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When to set toe and heel to a different DIN?

post #1 of 55
Thread Starter 
When, if ever, is it recommended to set your heel and toe DINs to a different value? Anyone here practice this?
post #2 of 55

DIN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
When, if ever, is it recommended to set your heel and toe DINs to a different value? Anyone here practice this?
1. You are having premature releases more than you should. Then assuming your DIN was set by a shop and/or by your ability, weight, age then I would go up 1/2 # at a time. When you don't realease all the time you are probably right on. I check my binding release function and DIN by; getting in my skis on the carpet at home. Have someone stand on the tail, lunge forcefully forward, you should come out not to easy and not without tearing your knee up. On hint is KEEP YOUR KNEE BENT, don't do this with a straight leg. Then have someone stand on the front of your ski and twist our left or rightl. Should b e a pretty firm release not to easy.

2. You are running a DIN to keep your ACL intact and release when you take a good fall, maybe one ski maybe both but don't have premature releases. NOW you are Dropping Off into corbets couloir, you just might want to dial them up a # to prevent a release when you hit. Losing your skis when you hit on this drop in can be injurious to your health.

I know there are some people here that crank them up but I would rather lose a ski and fall that blow out a knee. The only time this didn't work was about 15 yrs ago on a Super G course, making a left turn at about 45-50 on ice and I saw a ski by itself going by me at high speed while I was racing. It was my right ski and about the time I realized that I was Down and sliding. Slid quite aways that day.
post #3 of 55
I don't have the charts in front of me, but there are a few cases where the toe and heel are indeed set different.
post #4 of 55
It would not be that unusual to have a Marker toe set 1-2 DIN higher than the heels....if you have to ask why than this is probably not necessary for the type of skiing you are doing.
post #5 of 55
I have my Marker heels set 2 steps higher than my toes because I like "spearing" moguls.
post #6 of 55
I set my new BlizzErd/Marker toes +1 over the heels, which are +1.5 over my suggested din. .
post #7 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
When, if ever, is it recommended to set your heel and toe DINs to a different value? Anyone here practice this?
My dukes are slightly higher in the heel than the toe. My PXs and Tyrolias are the same all around.

My best word of advice is you can crank them as high you want, as long you can muscle your way out of them while standing still.

On biotec markers with forward pressure set right accord in to the shop. Cranking the toe to 14 it would still prerelease on compressions, and yet in normal falls I had some really scary moments in slower falls.
post #8 of 55
I have my heels 2-3 higher than the toes. I never pre-release the toes, but still blow the heels in drifted powder or the unseen ditch from time to time.
post #9 of 55
3 really important points that need to be made:

1. Releasing the binding statically using your lower leg and knee as the "tool" is an open invitation to visit your surgeon. This was a practice in the 60's and 70's, long before shop practices for bindings became standardized. It was and is proven to be a useless practice, relating to nothing of the bindings ability to keep you in or let you out.

2. Ski bindings cannot and never have had the ability to protect the soft tissue in the knee. They can only sense loads that are transmitted through the skeletal structure, to the boot sole, into the binding. The knee is normally injured long before the boot sole and binding have a conversation about a fall taking place. In other words modern bindings have no clue that the knee is feeling force that is possibly going to injure it. If you believe that it does, I have some spectacular swamp land in Florida that you should look into buying.

3. Your skiing dictates whether you need more or less DIN overall or in the toe vs the heel. So there was only a touch of correctness in pete no idaho's statements, which was if you are consistently pre-releasing from either the toe or heel, slowly increase the DIN until you stop pre-releasing. There is a caveat to this method, which is increasing the DIN on your binding increases the chance of injury to the lower leg.

As a skier you need to decide whether it is better to come out pre-maturely or have higher DINs to prevent pre-mature release. There is no correct answer here, only a personal judgement call.

jim
post #10 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
3 really important points that need to be made:

1. Releasing the binding statically using your lower leg and knee as the "tool" is an open invitation to visit your surgeon. This was a practice in the 60's and 70's, long before shop practices for bindings became standardized. It was and is proven to be a useless practice, relating to nothing of the bindings ability to keep you in or let you out.

2. Ski bindings cannot and never have had the ability to protect the soft tissue in the knee. They can only sense loads that are transmitted through the skeletal structure, to the boot sole, into the binding. The knee is normally injured long before the boot sole and binding have a conversation about a fall taking place. In other words modern bindings have no clue that the knee is feeling force that is possibly going to injure it. If you believe that it does, I have some spectacular swamp land in Florida that you should look into buying.

