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Purchasing a KneeBinding???? - Page 5

post #121 of 136

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossi Smash View Post

 

 

I actually ski PX15's on two pair of my newer skis. I do like them BUT not more than the n77's.

 

I don't get the feeling that any of the major players are courting them.....

 

I don't know how wew ould know that. They should be.

post #122 of 136

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

 

 

 

I don't know how we would know that. They should be.

 

It's all about dollars to be made...and if none of the players think the market will support it's sale with

expected profits they will stay away. Money...it's all about money.

post #123 of 136
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post

 

 

and it appears there is an adjustment issue with the people that have had a problem with Toe AFDs.

 

 

One person stripped a part using the wrong tool themselves, apparently in haste, instead of having a factory trained professional use a proper shop tool, and he also had all of his adjustments out of whack with each other. I don't know about you but that's real easy to discount for me as I have 5 sets and none of his issues - but then I leave the adjustment job to the factory trained professionals.

 

OK then, so I just addressed every single issue that has surfaced here, and anywhere else, so make your decision on that basis.

 

 

No sense discussing valid points here as you just completely disregard anything said by others. You just addressed every single issue??? You've got to be kidding right???...........Sorry but you've got an agenda and your posts have become transparent... this Kneebinding thing is getting seedier by the day.........I stand by my original premise that it's a great idea that needs some kinks worked out and therefore should have never gone to the consumer market w/o further development and that is based on working directly in Stowe, with the product, retailer and manufacturer.
 

 

This thread has exposed a side of the ski market that the average consumer hardly sees.....lawsuits, equipment R&D, marketing, etc..... It's a tribute to this website that this can actually take place and be seen in a public forum.........KUDOS TO EPIC! Thanks for providing this forum. KUDOS to the Retailer in Stowe that I bought this product from as it was AWESOME working with them! They ROCK!......and KUDOS to the Kneebinding Co. and to Rick Howell for bringing this product to market and allowing this conversation to take place. Thanks guys and I think overall we're on the right track! 

 

 

 

 

post #124 of 136
post #125 of 136

Wow.

post #126 of 136

This thread is a news article now.  The sequence of events looks to be a bit off, but interesting. 

 

 

Stowe Today Kneebinding Article

post #127 of 136

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post

 

Wow.

Yep. There's a Made-for-TV-Movie here, let's call it "Stowe Lost." Complete with disgruntled inventors who may or may not be telling the truth, mysterious high powered venture capitalists, fellow passengers who don't know who to believe, but some of them apparently shills and co-conspirators. Gotta love it. 

post #128 of 136

 They had a KneeBinding demo yesterday too. Of course I didn't hear about it until today. :(

post #129 of 136

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRISfromRI View Post

 

Rossi Smash: When you say too many issues I think you need to put everything that's surfaced here into perspective, and once you you that's great that you have made your decision. I think there was a lot of great information that came out right here in this thread. However, I believe there are also a lot of biased comments and opinions here that need to be waded through.

 

First of all you have my opinion. I'm an expert skier that's skied on these bindings a real lot and like the way they work. I have a family skiing on them with no worries and we're all having a great experience.I've had the actual injury these bindings were designed to avoid, and I would like to avoid that happening again to me or to my family, and am happy to pay extra and even put a little elbow grease into the prospect of doing so.

So your family also is testing prototypes? Do they know?

 

Yes, Rick could have done a better job engineering the Heel AFD, but as a professional engineer myself I found an easy solution that completely cures that issue. In addition, I have communicated all of that success clearly with the factory to help them make their decision as to what exactly they are going to do on an ongoing basis about the Heel AFD. I have also described the fix here in great detail for others to consider.

So you're not just an innocent tester?

 

Now with respect to Rick he has spouted lots of allegations, but he is quite obviously a very disgruntled ex-employee. I half wonder myself if he didn't short change the company with his inadequate Heel AFD design as a parting shot of revenge.

Note description of inventor and former ceo of Knee Binding as "disgruntled ex-employee". I wonder if Apple described Steve Jobs that way when they forced him out years ago.

 

I don't know this, and it's just my own thought, and like I said before there are no doubt 3 sides to the story of Rick leaving KneeBinding. However, in all of Rick's pages and pages of spouting allegations, haven't you noticed that not one other defect than the AFDs and the brakes were ever cited? Where are those other defects and as you can see in the video, they simply aren't evident after LOTS of skiing on them. From where I sit the design is fundamentally excellent, and I commend Rick for that.

Unfortunately there's a gag order on. We're left with you who communicates regularly with the company.  Note the company has never responded to anything here of substance.

 

We have not had any problems with Toe AFDs at all, and it appears there is an adjustment issue with the people that have had a problem with Toe AFDs.

We = your family? Ok. Even though you admitted AFD problems before. You disregard that experience as an anamoly.

 

Some of the brakes were initally sticky out of the box but a little Vaseline immediately and permanently fixed that, and our brakes have always worked fine after every fall where we had a release. By the time the Vaseline wore away, the parts had broken in and there was no longer any issue.

