EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Another Level III Cert question
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Another Level III Cert question

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
When skis chatter in control or finish of turn, what is the problemt o be corrected?
post #2 of 20
Chatter is the result of using too much edge too soon. Try to be lighter on your edges, and work up to higher edge angles later in the turn, instead of trying to grab all the edge at once. It takes some mileage to develop a feel for how much pressure and edge you can use without causing chatter. Try skiing firm snow with relaxed feet and loose ankles. Let your ankles move to absorb whatever is going on under your feet. Focus on whatever you need to do to avoid chatter. Gradually you should develop a better feel for what you need to do.
If you try that, let me know how it works for you.

John

[ January 20, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: John Dowling ]
post #3 of 20
I would just like to add to what John Dowling is in essence saying. Chatter is usually the result of a late edge and poor turn shape. That is the edge angle is to high in the second half of the turn and the pressure cannot be controlled. Chatter is usually accompanied by a short control phase and static finish.

Correct by choosing more appropriate terrain, introducing patience at turn initiation, reducing the speed of the turns with turn shape and reducing the dynamics involved. As John says, this also reduces the edge angles involved. You can also work on early center of mass movements and early edge engagements.
post #4 of 20
Even though Pierre and I seem to be saying opposite things, we are really on the same page. Chatter is usually just too much edge, and usually that is the result of rushing to get on edge. That rushing also causes the poor turn shape that Pierre referred to, although you will sometimes get some chatter even with pretty good turn shape. You need to develop patience and feel for your edges. Edge engagement needs to be early and progressive.

John
post #5 of 20
John; from earlier posts by you I knew we were on the same page. I just clarified things a bit.

[ January 20, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by artist:
When skis chatter in control or finish of turn, what is the problemt o be corrected?
While the answers you have been given are technically correct maybe we need to take it a little further and ask what is the "chatter" you are seeing or feeling in the ski(s). If the “chatter” were more of a quick unstable oscillation of the ski(s) then I would say stance is more of a problem than an early over powering edge. You can see this oscillation occur readily if you ski on a very short ski 120-140 CM like the skis Élan introduced for teaching. (I often wondered if I had to be critical on the ski to find the sweet how a new skier would find the sweet?) The only reason I bring this into play is on softer snow condition an early build of edge/pressure will normally only cause a hook turn. In the case of Pierre and the Midwest it would truly be a different story entirely. Over build too early and you will readily find real chatter! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #7 of 20
Learner, when you say stance may be more of a problem with an ocsillating chatter and mention short skis, do you mean more of a narrow/banking problem or more of a fore/aft problem? Perhaps we should clarify that. I'm not sure what you mean by oscillating chatter. Wobbly tips?

[ January 20, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Pierre ]
post #8 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by artist:
When skis chatter in control or finish of turn, what is the problem to be corrected?
I would suggest that the chatter is lateral pressure over powering the skis edge grip. The ski releases sideways, re-grips, releases, etc, etc. Too much edge to quickly plus a lot of pivot or tail displacement that is used to attempt to redirect CM from across the slope into the falline can induce chatter. A stiff outside leg that cannot regulate pressure can contribute to the problem once it starts.

The net of the problem is to much pressure applied across the skis.
I'd suggest releasing your CM more diagonally through edge change and toward the falline so that it's flow is more in direction of skis travel (along length vs across their length) as you are engaging your edges.

Moose Barrows, of U.S. Ski Team back in '70's, when asked how he controlled chattering? He replied: "Don't start".

post #9 of 20
Artist,
The simple answer is lack of good edge and pressure control. But it isn't really that simple because chatter can result from a number of edge control sins.

1) John points out a very common one. Sometimes people are unconfident in their competence to establish a good edge hold on ice so they hammer onto a high edge immediately at the start of the turn in a desperate attempt to make the edge bite. No way their skis can handle the sudden application of forces. Chatter.

2) Pierre points out another good one, turn shape. A carve is not established and degree of edge developed early in the turn, leaving to much change of direction to be done at the end of the turn. This requires applying a sudden high edge during the completion phase of the turn, a time in which gravity becomes an additional force that works against us ( it begins to work in tandem with centrifugal force). This is not a time you want to be horsing on your edge. Chatter.

