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Condescending nonsense = No sale  

post #1 of 132
Thread Starter 
I've been lurking for some time now--no input from us amateurs allowed in these [Ask the Boot Guys] threads!--and I'm amazed and saddened by the poor attitudes and BS offered by the "boot guys" here.

Here are my questions:

1. If alignment is generally so poor, how have so many skiers managed so well for so long? (Gosh, surprising we even walk, let alone play sports.)

2. Why on earth would I send a skier to a boot guy who insults the customer in the effort to sell services not needed?

[Note: Originally posted in--and removed by a moderator from--the "Ask the Boot Guys" forum.]
post #2 of 132
Joseph, I moved your thread from ask the Boot Guys to where we normally discuss forum feedback. I acknowledge that some of the posts may seem condescending, but I tend to blame it on the repetitive posts that can be answered by the FAQ, and the relatively small number of experts who are replying in that forum. Frustration occasionally shows.

If you feel a particular post is abusive, or inappropriate, I would appreciate that you use the report post button and bring it to our attention. The Boot Guys have a private forum area where we can discuss the approach to threads and try to encourage more helpful replies, or a non-reply to a post. Post reports will be anonymously provided for their consideration.

There are a couple of background issues you should be sensitive to as well. The Boot Guys are professionals at a very high level of their profession, and are giving away information that they usually get paid for. Some of the EpicSki Boot Guys are trainers of bootfitters as well as practicing professionals that are developing the latest trends, tools and understandings of boot fitting and alignment. There may be concern about giving away too much of what they worked so hard to learn and accomplish in an open forum that can be used by not only EpicSki members, but competitors to DIY bootfitting. This sometimes leads to the "ask your bootfitter" as a reply. Another issue is that these guys also operate retail operations that are undermined by direct sales from manufacturer's like Intuition, or clearance goods through Ebay and other below wholesale channels. This threatens their livelihood and when members post question asking for free services to fit and adjust their internet acquired boots, liners and accessories, the response should be predictable.

Finally I'll say, I have met a number of the bootfitters in person and will unequivocally vouch for their abilities, knowledge, patience as well as good sense of humor. In my experience, these guys are a lot of fun to be around and time spent in their company is time well spent. Not only are their contributions on EpicSki greatly appreciated by most of the members, but we are actually willing to overlook some of the rough edges and misunderstandings that come with posting on a forum.
post #3 of 132
Thread Starter 
BS.

I ask again, if alignment is so poor, how do we even walk let alone ski? The question is directly germane to the "boot guy" area, and it's telling that you won't let the question stand.

FYI, I'm not going to be flagging any posts, it's a waste of time and you know it. (Your forum, your rules.) It's just sad. For my part, I'm got my own list of boot fitters to avoid: all of them post here. Some of them are big names in the business. What a freaking shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
There may be concern about giving away too much of what they worked so hard to learn and accomplish in an open forum that can be used by not only EpicSki members, but competitors to DIY bootfitting
No, 'cause we wouldn't want this place to actually provide free information, would we now!

Again, very telling.

Best wishes to you anyway.
post #4 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
BS.

I ask again, if alignment is so poor, how do we even walk let alone ski? The question is directly germane to the "boot guy" area, and it's telling that you won't let the question stand.

FYI, I'm not going to be flagging any posts, it's a waste of time and you know it. (Your forum, your rules.) It's just sad. For my part, I'm got my own list of boot fitters to avoid: all of them post here. Some of them are big names in the business. What a freaking shame.

No, 'cause we wouldn't want this place to actually provide free information, would we now!

Again, very telling.

Best wishes to you anyway.

If you would have asked the question without all the negative attitude your thread would have stayed in the boot guys and you would have gotten an answer. But since this question like every post you have made since you joined, was laden with sarcasm and negativity, your question, and point was lost. I moved it where we could civilly discuss your apparent issues. Since you want to call bullshit on me, I'm going to warn you once...this is an argument you cannot win. Yes, I'm provoked, and I'll have one of the other mods step in now, since I can't see straight.
post #5 of 132
Thank you Cirque.
post #6 of 132
There is an obvious follow up question here:

Other than providing a source of amusement, how can the other denizens of Epic make this a rewarding place for these professionals to post?

Assuming that we are somehow short of an ideal, what would that ideal be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
There are a couple of background issues you should be sensitive to as well. The Boot Guys are professionals at a very high level of their profession, and are giving away information that they usually get paid for. Some of the EpicSki Boot Guys are trainers of bootfitters as well as practicing professionals that are developing the latest trends, tools and understandings of boot fitting and alignment. There may be concern about giving away too much of what they worked so hard to learn and accomplish in an open forum that can be used by not only EpicSki members, but competitors to DIY bootfitting. This sometimes leads to the "ask your bootfitter" as a reply. Another issue is that these guys also operate retail operations that are undermined by direct sales from manufacturer's like Intuition, or clearance goods through Ebay and other below wholesale channels. This threatens their livelihood and when members post question asking for free services to fit and adjust their internet acquired boots, liners and accessories, the response should be predictable.
post #7 of 132
While the original tone of the OP has some bark and bite to it, I am hoping that the positive input and feedback from those in this community who've been served well by the professionals, whether boot fitters or instructor, will outweigh the negative.

