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Harald Harb's PMTS methodology, how do you rate it ?  

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I am with his book " Essentials of skiing " now and like it, IMO compared to our european ski books the lecture is simple and intuitive. How do you rate Harald's job in America ? Compared to other american autors ?
post #2 of 24
I've got all the skiing books available from Amazon, and I like this book the best. (Of course many others disagree.) Since you mentioned this book, the 1st of 3 accompanying DVDs was published last week. The other two will be available shortly. If you like the book, you'll probably like them too.
post #3 of 24
Let the fun begin. Or was this a troll?
post #4 of 24
post #5 of 24
You haven't hung around here much, have you?

From my limited knowledge of ski technique and instruction, many of his ideas make sense. There are probably a few problems he glosses over, but it seems that most really good skiers use PMTS movements, whether they know anything about Harb or not. I don't know enough about instructing to know if his methodology works or not.
post #6 of 24
Ironically, Amazon just sent me an email this morning recommending this book. I may have to check it out.

I did pick up "Breakthrough on the New Skis" last year, which is at least PMTS-inspired. They've got some interesting ideas, but I understand there's been some... disagreement between PMTS and PSIA advocates at times. To put it mildly.

Interesting to contrast it with the PSIA methodology -- I'm taking an instructor training course right now at a mountain that teaches PSIA technique. Very broadly, PMTS seems to stress edging and especially pressure control a lot more (especially use of weight shift in turning), and neglects (or even advises against) rotary skills. At least that's my impression of it from what I know so far.
post #7 of 24
Um.....trying to do a public service here. If you are a troll, please go away.

You have stepped in a quagmire early in your Epic career.
PMTS has many followers, some of them overly enthusiastic. They have been a source of some friction here. Many of the posters and management here are from the PSIA side of the tracks and resulting conflict has brought out the best and the worst of this site.

Personally, I would say, read the book. His methods, and others have helped people become better skiers.
post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by evansilver View Post
Let the fun begin. Or was this a troll?
Ops, so Herb's stuff is controversial here ?
post #9 of 24
Is there somewhere I can read a summary of PMTS? I have no idea what it is about, other than there is some drama here with the guy behind it, I don't care about that, just want to get a basic understanding.
post #10 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post
Is there somewhere I can read a summary of PMTS? I have no idea what it is about, other than there is some drama here with the guy behind it, I don't care about that, just want to get a basic understanding.


me too, I don't want to fan the flames.If somebody want to call me a troll, go on, I don't care.
post #11 of 24
It would be considered marketing to go into much detail, and many of the devout PMTS skiers are no longer here.. Google PMTS.
post #12 of 24

Or jump to a related site

Peter Keelty's Site is closely linked to Harold and PMTS and will give you access to the PMTS forums along with some good gear reviews. Click on the "ski instruction that gets results" link (his words, not mine!).
post #13 of 24
MG,

Harald's books and DVDs sell very well (best sellers in the ski category). PMTS represents <1% of the American on snow ski instruction market. In the past, Epic has had problems with PMTS supporters coming to Epic with an apparent intent to disrupt our community. As such, we make an extra effort to manage "excess" posts that tout PMTS and moderate "excess" debate on the "PMTS vs ..." topic.

If you want to find out more information about PMTS on Epic, please use the search feature. We have dozens of threads and thousands of posts covering PMTS. If you want to go to the source, you can start with the PMTS web site or the PMTS forum. If you want to know why our policy has been established, just post a message on the PMTS forum and ask them what they think about Epicski.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
Peter Keelty's Site is closely linked to Harold and PMTS and will give you access to the PMTS forums along with some good gear reviews. Click on the "ski instruction that gets results" link (his words, not mine!).

just to be clear, Peter has no affiliation to HH or PMTS, he links our site as well. actually, Peter is much more alligned with John Clendenon's methods, which I think are far superior.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post
Is there somewhere I can read a summary of PMTS? I have no idea what it is about, other than there is some drama here with the guy behind it, I don't care about that, just want to get a basic understanding.
This should give you an idea of what Harald's on about, and why it's a controversial subject.
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias99 View Post
Interesting to contrast it with the PSIA methodology -- I'm taking an instructor training course right now at a mountain that teaches PSIA technique. Very broadly, PMTS seems to stress edging and especially pressure control a lot more (especially use of weight shift in turning), and neglects (or even advises against) rotary skills. At least that's my impression of it from what I know so far.
I think Matthias99 has summarized the differences somewhat succinctly. To expand it a bit more, a PSIA / CSIA instructor will probably (at some point anyway) work with students to learn how to use rotary movements effectively to turn the legs under the body. PSIA / CSIA (and many other ski organizations for that matter) consider the ability to turn the legs (rotary skills) an integral part of the skill set required for effective skiing (along with balance, pressure control and edging movements). A PMTS instuctor / program wouldn't really work with a student in the same way, but would attempt to create a similar result via pressure control and edging (what they often call "tipping") movements.