3. Your skiing dictates whether you need more or less DIN overall or in the toe vs the heel. So there was only a touch of correctness in pete no idaho's statements, which was if you are consistently pre-releasing from either the toe or heel, slowly increase the DIN until you stop pre-releasing. There is a caveat to this method, which is increasing the DIN on your binding increases the chance of injury to the lower leg.

As a skier you need to decide whether it is better to come out pre-maturely or have higher DINs to prevent pre-mature release. There is no correct answer here, only a personal judgement call.

jim
I have heard SO much misinformation spewed about this very topic on here....

Jim, that was probably the best post on the subject I've seen. Thanks.
post #11 of 55
What about binding tolerance issues?

I remember having a binding years ago (albeit a Marker, so there may be more going on here) that a local shop recommended .5 higher in the toe on one ski, in order to have it release at the same amount of tension as the other ski. I believe they said it had to do with the spring weakening up.

It seems to me that if bindings are being released checked properly, this could be something that comes up fairly regularly, especially on older bindings. I mean what is the point of testing them if you are going to blindly follow the DIN ratings on the bindings themselves, not what the glorified torque wrench is telling you?
post #12 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
I have heard SO much misinformation spewed about this very topic on here....

Jim, that was probably the best post on the subject I've seen. Thanks.
*2!
post #13 of 55
Dumpy,

I do not think that was the intent of the OP.

What you described is exactly the reason for a binding release check. It helps to quantify the range that each component is releasing at. It is SOP to recalibrate any component that is not releasing in the required range.

This has nothing to do with raising a toe or heel settings to accomadate for skiing style and the reality of the binding setting needed versus what the DIN chart reccommends.
post #14 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
2. Ski bindings cannot and never have had the ability to protect the soft tissue in the knee. They can only sense loads that are transmitted through the skeletal structure, to the boot sole, into the binding. The knee is normally injured long before the boot sole and binding have a conversation about a fall taking place.
Two qualifications here: 1) True in a literal sense, but binding design (attempts to) allow for this by engineering release loads well below bone shear, down in range where ligaments and cartilage are damaged. Obviously inexact and inefficient. 2) True for pristine knees with pristine ligaments that are constantly load bearing. Probably not true for knees with pre-existing soft tissue injuries, "healed" or not, where ligaments have a reduced stabilizing role at normal ranges of motion. Lot of research on this issue vis-a-vis braces, incidentally. Useless for prevention, good to prevent re-injury. And I'd guess a third the people on this forum have some degree of permanent knee injury, whether they know it or not. (You think not? Check back in 20 years when your osteo is well along...)
post #15 of 55
I've had more problems with Salomon heels than toes especially when skiing crud and heavy powder. When I had Salomons on skis I use in those conditions I always cranked the heel up 1/2 to 1 DIN higher than the toes.
post #16 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Two qualifications here: 1) True in a literal sense, but binding design (attempts to) allow for this by engineering release loads well below bone shear, down in range where ligaments and cartilage are damaged. Obviously inexact and inefficient. 2) True for pristine knees with pristine ligaments that are constantly load bearing. Probably not true for knees with pre-existing soft tissue injuries, "healed" or not, where ligaments have a reduced stabilizing role at normal ranges of motion. Lot of research on this issue vis-a-vis braces, incidentally. Useless for prevention, good to prevent re-injury. And I'd guess a third the people on this forum have some degree of permanent knee injury, whether they know it or not. (You think not? Check back in 20 years when your osteo is well along...)
I don't know what you're trying to say, but what Starthaus said is that a binding's release setting is not to protect your knee from ligament damage. Release settings are set to release before there is enough torque to break your lower leg.
If your ligament is put in a dangerous position, healthy or not, it will tear way before the binding ever feels enough torque to release.
post #17 of 55
I agree with 99% of what Starthaus stated.

the part i take issue with is turning up your DIN without really understanding whay your not staying in your binding.

I have posted this before and believe it is excellent information to take to heart before blindly getting the screwdriver out.

http://www.vermontskisafety.com/vsrfaq8.php
post #18 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

I have posted this before and believe it is excellent information to take to heart before blindly getting the screwdriver out.

http://www.vermontskisafety.com/vsrfaq8.php
I've read that before and I disagree with a lot of it.

A-man.... Your kids race (or raced) at a fairly high level, right? Do they ski at the recommended DIN? If not, why? If vermont ski safety is right, and "All research efforts to date show that the magnitude of the load a skier applies to a modern binding toe piece decreases with speed (even during competition)" then they just need to correct "software" (poor technique) issues.