I know that my skiing would not be what it is today without the tremendous professionals who take time out of their busy schedule to give freely of themselves.
post #8 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
I ask again, if alignment is so poor, how do we even walk let alone ski?
Isn't it a question of walking/skiing better, not just at all?
post #9 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
Finally I'll say, I have met a number of the bootfitters in person and will unequivocally vouch for their abilities, knowledge, patience as well as good sense of humor. In my experience, these guys are a lot of fun to be around and time spent in their company is time well spent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
While the original tone of the OP has some bark and bite to it, I am hoping that the positive input and feedback from those in this community who've been served well by the professionals, whether boot fitters or instructor, will outweigh the negative.

I know that my skiing would not be what it is today without the tremendous professionals who take time out of their busy schedule to give freely of themselves.
For what it's worth (meaning, I'm not much of an expert on bootfitting and related physiological considerations), over Thanksgiving weekend, I bought new boots and had a bootfitting done by Bud Heishman, and I was pretty impressed with Bud's thoroughness and knowledgeability (nice guy, too). I haven't skied with my new boots yet, but I'm expecting a quantum leap in my skiing performance that will take me to heights that only Chaos can recognize.
post #10 of 132
Thread Starter 
Let's be clear.

It's a gross misrepresentation to state, as Cirque does, that "every post you have made since you joined, was laden with sarcasm and negativity." (A quick search on my name shows the truth on this score.) Being a mod here shouldn't be a license to shame other members, as Cirque's misstatement clearly seeks.

In this particular instance, I am addressing indirectly a recent series of posts in which "boot guys" insulted an earnest question as "mismashed," and maligned an anonymous professional podiatrist as "untrained." I say "indirectly" because I, as an "amateur," not only can't respond to a "boot guy" thread, but can't even start one there.

None of this is right and the criticism is well-warranted. Nevertheless, your forum, your rules.

Sorry if that's negative, but it's the truth.

Best wishes, and caveat emptor.

P.S. Almost forgot: some skiers need a boot fitter (a good one is a godsend). Others need a podiatrist (ditto). Some don't need either one.
post #11 of 132
I have to say that I absolutely feel joseph's pain. I don't think his delivery was especially good but I understand exactly where he's coming from.

First let me say that I think the bootfitters here, including the ones who I think have an attitude problem, have done a great community service by spending their valuable time helping people with their questions. Keep in mind that there is also an element of self-promotion to that process which I think is a good thing.

Also I think it is very unfair to claim that all of the boot fitters here share the same poor attitude. That's painting with too broad a brush. I’ve personally benefitted from the advice of Mtn Lion and I greatly appreciate his effort. Cirquerider did an excellent job of explaining why some may have developed a poor attitude and joseph's response was not reasonable.

Having said that, I think one of the primary points of contention is Intuition's decision to allow some level of direct marketing. I think it's an absolutely great idea. What the bootfitters have to remember is that not everyone can afford or want to take advantage of their services.

I started skiing in 1962 in Colorado. After a hiatus where I only skied a few times a year I am seriously getting back into the sport along with my older brother. He was one of the first professional ski patrols back in the day and we are both excited about renewing our love of skiing. We are not however wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. If you took the attitude of some of the bootfitters here to the logical conclusion the only people who would be allowed to ski in thermofit boots would have to come to them. Both my brother and I can barely afford to put all of the gear together to get started using every method we can to find the cheapest gear, including the evil eBay. We certainly can't afford to go to an expensive boot fitter on top of all of the other costs. For people who can I think it's likely the correct solution and money well spent. There is no doubt in my mind that they are very capable. In my case I don't live within 250 miles of a qualified boot fitter so I need to be self sufficient.

What Intuition is offering is a consumable item for skiers that can be successfully distributed by different avenues. Black Diamond and other boutique ski manufactures sell direct and I don't see anyone having a panic attack over that fact. If and when I can afford a boot fitter I will be glad to support them if their prices are reasonable and they don't demonstrate soup-nazi arrogance.

I offer my sincere best wishes to all of the bootfitters here including the ones with which I may not agree. My personal friends aren't required to agree with me.
post #12 of 132
Thread Starter 

Let's get the facts, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by figurado View Post
I have to say that I absolutely feel joseph's pain.
Thanks.

