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Interesting

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Indeed..... very interesting..... some elements of countersteering in there.... double pusch, does that have something to do with pumping?
post #3 of 24
Well Stenmark was a master in that back in the seventies. Meanwhile our legs need to work in one unit, in skating you have them work separately. good practice for skiing, but not even close to our sport as far as the movement goes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Indeed..... very interesting..... some elements of countersteering in there.... double pusch, does that have something to do with pumping?
post #4 of 24
Skidude72,

????
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Well Stenmark was a master in that back in the seventies. Meanwhile our legs need to work in one unit, in skating you have them work separately. good practice for skiing, but not even close to our sport as far as the movement goes.
Outside dominant, lift tip and edge. moving mass forwards while over the outside edge, using edging and pressure to rebound. No similarities what so ever ? Look again.

What should we be understanding here Skidude72 ?
post #6 of 24
Yep, Stenmark made a career out of it. Debbie Armstrong won a gold medal with it. We still do it at times today, even in a race course, but only as a supplimental strategy in special situations, not as a go-to technique.

Thousand steps drill lets you play around with it, while developing dynamic balance and agility.

Dany, Simplyfast, you must be as old as I am.
post #7 of 24
He come on now, stop talking about our age. They would not be able to tell after we beat them down the hill though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Yep, Stenmark made a career out of it. Debbie Armstrong won a gold medal with it. We still do it at times today, even in a race course, but only as a supplimental strategy in special situations, not as a go-to technique.

Thousand steps drill lets you play around with it, while developing dynamic balance and agility.

Dany, Simplyfast, you must be as old as I am.
post #8 of 24

Interesting

Who was Stenmark, some GS wannabee? Way before my time. You guys must really be old!
post #9 of 24
Im surpriced at you guys, nothing even close to Stenmark's scating in that video. You obviously missed the whole point....
post #10 of 24
The 'Double Push' described for inline skating isn't at all like typical skating in skiing as there is a foot-crossover aspect that is impossible with long skis.

Still, the idea is relevant in the way a second lateral movement is used twice - which is possible in skiing.

When doing the Downhill Skating Task for the Level 3 Exam we generally try not to build up too much speed but that movement pattern is very close to the Double Push - just without the pushing part because we don't want any more speed.

When doing the Downhill Skate we can get more speed by stepping to the outside-edge of the new stance ski such that both skis are on complimentary edges. Normally, we step to that ski and immediately tip it to the inside edge and skate again. To do the Double Push here we just need to step that new stance ski (onto its outside-edge) a bit further to the side (making a wide step) and then 'push' off it again for a partial "second stroke" to that same side.

When doing the Downhill Skate on very mild terrain I sometimes try to get a little more speed this way, and yes, it works. It works best when you already have a good deal of speed. It seems to work because each 'step' moves our Mass to closer to the center of the current turn radius which is exactly how Acceleration Turns work.

.ma
post #11 of 24
Yeah, I guess that spreads the man from the boys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Im surpriced at you guys, nothing even close to Stenmark's scating in that video. You obviously missed the whole point....
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Yeah, I guess that spreads the man from the boys.
I guess that makes you a baby !
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
The 'Double Push' described for inline skating isn't at all like typical skating in skiing as there is a foot-crossover aspect that is impossible with long skis.

Still, the idea is relevant in the way a second lateral movement is used twice - which is possible in skiing.

When doing the Downhill Skating Task for the Level 3 Exam we generally try not to build up too much speed but that movement pattern is very close to the Double Push - just without the pushing part because we don't want any more speed.

When doing the Downhill Skate we can get more speed by stepping to the outside-edge of the new stance ski such that both skis are on complimentary edges. Normally, we step to that ski and immediately tip it to the inside edge and skate again. To do the Double Push here we just need to step that new stance ski (onto its outside-edge) a bit further to the side (making a wide step) and then 'push' off it again for a partial "second stroke" to that same side.

When doing the Downhill Skate on very mild terrain I sometimes try to get a little more speed this way, and yes, it works. It works best when you already have a good deal of speed. It seems to work because each 'step' moves our Mass to closer to the center of the current turn radius which is exactly how Acceleration Turns work.