Also, if what they say is true, and the load a skier puts on bindings is decreased at speed, then world cup downhillers would be able to get away with very low settings. Plus, they presumably have pretty solid technique, so they wouldn't have as many "software" problems.

Do you think there is even one World Cupper with his bindings set UNDER 20? Yet they do release when they crash. I've seen it many times. Why is that? According to Vermont, it isn't the speed....???

There is some good info in there, but I take a lot of it with a grain of salt. They want to sell their binding testing equipment.
post #19 of 55
1.)I think its funny you say that up racer seeing as almost all of the major ski manufactures recommend that you take a vermont ski saftey course in order to be able to legally work on their skis/bindings. You must take a test at the end of the course and if you pass you are certified for all manufactures that accept vermont ski saftey.
2.) it is no longer called the din, i know i know all the manufactures still list it as din on there spec sheets. Originally din stood for Deutsche Industrie Norm or German industry norm, if i remeber correctly that group no longer exist and it is now referred to as the indicator setting. Because you can see it through the indicator window and it sets what is generally a spring inside the binding that regulates how many newton meters it takes to get the binding to release. Why does the ski binding industry still refer to it as din who knows.
3.)The most common reason you would have a different indicator setting for the toe and heel would be because when doing a toe or heel release test with a properly calibrated vermont ski safety fake foot, thigh, and torque meter the reading you got on your torque meter was outside the in use range that is specified on the skier code chart if it still is with in the range that is referred to as the adjustable range then you can turn it up, in order to make the binding release at a higher newton meter reading, or turn it down, to make the binding realease at a lower newton meter reading.
4.) The manufacture of the binding is the one that suggest the intial indicator setting based on your weight, height, skier ability, and boot sole length.
5.) If you are renting skis or have had your skis set up from certified ski shop then you probably should never adjust your own bindings, because then when you get hurt it is your own fault. Not the shops not the manufacture. You can no longer blame the company for selling a binding that is not properly working, because you adjusted it to something that might be outside the manufactures suggested indicator setting.
6.) Lastly all binding manufactures now that there is a certain percentage of bindings that come straight from the factory that are not going to release at the proper torque range when set at the suggested indicator setting. That is why they require that the ski shop only allow a certified mechanic to mount the bindings and they must properly set the forward pressure, as well as always do a toe and heel release test on any new binding that is mounted to a customers skis, and then adjust the setting if need be.
post #20 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
I've read that before and I disagree with a lot of it.

A-man.... Your kids race (or raced) at a fairly high level, right? Do they ski at the recommended DIN?

If not, why? If vermont ski safety is right, and "All research efforts to date show that the magnitude of the load a skier applies to a modern binding toe piece decreases with speed (even during competition)" then they just need to correct "software" (poor technique) issues.
Do you think there is even one World Cupper with his bindings set UNDER 20?

Yet they do release when they crash. I've seen it many times. Why is that? According to Vermont, it isn't the speed....???


There is some good info in there, but I take a lot of it with a grain of salt. They want to sell their binding testing equipment.
A-man.... Your kids race (or raced) at a fairly high level, right? Do they ski at the recommended DIN?

They currently ski at their recommended Settings maybe 1/2 number over

If not, why? If vermont ski safety is right, and "All research efforts to date show that the magnitude of the load a skier applies to a modern binding toe piece decreases with speed (even during competition)" then they just need to correct "software" (poor technique) issues.


Do you think there is even one World Cupper with his bindings set UNDER 20?

As for Atomic. they ski on the exact same 10.18 bindings that you and I can buy and that we own (quite few pair) I have spoken with the Eastern Race Rep. who used to post on here as LOGRUVE and the World cuppers ski on about 16 (That binding only goes to 18 and the DHers and the Tech guys all use the same binding.)

Don't know about any other brands.


Yet they do release when they crash. I've seen it many times. Why is that? According to Vermont, it isn't the speed....???

They don't pre-release very often though. And many times the ski don't come off until they have cart wheeled and maybe spun around and hit in awkward postion a couple of times. Many times one ski does not even come off! But truly how many times does a World Cupper just lose a ski to a pre-release?

I know some people who are lighter then me and ski slower and just seem to have constant pre-release problems.

I almost never come out of my bindings. In fact I can't remember 1 time in the last 5 years I have pre-released

In fact I can only remember 1 time ( last season) in the late spring in crappy snow that i released at all.