Quote:
joseph's response was not reasonable.
On the contrary. Just after Cirque's response (moving my thread from the boot guys), Trekchick told me privately she was deleting the entire thread and not to expect it to return.

Under the circumstances--moving, ostensibly deleting, and then reinstating my comments--I've been more than reasonable.
post #13 of 132
I guess if people want their questions answered by other than the bootfitters, they are welcome to put the question in the gear forum to here from all and sundry.

I don't think I read the thread in question, as I find it frustrating reading threads and not being able to answer. I do read some of the bootfitting threads, and generally see good advice there.
post #14 of 132
quote joseph - Let's get the facts, shall we? The fact is that my impression about your response was an opinion. My opinion is that your delivery could use work. You could start by getting the chip off of your shoulder, assuming you want discourse more than an opportunity to vent.
post #15 of 132
I was the poster of the original question regarding posting the footbed and the ability of this action to impact alignment. From my perspective as the consumer; a paradox arises and exists pertaining to foot beds and alignment . I've read and researched the subject in an effort to become more informed and educated. I will concede the fact that my understanding of the subject and ability to"connect the dots" is probably flawed.

That being said , the best practice would be to rely on the trained experts and trust their abilities. After all, its a pretty complex subject requiring experience and knowledge. That being said , there appears to be little or no consensus among the boot"experts" regarding this subject. There are many people that have spent a fair amount of money with a "boot expert" and still have yet to achieve having their foot properly supported in the boot . I'm not stating this to be disparaging to your indistry. It just seem to be the "nature of the beast" ,not everybody achieves satisfaction.

One guy is adamant you can align the foot and leg in the boot and sells this service and product, others state this is completely incorrect and applies other methods. As a result, the more you research and try and learn what accompanies that effort is confusion, misunderstanding, and maybe incorrect information.

At the end of the day it is what it is.
post #16 of 132
Thread Starter 

Opinions 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by figurado View Post
quote joseph - Let's get the facts, shall we? The fact is that my impression about your response was an opinion. My opinion is that your delivery could use work. You could start by getting the chip off of your shoulder.
Sure it's just my opinion. Whose opinion would you have me espouse? I mean, are you in the habit of taking positions that secretly differ from your own beliefs? One word for this sort of thing is "lying."

Which brings me right back to the point: I've always had (and always will have) a problem with self-important "experts" selling expensive goods and services that almost nobody needs on the pretense that everyone needs them.

(Please understand: this is my opinion.)

And please forgive me too if I just fasten that chip right where it is, thanks very much.
post #17 of 132
I didn't say anything about your opinion Joseph. I was talking about MY opinion. Read it again, this ain't rocket science. Best you get back to kicking the dog.
post #18 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
I've been lurking for some time now--no input from us amateurs allowed in these threads!--and I'm amazed and saddened by the poor attitudes and BS offered by the "boot guys" here.

Here are my questions:

1. If alignment is generally so poor, how have so many skiers managed so well for so long? (Gosh, surprising we even walk, let alone play sports.)

2. Why on earth would I send a skier to a boot guy who insults the customer in the effort to sell services not needed?
Thought I'd chime in to answer your question with my personal observations, opinion and experience.

Question 1 - Surprising we even walk, let alone play sports -

I often arrive in busy public places, sporting events, etc early and sit and wait. I watch the public move by. I notice how many people have difficulty walking in an efficient or effective manner. Some people are so bad I do in fact wonder how they walk. I would not expect them to be able to ski ! It's just down right painful to put myself in their shoes. I can't imagine having to go through life moving as they do. Could skiing be any better for them if their walking looks so darn painful & misaligned ? Take some time this holiday season to watch people in a mall or busy place. Eye opener. I am thankful for what I have as a result of watching others.

Question 2 - If someone's true motivation is to insult or abuse their customer in an effort to sell an unneeded product, it's pure manipulation for money & no you should not send a skier in for something they don't need. Why would you do that to someone ?

Not having seen your thread I just ask - was that really the motivation you encountered ? Insult someone to force them to purchase something they don't need ? What kind of a consumer would spend money that way ? What professional would be in business past the first 3 months if they did this ?
post #19 of 132
Thread Starter 

Apologies

Quote:
Originally Posted by figurado View Post
I didn't say anything about your opinion Joseph. I was talking about MY opinion. Read it again, this ain't rocket science. Best you get back to kicking the dog.
Hmm, don't know how I misread your post, which I see you've since edited. Anyway, perhaps this explains why I ski instead of design rockets.

Now, where is that damn dog?
post #20 of 132
No problem joseph. I have read through many of your posts to get an idea of what you're about. You're a good egg and I agree with much of what you've posted here. Of course that's just my opinion. Carry on. BTW, my edit added the last part of the last sentence. I edit a lot.
post #21 of 132
Yes Joseph, I too see that he edited it. The sap only gave you three quarters of an hour to compose your reply.