Great. Here's a binding you have to do preventative maintenance on when brand new. Wait how much does it cost? $500?

 

One person stripped a part using the wrong tool themselves, apparently in haste, instead of having a factory trained professional use a proper shop tool, and he also had all of his adjustments out of whack with each other. I don't know about you but that's real easy to discount for me as I have 5 sets and none of his issues - but then I leave the adjustment job to the factory trained professionals.

Plastic adjustment screw = garbage. Use of such a screw = shoddy.

 

As an engineer I would think you'd understand the formula that us regular users understand.

 

OK then, so I just addressed every single issue that has surfaced here, and anywhere else, so make your decision on that basis. If you want to use the status quo traditional bindings without lateral heel release, then great for you. I wish you luck and sincerely hope you can avoid the injury I sustained while I was on them. Other people may be willing to use this product to mitigate that risk, and that's fine for them too - although maybe you don't think so.

Decision:  KneeBinding in current production = no way.

 

Personally, I'm hoping that this product catches on and saves a lot of people from the injury that I sustained while skiing on traditional bindings. I know I will buy more of them and recommend them as well to my skiing friends, especially those that ski well, because they generally ski a lot are at greater risk like I was. I also hear from the factory that all of these cited experiences and opportunities for improvement are being taken into account for future production, and retrofitting existing production. What more can we ask from them? How does your proposed boycott help us to obtain and use a better and safer product?

It's hardly a boycott when you've never even considered buying someone's product before.

What more could we ask of them? Well, how about actually field testing testing the prototype before putting it on the market. How about producing a quality product that doesn't need fixing out of the box and is judged to be worth $500? 

 

 

post #130 of 136
Thread Starter 

Ditto on the WOW factor!

 

I was at Umiak today getting ready for kayak season...........had I known this I would have picked up a copy of the Stowe Reporter at the Green Goddess cafe............

post #131 of 136

Unbelievable.  So the bindings may not self-destruct, but the company appears to be.  If anything, Rick was adding some credibility to the fundamental design.

post #132 of 136

Knee Binding Review

                                                               

Me:

150 lbs., 5’-7”

Masters ski racer

Mechanical engineer

 

I tore my ACL tendon 4 years ago.  I had it repaired with a patella tendon graft 2 years ago.  I have been waiting for the Knee Binding as it seamed like cheap insurance.

 

I had the bindings mounted in January 2009 to a pair of GS race skis.  My first impression was that they clamped the ski to the boot more rigidly than other bindings.  At first this was un-nerving as they seemed much less forgiving, but I soon became used to the feeling.

 

The first time skiing, I lost all 4 anti-skid pads because I was taking the skis off each run to ride the Keystone gondola at night. The Company has not come up with a fix for this yet, but they have changed the heal so that the anti-skid pocket is now filled in with plastic.

 

My second time skiing I was hit from behind by a snowboarder (who didn’t bother to stop) and knocked me out of one ski.  That toe binding twisted past its normal limits and slightly damaged the plastic housing.  (I do not think it would not have been damaged if it had been aluminum)

 

Update after 11 days skiing in Chile and 35 days total:

 

I was skiing with the bindings set 1.5 din settings lower than my race setting, 7.5 versus 9.0 in an attempt to avoid potential knee injuries. I had an upward heel pre-release skiing fast through moguls.  I don’t think this was the fault of the bindings, just too low a setting for my skiing.  I have yet to have a fall where the bindings released sideways at either the heel or the toe.  I can twist out though with some effort.

 

I have had two additional problems with the bindings.  The plastic screwdriver slot adjustment on the heal began to strip out when I adjusted tension with a slightly undersized screwdriver.  I was surprised, as this has never happened with metal adjustment screws.  When taking the skis off, the brakes are no longer deploying.  In a fall with release, I am fairly certain the brakes would no longer deploy properly.  The brakes have worn a groove into the plastic housing preventing them from deploying.

 

While I like the concept of these Kneebindings, I cannot recommend them until the problems with the antiskid plates, the plastic adjustment screws and the brake deployment are fixed. 

 

I hope the company is moving rapidly to fix these problems. It would be great if the company would make a public statement explaining how these problems have been or will shortly be fixed.

Update on 2010 Model:

The factory is now offering brake/antiskid upgrades to the toe and heal units.  The new parts will have bi-injected teflon anti-skid pads with modified brake units. They also tell me that the plastic adjustment heal screw has been redesigned with a tougher plastic. I am still hoping for a a model with a more durable aluminum housing.


Edited by mountainsport500 - 11/6/09 at 12:46pm
post #133 of 136

After doing my research on Kneebinding I realized that I would like to ski on one. At the beginning of my skiing experience I had one of those falls where you fall backwards on a smal speed and significanly mess up your knee. Fortunately for me It wasn't a big injury and I am back skiing, however my knee now pops out once in a while and I always have to worry about it.