Some folks get very light on their outsde ski at just the wrong point in the turn and the ski is bouncing around without the weight oon it. They could have their DIN on 50 and it would still pre-release.

if you ski in balance and smoothly and your weight distribution is reasonably constant. No problemo!

I have skied on Marker and Atomic more then any other binding over the last 30 years. never had pre-release problems and never cranked my DIN way high either.


All i said was before you get out the screwdriver and start cranking, cranking cranking, consider these other issues.

You don't think that is a prudent suggestion?

By the way, every study and recommendation out there is not an evil plot to sell product. where were you during the mortgage meltdown. You could have saved us all!
post #21 of 55
It was my understanding that the Atomic Neox is actually tested and the release scale is laser inscribed based on the actual release settings.

Don't know if this is just marketing hype or true!
post #22 of 55
atomicman so what your are saying is that just because you have a pre-release doesn't mean that you need to go cranking away because the manufacture suggested setting is to low for your style skiing it could be because of your weight distribution and so on(makes sense to me) oh an just because a manufacture says all this stuff about the binding is better for your knee doesn't mean it is true there is no study that shows that one binding helps prevent knee injuries more than another
post #23 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by northwestnumber1 View Post
atomicman so what your are saying is that just because you have a pre-release doesn't mean that you need to go cranking away because the manufacture suggested setting is to low for your style skiing it could be because of your weight distribution and so on(makes sense to me) oh an just because a manufacture says all this stuff about the binding is better for your knee doesn't mean it is true there is no study that shows that one binding helps prevent knee injuries more than another
Yes , I just think you should cosider other causes before you just crank up the indicator setting (See, i'm a fast learner)

How may times have we seen folks post on here that say they turned their indicators way up and still come out?
post #24 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Two qualifications here: 1) True in a literal sense, but binding design (attempts to) allow for this by engineering release loads well below bone shear, down in range where ligaments and cartilage are damaged.
Excellent points, I'd just add that not all bindings are mechanically equivalent, and the forces on ligaments in common injury scenarios do vary to some degree while bindings of different designs are set to release at equivalent torques. But this is a minor quibble of little use to the public, and what Jim said bears frequent repeating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
I've read that before and I disagree with a lot of it.
Have you actually read any of the ski safety literature?

On the one hand, we have the opinion of a company that provides most of the ski binding testing machines in the country, a company well recognized for it's authority on the issues of ski safety and training wrt bindings, a company whose founder has been researching ski safety for more than three decades and whose name is frequently found in said literature.

On the other hand, we've got your opinion.
Quote:
Do you think there is even one World Cupper with his bindings set UNDER 20?
Yes. Simple answer to a simple question. A quick google revealed research published at the ISSS that showed a mean increase over the ISO suggested value of 92 percent for WC freestylers. Not sure anything is harder on bindings than high level bump skiing...and that mean would put me at ~16.
Quote:
They want to sell their binding testing equipment.
This is demonstrated ignorance. Shops in the US buy and calibrate binding testing equipment as a condition of indemnification. There is nothing in the linked article that has anything to do with ski binding test equipment. Further, it is addressed at the non professional user rather directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by starthaus View Post
3 really important points that need to be made:
...
jim
Great post Jim. I'm bookmarking the post link and I figure I'll probably post that link a dozen times this winter.
post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by northwestnumber1 View Post
almost all of the major ski manufactures recommend that you take a vermont ski saftey course in order to be able to legally work on their skis/bindings. You must take a test at the end of the course and if you pass you are certified for all manufactures that accept vermont ski saftey.
Of course they do. Vermont ski safety is the only show in town.... Manufacturers and shops have to cover their bases from a liability stand-point. Obviously, it is in everyone's best interest to err on the side of low "indicator" setting rather than high.

All I'm saying is, sometimes the answer actually is to dial 'em up a bit!
post #26 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
On the one hand, we have the opinion of a company that provides most of the ski binding testing machines in the country, a company well recognized for it's authority on the issues of ski safety and training wrt bindings, a company whose founder has been researching ski safety for more than three decades and whose name is frequently found in said literature.
Is there anyone else out there? Test stand results often vary from real world experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
A quick google revealed research published at the ISSS that showed a mean increase over the ISO suggested value of 92 percent for WC freestylers. Not sure anything is harder on bindings than high level bump skiing...and that mean would put me at ~16.
Why would you have to set your bindings 92% higher than recommended? Vermont ski safety testing has shown that cranking up the setting doesn't help, right? According to them, increased speed doesn't equal increased forces on the binding... In the bumps, a pre-release is probably due to excessive flex, something that won't be fixed by turning up the setting.... supposedly...