You give attitude, don't be surprised to get it back!
post #22 of 132
Thread Starter 

Gotcha dude!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy P View Post
Yes Joseph, I too see that he edited it. The sap only gave you three quarters of an hour to compose your reply.
Posted at 1:46 PM, last edited at 2:10 PM, which is just 24 minutes, not "three quarters of an hour!"

This whole keyboard/writing thing is really hard, so the extra time matters. And please remember folks, I'm only skier not a rocket man.

(Of course, this is just my opinion. FYI, Mom thinks I'm a rocket scientist.)

Quote:
You give attitude, don't be surprised to get it back!
Do tell.
post #23 of 132
Joseph - You are correct. You had 'only' 24 minutes to read and understand his post, and compose your reply. Not 43.

To the rest of Epicski members, my apologies also for getting involved in this. I think it just encourages him.

Sorry.
post #24 of 132
The edit was completely inconsequential. But we digress.
post #25 of 132
Joseph, what thread are we using as our example of your complaint?
post #26 of 132
Joseph, I heartily invite you to join the TGR forums, where you'll be able to discuss skiing and bootfitting in a relaxed and benevolent athmosphere. Really, that's true. They'll answer all your questions there.
post #27 of 132
I'm guessing pretty much ALL of them... there was a thread about canting alignment and foot beds and why would you need both? I'm pretty sure that is the 'problem'.

Pick any issue and you will find experts (or 'experts') who disagree wholeheartedly about it. Global Warming? Energy crisis? Pizza toppings? Yup, people will disagree. Does that mean there is no point discussing? I don't think so. Does it mean there is no good that can come from the topic due to 'heated' discussion by the experts? Again, I think that's a silly concept.

Does everyone need a biomechanical analysis to ski? Of course not. Will a really nice fitting boot that works with the skier (through correct alignment) improve performance? Of course it will, how could you think it WOULDN'T?

I don't buy tailored clothing... would custom tailored clothes fit me better? As long as it was a good tailor, sure. It's silly to think otherwise... is it critical? Hell no, I make clothes look GOOD.
post #28 of 132
Thread Starter 

One Example

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Joseph, what thread are we using as our example of your complaint?
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=1010055

(Shh. Be very quiet: Jimmy will think you're encouraging me, and he has no sense of humor whatsoever.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by philippeR View Post
Joseph, I heartily invite you to join the TGR forums, where you'll be able to discuss skiing and bootfitting in a relaxed and benevolent athmosphere. Really, that's true. They'll answer all your questions there.
Swell. Do they sell the "alignment" snake oil by the bucket over at TGR as well?
post #29 of 132
There is nothing at all wrong or unsavory in the thread that you've posted.

Your complaint may be based on a misunderstanding of what alignment can and cannot do.... Not that I care about that, just that you're misrepresenting the flavour and content of the thread you've linked.

Shame on you.
post #30 of 132
Thread Starter 

You're invited

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom View Post
I'm guessing pretty much ALL of them... there was a thread about canting alignment and foot beds and why would you need both? I'm pretty sure that is the 'problem'.

Pick any issue and you will find experts (or 'experts') who disagree wholeheartedly about it. Global Warming? Energy crisis? Pizza toppings? Yup, people will disagree. Does that mean there is no point discussing? I don't think so. Does it mean there is no good that can come from the topic due to 'heated' discussion by the experts? Again, I think that's a silly concept.

Does everyone need a biomechanical analysis to ski? Of course not. Will a really nice fitting boot that works with the skier (through correct alignment) improve performance? Of course it will, how could you think it WOULDN'T?

I don't buy tailored clothing... would custom tailored clothes fit me better? As long as it was a good tailor, sure. It's silly to think otherwise... is it critical? Hell no, I make clothes look GOOD.
With all due respect Whiteroom, you haven't even tried to answer the pertinent question. Debates about global warming, pizza and clothing are hardly relevant to why typical skiers need anything more than basic fitting--as opposed to elaborate "alignment" or "biomechanical analysis" or even the Great Harmonic Convergence--in order to ski extremely well.

No one disputes that "a really nice fitting boot" enhances skiing comfort, performance and enjoyment. I've personally benefitted greatly from this aspect of a boot fitter's knowledge and skills. What's controversial here is that contrary and even opposite approaches produce the same outcome, i.e. slightly less wealthy skiers. For the majority of these customers, you could cant them or cuff them this way or that or not at all and it just won't matter: the skier will adjust.

Practice makes perfect. Of course, for a recreational skier at least, no one stands to benefit much from his or her practice time, which probably explains why so few advocate it.

BTW, I'll emphasize again that there was no reason (let alone any good reason) to relegate my thread here. Nevertheless I'm happy to hear from a boot fitter and appreciate the conversation.
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