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Up, Up and away

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 
This thread is intended as a sequel to the excellent discussion by Bob Barnes and Weems in the thread on fluidity of motion. We learned that an up motion is required to finish the turn. I can well remember a racing seminar at Gray Rocks where the coaching was mainly to tell you the timing of "up" as you finished the turn around the gate. But then the revelation came that the final preferred move was really forward and lateral. So how do we project our body in the appropriate direction as we come out of the turn? Is it appropriate to think of a weighted release here?

[ October 02, 2002, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: HarveyD ]
post #2 of 8
What up motion?

(from the other post of the same name)

My belief here is that forward and lateral is the natural next step from this "up". The thing is that "up" is kind of a misnomer and perhaps too closely associated with the old move for up unweight. I feel we're really talking about extension of the leg in order to not lose all the pressure/energy. If you keep sinking/collapsing (through the belly of the turn), you just bottom out and lose all your juice. If you extend, or at least stop the flexion, you can keep enough load to store energy for the next turn (or entry to the fall line). The forward and lateral is a similar thing for maintaining and redirecting energy through the transition. Forward keeps the hips from breaking/collapsing--keeps them caught-up so they can give the leg some extension power (try extending your leg with your hip behind). The lateral part is where the edge comes into play. Here, since you are changing edges, moving laterally is moving down the hill to the new set. This also helps with the extension (up) but in a manner where the new outside leg now starts to extend/pressure as the old one lets go some of its pressure by flexing. Note: the legs here do not flex/extend(up)equally with changing edge angles . So, in my view the forward and lateral both manage pressure and direct the resultant energy into the new turn.

So,yeah. Weighted release would be an okay way to describe it.

One other thing--in my best turns, max pressure seems to be applied during the fall line part of the arc, with a little less through the transition. The reason is that the transition tends to overload the ski because of the ski's new attitude to gravity. I've got to be softer there to keep from chattering. This means that this so called up motion is not hugely aggressive. The aggression is, as your coaches told you--forward and across.

Clear? Yeah, me neither.

[ October 02, 2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #3 of 8
Actually, Harvey, I think I may have mislead you. When I worked with the Mahres at Keystone, especially 10-15 years ago, they strongly emphasized a lot of "vertical motion" (up/down motion). In today's skiing, we tend to see less up/down, especially in higher speed linked, carved turns, for several reasons (equipment capabilities for one, as well as better understanding). While we still flex and extend, sometimes through the entire possible range, the actual "up and down" of it is more an effect of angulating and relaxing angles, than a functional movement in itself.

So what I MEANT to say was that IF you like to think in terms of up/down motion, or flexing and extending (not that you SHOULD), you should think of starting the turn tall, flexing as needed for angulation and pressure control, and finishing the turn tall--as opposed to just starting tall and finishing flexed.

I probably could have described my point better--this is a potentially confusing and controversial area that I probably should have just stayed away from!

The more contemporary part of my description in the other thread talked of starting and finishing in "neutral," which is not necessarily "tall," and would only involve an extension if you had previously FLEXED earlier in the turn.

That "forward and lateral" move of the body in the turn transition really IS the "up" motion--and it is a much more accurate description. But it does not just happen in the transition! It is merely a segment of the constant, directed, "flowing" movement of your body all the way through the turn, into the transition, and into the next turn. You asked, "how do we project our body in the appropriate direction as we come out of the turn?" I answer that, if you have to suddenly push/project your body in a new direction in that transition, it reflects inaccurate or insufficient movement throughout the turn! For fluidly linked turns, you should NOT have to make a sudden, muscular movement to direct your body into the new turn!

Sorry for the confusion. Hope I didn't just make it worse!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

[ October 02, 2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Bob Barnes/Colorado ]
post #4 of 8
...in my best turns, max pressure seems to be applied during the fall line part of the arc, with a little less through the transition.
This seems to me to be another hallmark of expert skiing, enabling release without stopping (and then releasing).
post #5 of 8
Thread Starter 
These are great discussions that really clarify, for me, the previous discussions in the fluidity thread. Thanks to all.
post #6 of 8
Wasn't there some discussion a few years ago in PSIA (I know there was some in the Central division) about describing turns from fall line to fall line alignments instead of from traverse to traverse alignments to make the ideas of flow and continuous movement more clear?

Edit Note: I should have read the later postings to the fluidity thread before throwing this out, I guess. Weems describes this thought really well there.

[ October 03, 2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Kneale Brownson ]
post #7 of 8

There has been even more on this here at Epic check this out.

Where does it all begin???


[ October 03, 2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Ydnar ]
post #8 of 8
Thanks for digging up that thread, Yd. There isn't much we HAVEN'T discussed here, at some point, is there? That thread has a lot of information that is highly relevant to this topic!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
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