.ma
Interesting reading. Still, I dont see how this double push could be done with skis. IMO, to mimic the inline scater we should be stepping and pushing onto our BTE of our old inside ski that would be tracking slighty towards the outside offsetting our CoM to the inside of the turn causing us to lose our balance to the inside. In the next instance we would make a recovery move with the inside ski tipped on its LTE and carving towards the inside of the turn and correcting our base of support. Same time as we would be giving it a second push. Hmmmmm??? Maybe stepping onto a flat ski and then tipping it to its LTE......

Anyway, scating is very common in skiing. Just not alpine skiing. In nordic cross country skiing, that we happen to do a lot here in scandinavia, it is used as primary technique to go fast. There is a very special technique for doing it right and it involves pushing yourselfe off backwards. In x-country skiing you cannot offset your balance outside the base of support provided by your skis. You will fall in that direction. So what is different in alpine skiing? Shaped skis. But are they shaped enough to snap arround and keep you upright?

There are similarities between inliners, ice scates, alpine skis and x-country skis but there are also differences. Still, Skidudes opening post pritty much covers it all: interesting .
post #14 of 24
tdk6, the skating maneuver in the vid is very similar to skating on skis, and accomplishes the same objective, to increase speed. Both thrust off the outside leg onto the outside (little toe) side/edge of the foot/ski/skate.

The main difference is in the little countersteer thing he's doing to get the body inside the skate and ready for the next big thrust. The thing they're labeling as the second push. In skiing we can't facilitate such a quick countersteer, the skis are too long to allow it. But we can still to it to a degree needed to get the job done.

Michael A, I'm glad to hear PSIA is doing skating as a test element of L3. It's a valuable skill to focus on and develop. Do they require thousand step skills too? I have 4 versions of it displayed in the next DVD I just completed, with slo-mo and freeze frame showing exactly how they're done.

tdk6, my DVD shows clearly the thrust onto outside (little toe) edge with CM inside/uphill of the ski. When I do the transitions DVD it will show the skate to outside edge, and skate to flat, followed with roll to inside edge, in a similar slo-mo/freeze manner. Inside to inside with a diverging step is very difficult, and generally done with a converging theme. All of these are not default skiing technique anymore, but still come in handy at times, and should be in the quiver of skill options.

Actually, this topic has fostered an idea for a thread topic you guys may enjoyed exloring. I'll throw it up now.
post #15 of 24
Rick, the whole point with this inline video is to show the double push technique. I do ice scating, hockey, inlining, alpine skiing and cross country skiing but this particular technique is new to me. Only goes to show that you never know when someting new is poppin up right in front of you.

Offcourse its possible to scate onto the LTE, how else would we be able to ski with only one ski. You did that on your video, good work. Which I could do it half as well. But as you pointed out yourself, that small countersteering move is not possible and thats what this thread is all about.
post #16 of 24
I do not understand why this is new to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Rick, the whole point with this inline video is to show the double push technique. I do ice scating, hockey, inlining, alpine skiing and cross country skiing but this particular technique is new to me. Only goes to show that you never know when someting new is poppin up right in front of you.

Offcourse its possible to scate onto the LTE, how else would we be able to ski with only one ski. You did that on your video, good work. Which I could do it half as well. But as you pointed out yourself, that small countersteering move is not possible and thats what this thread is all about.
post #17 of 24
I got to thinking about a demo description for the idea as it would be enacted on skis... Consider the step sideways when skating.

Normally, we step sideways (say) with the right foot by extending the left leg (the one we're pushing off of). The left leg extends to drive our body to the right and we might land on the right leg while it remains a bit flexed. Once that right ski is on the snow we generally just extend that right leg while rolling the right ski onto the Inside-Edge, and then start the cycle over again.

To incorporate a double push...
Step sideways again with the right foot by extending the left leg (the one we're pushing off of). The left leg extends to drive our body to the right and we land on the right leg while it remains a bit flexed. This time make sure you land on the outside-edge with the ski a bit diverging. Once the right ski is on the snow extend that right leg progressively while maintaining edge-angle on that outside-edge. Just before your right leg is fully extended, begin rolling the right ski onto the Inside-Edge, and then start the cycle over again.

