his continued proselytizing of his position has become insulting to respected professional members who volunteer their time here. Calling their craft kool-aid. Members wishing to adopt Joseph's stance with regard to alignment are welcome to do so.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Condescending nonsense = No sale