So why is it that racers and WC Freestylers set their bindings so high? (by the way, the "20" figure was an exaggeration)

Again, I'm not advocating that everyone run high settings, but to blame every pre-release on a technique flaw, then point to VSS as a reference is ridiculous.
post #27 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Vermont ski safety is the only show in town
Wrong. I've personally used test hardware from three manufacturers.

As to who else is researching ski safety, I suggest you ask a librarian to look up "ISSS".
Quote:
All I'm saying is, sometimes the answer actually is to dial 'em up a bit!
Of course. You are stating the obvious.

There is nothing wrong with sharing your opinion, but ski bindings are an important safety tool, have actually been subjected to real research, and have consequences of use/abuse fully understood by a very small portion of the public. The consequences of lousy advice on this topic are much greater than for "where should I mount my Gotamas?" and what not.

I'm not big on appeals to authority in general, but in this case I make an exception. I trust the educated opinion of VSS vastly more than some guy whose anecdotal experience is apparently mostly limited to the consumer end of the spectrum.
post #28 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Is there anyone else out there? Test stand results often vary from real world experiences.


Why would you have to set your bindings 92% higher than recommended? Vermont ski safety testing has shown that cranking up the setting doesn't help, right? According to them, increased speed doesn't equal increased forces on the binding... In the bumps, a pre-release is probably due to excessive flex, something that won't be fixed by turning up the setting.... supposedly...

So why is it that racers and WC Freestylers set their bindings so high? (by the way, the "20" figure was an exaggeration)

Again, I'm not advocating that everyone run high settings, but to blame every pre-release on a technique flaw, then point to VSS as a reference is ridiculous.
U.P. No one is saying you're a lousy skier. And no one was saying you should absolutely never crank up your settings and that the DIN chart is absolute!!!

And if VSS is the only game in town (which apparantly it is not) why would a monopoly be writing articles to sell more equipment.

Plus the article was for the average guy on the hill it seemed like.

There are other reasons as evidenced by the VSR article that are hardware related rather then software related that cause pre-release which increasing release settings do not address. Also, skier perception defines many pre-releases. As noted by VSR maybe they are not pre-releases at all!

Crankng up the bindings maybe should be the last link in the chain not the first! But most of the time a skiers binding comes off when they "ASSUME" it should not have and out comes the screwdriver.

Racers (not because of the speed but because of the dictated path of the skier) are dealing with different forces. Rutted up courses with chatter marks that a freeskier could avoid or come to neutral over to lessen the effect, racers have to directly ski inot or through to make that next gate. They have to ski right in the thick of a rut or chatter marks. Also if you are not on edge in those chatter marks and are skidding, there is a good chance your ski will just get knocked right off of your foot. that happens and the first thing a junior racers does is crank up the bindings!

So can we agree that different forces not necessarily speed related cause a different set of stresses on racers and their equipment. there are definetly situations in a race course where no binding would stay in place. Also when you are out of sync in a course you are way out of balance and this can also cause pre-release that is unavoidable. Your just not standing on your skis when and where you should be. Again not speed related.
post #29 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
U.P. No one is saying you're a lousy skier. And if VSS is the only game in town (which apparantly it is not0 why would a monopoly be writing articles to sell more equipment.

Plus the article was for the average guy on the hill it seemed like.

There are other reasons as evidenced by the VSR article that are hardware related rather then software related that cause pre-release which increasing release settings do not address. Also, skier perception defines many pre-releases. As noted by VSR maybe they are not pre-releases at all!

Crankng up the bindings maybe should be the last link in the chain not the first! But most of the time a skiers binding comes off when they "ASSUME" it should not have and out comes the screwdriver.

Racers (not because of the speed but because of the dictated path of the skier) are dealing with different forces. Rutted up courses with chatter marks that a freeskier could avoid or come to neutral over to lessen the effect, but racers have to make that next gate. they have to ski right in the thick of a rut or chatter marks. Also if you are not on edge in those chatter marks and are skidding, there is a good chance your ski will just get knocked right off of your foot.

So can we agree that different forces not necessarily speed related cause a different set of stresses on racers and their equipment. there are definetly situations in a race course where no binding would stay in place. Also when you are out of sync in a course you are way out of balance and this can also cause pre-release that is unavoidable. Your just not standing on your skis when and where you should be. Again not speed related.
Fair enough. That makes sense.
post #30 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Fair enough. That makes sense.
Awesome
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