Anyway, I am trying to figure out, If I have a choice of installing my kneebinding on my powder skis or groomer skis, which one should I go to? I ski mostly on groomed since we don't get much powder, however when we do I dive righ in it trying to learn how to handle myself. Which snow condition do you guys think are most likely to cause serious knee demage? One would assume that powder is soft and therfore gentle when you fall. On the other hand, I most likely to fall a lot while learning how to ski powder and I almost never fall when skiing groomed runs unless I try to do something new.

post #134 of 136

The Knee Binding doesn't seem to have any different release mechanism than the well-proven Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings with the pivot-heels (which someone posted a picture of above).  Look bindings have had the pivoting lateral heel release since at least the 1970's.  Why on earth would I pay more money and risk my knees for a binding from an unknown company on an unproven design, when I can buy a cheaper, time-tested, proven binding from a company that has a decades-long track record, decades of exeperience, massive economy-of-scale, manufacturing prowess, and a huge R&D budget?

 

It is widely accepted that most ACL injuries occur in backward twisting falls, so the most important thing in preventing ACL injuries is to have an upward toe release mechanism, which generally means having a large amount of rearward travel on the heel-piece so that the toe can release upward.  All major bindings have such rearward heel-piece travel to enable upward toe release.  Look/Rossi/Dnyastar bindings claim to have the largest amount of rearward heel-piece travel for a safe upward toe release.  (Not sure if that's just marketing hype.)

 

I have recently become a Look/Rossi/Dynastar binding convert.  I've skied on many Marker and Salomon bindings over the last few decades and I've always had falls and injuries from my Marker's and Salomon's pre-releasing.  I had stayed away from Look bindings because my first set of skis (in the late 1970s) had Look bindings which worked fine but were a pain-in-the-butt to release by pushing down on the heel piece with your ski pole because the pole would slip out of the groove as you pushed down.  The newer Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings solved that manual-release problem, so about 4 years ago I bought a pair of Look PX-12s, and since then I have become a total convert to Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings.  I ski very aggressively about 45 days/year, charging the steepest off-piste that Squaw Valley has to offer, including relatively insane stuff like Palisades.  I'm 5'6", 150lbs, ski at a DIN setting 8.5, and usually fall about once a day. The Looks never seem to pre-release, and only release when they're supposed to.  I know a lot of aggressive skiers who similarly have become Look/Rossi/Dynastar binding converts once they tried them.

 

If Knee Bindings prove themselves for about 5 years, maybe I'll consider switching.  Until then, I'm skiing Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings.

post #135 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by RazzMaTazz View Post

The Knee Binding doesn't seem to have any different release mechanism than the well-proven Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings with the pivot-heels (which someone posted a picture of above).  Look bindings have had the pivoting lateral heel release since at least the 1970's.  Why on earth would I pay more money and risk my knees for a binding from an unknown company on an unproven design, when I can buy a cheaper, time-tested, proven binding from a company that has a decades-long track record, decades of exeperience, massive economy-of-scale, manufacturing prowess, and a huge R&D budget?

 

It is widely accepted that most ACL injuries occur in backward twisting falls, so the most important thing in preventing ACL injuries is to have an upward toe release mechanism, which generally means having a large amount of rearward travel on the heel-piece so that the toe can release upward.  All major bindings have such rearward heel-piece travel to enable upward toe release.  Look/Rossi/Dnyastar bindings claim to have the largest amount of rearward heel-piece travel for a safe upward toe release.  (Not sure if that's just marketing hype.)

 

I have recently become a Look/Rossi/Dynastar binding convert.  I've skied on many Marker and Salomon bindings over the last few decades and I've always had falls and injuries from my Marker's and Salomon's pre-releasing.  I had stayed away from Look bindings because my first set of skis (in the late 1970s) had Look bindings which worked fine but were a pain-in-the-butt to release by pushing down on the heel piece with your ski pole because the pole would slip out of the groove as you pushed down.  The newer Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings solved that manual-release problem, so about 4 years ago I bought a pair of Look PX-12s, and since then I have become a total convert to Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings.  I ski very aggressively about 45 days/year, charging the steepest off-piste that Squaw Valley has to offer, including relatively insane stuff like Palisades.  I'm 5'6", 150lbs, ski at a DIN setting 8.5, and usually fall about once a day. The Looks never seem to pre-release, and only release when they're supposed to.  I know a lot of aggressive skiers who similarly have become Look/Rossi/Dynastar binding converts once they tried them.

 

If Knee Bindings prove themselves for about 5 years, maybe I'll consider switching.  Until then, I'm skiing Look/Rossi/Dynastar bindings.


There is so much wrong with this post, but I'll just ask you this; if the backward twisting fall is the main cause of ACL injuries, and upward toe release guards against that fall, and all major bindings have that, then why do we still have a plague of ACL injuries?

 

post #136 of 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post




There is so much wrong with this post, but I'll just ask you this; if the backward twisting fall is the main cause of ACL injuries, and upward toe release guards against that fall, and all major bindings have that, then why do we still have a plague of ACL injuries?

 



Actually, vertical toe release seems to be absent on most top of the line bindings. It's not a feature on the Duke/Jester toe, nor on the Look Pivot series. Same with the Salomon driver toe. I think Tyrolia's aero toe is the only binding from a major manufacturer that has it.

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