Originally Posted by dmoney24
No worries, I wasn't too offended, just clarifying what is driving the question.
I spoke to his coach at length last night (and Saturday), and he really believes in setting his gs skis at .5/3 (like last year) and 0/3 for slalom. He's convinced that he's always on his edges in slalom, and the grippier slalom ski will make him trust the ski more. so he's already done it to the skis. The strange thing is that he said he didn't stone grind the skis (so not sure how he set them, unless they came flat).
I ve stayed out of this up until now. But i feel compelled to respond.
Both my sons raced for 11 years or so begining when they were 7 and 10.
A bit of background, for credibility and experience sake. (No ego meant
, just facts)
Both made the Buddy Werner Team as J4's and my older boy went on to be a Junior Olympics Level racer as a J3, J2 and J1. Younger son made Jo's as a 2nd year J3. Older son had top ten and top 15 finishes at Western region JO's snow King in Sg and Gs respectively and was No 1 finisher in Sg for PNSA and #2 for PNSa in Gs. All of their race ski (SL, GS SG & DH) through there entire careers were tuned 1/3. Older son also won multiple training runs in Downhill as a J1 and was leading those races when he missed a gate. I tuned all of their skis. they were both sponsored by Atomic as Juniors but skied Volkl when they first began racing.
IMHO No junior racer certainly should be on a -0- degree base bevel and I am extremely skeptical of a .5 for slalom for a 10 year old.
Base bevel has little or no effect on edge grip. That is what an acute side edge angle does. What very little or no base bevel does is make any kind of progressive edging very difficult or non-existent. the skier is either fully on fully off edge. Transitions are very abrupt and the skis wnat to stay off edge when off edge and want to stay on edge when and if you can get them there
Even World Cup racers complained about the Beta construction of Atomic skis as being either on edge or off edge and were difficult to ski progressively. Consequently Atomic switched the construction of some of the racers WC skis to more classic laminate construction which the racers felt they could "feather" in and out of turns and ski with more touch instead of being hard on or hard off edge.
I also think you should read this :
Graham Lonetto, owner of Edgewise Elite Service in Stowe, VT & former WC women’s technician, has studied the interplay between base bevel, slope pitch, and time through a GS training course. "One of my athletes was skiing fast on steep pitches but loosing time on the flats, so we did quite a bit of testing with base bevel. We found that increasing the base bevel allowed the athlete to be less harsh on her edges. This allowed the athlete to let the skis run downhill rather than across the pitch, drawing out the turn" says Lonetto. The testing consisted of equally prepared GS skis and considered angles of one half, three quarters, and one degree of base bevel of the athlete’s GS skis. This leads us to the statement that base bevel is the "heart & soul" of the ski. Small changes in the bevel contribute drastically to the skis on snow feel, performance, and ski-ability.
(Bold Underline added)
Do you ever wonder what you can do to gain an extra tenth or two on your competitors? If you are on F.I.S. regulation skis, chances are that your closest competitors are on very similar equipment. (It is important to remember that masters racing is not limited by the F.I.S. rules regarding the side-cut of skis, so for many competitors, certain models of production skis are a great choice.) The F.I.S. has limited the side-cut of race stock GS skis to 22m, effectively limiting design variation among manufacturers. In a nutshell, all of the ski companies are producing the shortest ski with the side-cut that will conform to the F.I.S. regulation. The same holds true for plates. Despite the infinite variations in design, the technology is basically the same. The end result provides leverage and dampening qualities.
With equipment so similar for all competitors, what can you do to find the advantage that will put you on the podium? As a tech for the U.S. Ski Team, it was my job to find those fractions for my athlete. Our tests showed that one of the most effective ways to create a faster ski is to modify the base bevel.
Base bevel is the angle of the base edge relative to the base material. It is the heart and soul of the ski. The smaller the angle, the more reactive and more demanding the ski becomes. More angle produces a smoother, less responsive ski. (Note: there is a point at which more bevel becomes too much and can cause the ski to become sluggish.)
We tested three identical models of skis prepared with the same grind. The only variable was the base bevel. We tested the skis on a run that had a steep, a medium and a flat pitch. The results are shown below.
Steep pitch, Medium pitch Flat pitch.5 degree angle16.19
(19.93)(20.56).75 degree angle
(20.21)1.0 degree angle
The table shows that the .5-degree was the fastest on the steep pitch, the .75-degree was the fastest on the medium pitch and the 1-degree performed the best on the flats. The .5-degree base bevel is the most reactive, so on steep pitches, this ski comes around much faster. The higher angle of the 1degree bevel allowed that ski to perform the best on the flats because it draws out and lengthens turns by smoothly rolling into them without the abrupt edging characteristics of a less beveled ski. As you might expect, the ski with the .75-degree bevel performed the best on the medium grade slope. It is neither too reactive nor too slow to react--perfect for a medium pitch. You can see that it is important to choose the base bevel according to the terrain you may encounter on a regular basis and your abilities as a skier. For example, if you often ski steep pitches and you are looking to improve your time on the steeps, you may want to try decreasing the base bevel on your skis.
Keep in mind this was done with a very high level FIS racer not a 10 year old.
If you are not concerned about winning, is -0- and .5 base bevels going to help your son to build a solid foundation of technique for the future?
I have to be honest with you. I was around an awful lot of "Little League" racer parents, talking of their 6-10 year olds like the were competing for a World Cup globe.
i am really attempting to not be disrespectful here, but if you had been asking me about 0 or .5 degree base bevels on your 10 year olds ski, on the hill when we were racing I would have openly laughed in your face!
By the way I also coached a bunch of youth baseball! From 7 to 18 year olds and umpired alot. I went up to 14 year olds with my older son and then wnet back down to simultaneoulsy coach my younger one who was 10. you can't beleive my differnt perspective on 10 year old baseball the 2nd time through after having coached at the 14-15 year old level.
My suggestion is you just et your kid 1st and foremost have fun, and take it for what it is. 10 year old ski racing. Keep him excited about the sport and improving. all this talk about base bevels and gear goobly-gook at that age just creates more anxiety.
it takes alot of balls even for a 10 year old to get in the start gate and put their score up in public to be judged by anyone and everyone. you should be trying to reduce the anxiety not add to it.
Make your life simple. put a true 1 degree base bevel and a 3 side edge on both his skis and call it a day!!!!
I get roasted of all the time on this forum for talking about and the difference between a .5 and a .7 degree base bevel and I have been skiing for 45 years and my boys raced successfully. I am extremely particular about the tune of my own skis.
Bottom line is I truly hope my post helps you in some way even though it may seem harsh in places. I wish you and your son the best of luck. Enjoy every moment of the ski racing experience. The travel, the gear, tuning, the stroms and the long drives were intoxicating! it was the best years of our lives. My boys are now soon to be 23 and soon to be 20. It goes by way too fast!