By extending while still firmly on that outside-edge we move our Mass to the inside of the newly set turn radius defined by the freshly landed diverging ski. So long as we're carving that ski it will hold and give us something to extend against.


Rick,
I too see the necessary counter-steering aspect of this but it's not counter-steering that produces the acceleration (thrust), it's the movement of Mass further to the inside of the turn radius.

In the skiing example above, as we extend that right leg the final bit of range we can allow our our body to follow its inertial path while the ski continues to curve under us (Counter-steering) which repositions our CM/BoS relationship to start the cycle over again (as you mention). As I see it, counter-steering is a necessary component to reposition things for the next thrust but not part of the thrusting itself.

PSIA has been teaching a variety of Skating and Downhill Skating drills for a very long time. Skating drills have been part or Exams for as long as I can recall. Skating is part of the L1, L2 and L3 Exams in our PNW division. 1,000 Steps is a practice drill here but not part of the Exam Task list for anything - but can be asked for in any Exam by any Examiner as they wish.

If I had to guess when I first figured out the acceleration aspect of what's being called a 'double-push' in skating I'd say it was back when I was in a clinic for Level 1 doing 1,000 Steps on a mild run. When taking so many diverging steps in a turn and extending that new leg you can't help but discover the effect described. It was pretty funny watching 15 people doing 1,000 Steps all at once, in all directions (en-mass) down a wide open mild slope. Looked like everyone had hot coals in the bottom of their boots. Surprised there were no collisions. If I get the chance, I think I'll ask a clinic group to do it this year and capture it on video...

Oh - and for your DVD, how about putting in some honest-to-goodness Acceleration Turns? I think people would want to see that (especially the disbelievers).

I clearly remember a demo from long ago by clinician Marty O' showing how a turning skier can easily outpace a straight running skier. He asked a disbelieving friend of mine start out facing straight downhill and just release his restraining poles to take off - pure gravity driven. Meanwhile, Marty did exactly the same, but facing mostly at a diagonal. At first, Marty fell behind but after 'pumping' about five complete turns caught up and passed his rival at high speed. Doing a demo this way leaves no doubt about the reality of this movement pattern.

.ma
post #18 of 24
The "double push" is sort of a misnomer. The muscles that are activated are the same as those you activate by a "cross over" or simpler, by doing backwards crossovers and skating in a circle.

When skating backwards in a circle the inside leg actually reaches into the circle and pulls you inwards. This movement corresponds to the first push as the glide leg is set-down on outside edge. Now, th glide leg must pass under the body and perform the usual push to the outside.

To transfer this movment to skiing, think of turn exit and early weight shift to the inside ski. As "reaching in" goes, lets say our stance is fairly wide. Also think of a longer distance between turns, as you will be pulling your body onto the outside edge of the uphill ski prior to flattening and tipping to the inside edge when outside ski dominance resumes.

I can only imagine that as an "outside-inside" transition -- from outside edge to inside edge.
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
I do not understand why this is new to you.
No, its completely new to me. Is it very common in Austria?
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Oh - and for your DVD, how about putting in some honest-to-goodness Acceleration Turns? I think people would want to see that (especially the disbelievers).
Good idea, Michael. Seeing I haven't done the filming for the transitions edition yet, I'll include it in the shots list.
post #21 of 24
I let you find that out. Try it with Ski History.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
No, its completely new to me. Is it very common in Austria?
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Rick, the whole point with this inline video is to show the double push technique. I do ice scating, hockey, inlining, alpine skiing and cross country skiing but this particular technique is new to me.
This technique is unique to inline speed skating. On the World Inline Cup, if you don't have a double push, you are not competitive.
post #23 of 24
Another application to skiing:

1 ski skiing. Just be careful how aggresively you pull to create the first push.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
This technique is unique to inline speed skating. On the World Inline Cup, if you don't have a double push, you are not competitive.
Yes, World Inline Cup scating is totally unknown to me. Very nice to get a deeper insight in high end inlining.
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