Even though I am a staff trainer at a PSIA ski school, I find Harb's methodology to have some good things, and I've used some of his exercises and concepts.

Mike
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
MG,

In the past, Epic has had problems with PMTS supporters coming to Epic with an apparent intent to disrupt our community. .

Actually, Epic has had a problem with management perceiving many fine posts as an attempt to disrupt our community. (Just kidding...you see the problem though)
post #18 of 24
I am here to post in this important thread. Thank you.
post #19 of 24
Howdy stranger, new to these parts huh?

MG, just sit back and wait until the thread count gets over 100 before responding again (it will probably take a few more hours).

You're in for nice ride, and some good advice, but it may be hard tell which is which.
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
Um.....trying to do a public service here. If you are a troll, please go away.

You have stepped in a quagmire early in your Epic career.
PMTS has many followers, some of them overly enthusiastic. They have been a source of some friction here. Many of the posters and management here are from the PSIA side of the tracks and resulting conflict has brought out the best and the worst of this site.

Personally, I would say, read the book. His methods, and others have helped people become better skiers.
Let's hope Jack Bauer is still able to defuse nukes....
anyway...
The friction has very little to do with differing schools of thought despite what you'll be told at his site. It's actually amazing it'll even be discussed here since his site spends a large % of time bashing this one. But then again he bashes the entire world of skiing that doesn't agree with him. Actually it's not the techniques "the world" has probs with, it's his marketing through insult and denial.
The conflict results from there can be no discussion of the technical issues. It has nothing to do with people being from "traditional teaching schools". This lack of being able to discuss the issues without trashing everyone else has been going on for 10 years. Frankly, everyone is bored and fed up with it by now.

Quote:
If you want to know why our policy has been established, just post a message on the PMTS forum and ask them what they think about Epicski.-therusty
brilliant statement. basically this experiment will tell you all.

1st book:
One of lowest production value books ever written. This is why book companies hire editors. Talk about whining. blah blah blah. Just give me the info!!! god help us.- skip!
When the book burning police visit my house this is the one I'll placate them with.

Instructor's Manual (this is not avail from amazon)
-- Where's my promised treatise on boot alignment?!! Totally missing and thus very disappointing.

After that there was drastic improvement in the book quality so I'll let you decide on your own.

Interesting to note that the demo of the two-footed release, a corner stone drill, actually shows a blocking pole plant. If this were a task at some schools that demo would fail.

There's some good stuff in there and at least you can go ask questions. You also might want to ask others too...or...stick with grape!...
so...
have fun!!!
post #21 of 24
I always looked at instruction, regardless of the source, as a means to an end. Skiing is about having fun, at least to me. If youre not having fun, you might as well just take up curling in the winter.

If you're objective is to lose weight, you will sample the goods -- The South Beach diet, The Atkin's Diet, Wait Watchers etc. You are bound to hear controversy. Some will say the South Beach diet sucks, gotta go with Atkins. Atkins will say South Beach sucks.

Like any diet sponsor, the ultimate goal of PSIA, PMTS, Clenenden method etc., is to sell a product -- theirs. In the end, it's all about money and marketshare, nothing more. For the ski industry, including the school systems, it's not about having fun, it's about running a business. Everyone's livelihood is connected to their product so naturally there will be disputes and finger pointing when there is competition.

Like those who went through a diet regimen succesffully, those who hadf success with a particular ski methodology will naturally share their success and reccomend the program over all the others on the market.

I wish everyone would calm down about ski methods. If it works for you great. If it doesn't, find something else. There are plenty of schools and camps out there that will be glad to have your business -- and your money.

PMTS, PSIA, who cares. Again, its about having fun.
post #22 of 24
I bought that same book over the summer, but was too lazy to read it.

That said, I ski with quite a few PMTS ex-pats and all the tips they've imparted to me have been a great aid in improving my rough-around-the-edges steeze.

I actually learned to carve last season (never had much need to carve in Cali and had fallen into a slide/slarve frame of mind and body).

I have glossed through the book and really need to hunker down with it, but I think Dawg captured what I feel: the break downs are simple and quite a lot of the solid skiers I find myself trying to keep up with use the skills illustrated by PMTS, whether they learned it from Harb or not.

Other'n that you'll also find a large core of people who refer to this methodology as "PMS" and believe it to be a bit anally centered in nature, if you know what I mean.

I'm personally all about picking up skills and tips beneficial to my style regardless of where the origininated.
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGskier View Post
Quote:
Is there somewhere I can read a summary of PMTS? I have no idea what it is about, other than there is some drama here with the guy behind it, I don't care about that, just want to get a basic understanding.


me too, I don't want to fan the flames.If somebody want to call me a troll, go on, I don't care.
Now that I've seen this... I'd say it's the very definition of trolling.
The site to find out a "summary" has been posted. Go Look.
post #24 of 24
ok - folks - we've seen pro and con and had to moderate already. Lest we get into the old arguments or rehashing what's been rehashed to death - that's enough. Thus the thread is being closed.
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