3) I can add a couple more. Arc to arc turns are much easier to ski cleanly with no chatter than begining a turn with a steer or pivot. If you do a steer or pivot redirection of your skis at the beginning of your turn you will then be attempting to establish a carve on a ski that is pointing in a diretion other than that of which it is actually moving. This is a very difficult thing to do on ice and initial chatter is guarenteed, the amount dependant on skill level.

4) Also, how refined are the skiers carves. Soft snow will hide a million sins, and a carve track that contains a little wash will not affect the skiers belief that he is a carving wizard because he feels just great. But put that same skier on ice and that small degree of steering he was doing in soft snow now betrays him. That steering is enough to deflect the ski out of the optimal rail track carve and start it sliding, and when the skier feels the slide start he hammers the edge to stop it and quess what: chatter.

5) Finally 2 more possible contributing factors. Tuning (edge burrs can cause a slide and catch form of chatter) and quality of equipment. Some skis are great on ice and hold like your riding a rail, some just plain and simple suck!! :
post #10 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Learner, when you say stance may be more of a problem with an ocsillating chatter and mention short skis, do you mean more of a narrow/banking problem or more of a fore/aft problem? Perhaps we should clarify that. I'm not sure what you mean by oscillating chatter. Wobbly tips?
Good question Mr. French. I tried a pair of 164 CM skis last Sunday and I noticed, just like my little Élans, if I didn’t really dial in the sweet spot, the sweet spot seemed to move forward/aft and the skis seemed to float a little or oscillate but not so much in the tip like my little play things but they just didn’t "stand" solid if you know what I mean. Once I dialed the ski in it was a good ski but I then decided Nah too short for me at 6’. (Now Mr. Pierre this was your turn to ask the question you already knew the answer to eh?) :

I believe this could be a future problem skiers/instructors are going to experience. We keep taking the skis shorter and shorter not realizing what we may be giving up in true performance. Now I understand the tortional rigidity has been improved and all that other good stuff. However can the recreational skier handle it? Sure we can throw them there skis around but alas we may find stability and even universal use of the skis may go out the window. Heck I may even go back to hop turns down the mountain. NAH!

So if this is truly a Level III inquiry I would only suggest don’t dig the hole too deep in technicality but ask the obvious before answering. After all technicality in a Level III can be a deep hole and then you might as well pull the mound of dirt right on over you! Eh! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by artist:
When skis chatter in control or finish of turn, what is the problemt o be corrected?
Ski with both feet around the entire turn. Is it chatter or skid from "camping" in the turn after initiation? [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #12 of 20
Yah know Learner, funny you should mention the stability thing. I have been on the 184cm 10Ex telemark skis lately getting ready for Utah. With telemark gear I am denied the use of any forward leverage in applying rotary torque to the little toe side of the inside ski. On top of that the skis are wide without much sidecut. The result is a flatter more steered inside ski and a little less counter.
Thats all fine and dandy until I jump on my pair of alpine 167cm Rossi T powers to ski with my daugther. What I notice right away is that I don't counter enough and oversteer the inside ski to the point of breaking the outside ski loose at the top of the turn. The result is hunting fore and aft to get back over the sweet spot on the outside ski. I usually do a few pivot slips to dial in on the skis then some tracer turns and I am good to go.
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by Pierre:
Yah know Learner, funny you should mention the stability thing. I have been on the 184cm 10Ex telemark skis lately getting ready for Utah. With telemark gear I am denied the use of any forward leverage in applying rotary torque to the little toe side of the inside ski. On top of that the skis are wide without much sidecut. The result is a flatter more steered inside ski and a little less counter.
Thats all fine and dandy until I jump on my pair of alpine 167cm Rossi T powers to ski with my daugther. What I notice right away is that I don't counter enough and oversteer the inside ski to the point of breaking the outside ski loose at the top of the turn. The result is hunting fore and aft to get back over the sweet spot on the outside ski. I usually do a few pivot slips to dial in on the skis then some tracer turns and I am good to go.
What I find is I get "lazy" moving to the inside of the turn and light on the outside ski. Maybe what happens to you really is what happens to me. I will check it out tomorrow night. I still believe the 164's are just a little short for my frame. However I tried another 164 the other day, name withheld on purpose, and only felt they were a little too soft. I like a fairly "strong" feel. I will probably order a pair of those skis next year in a 173 or so. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
post #14 of 20
Yah Learner, I think you are right. My outside ski sometimes comes off the snow. When that happens you know you're lazy and have to be banking a bit.
post #15 of 20
A thought occurred to me while reading this thread.

Skid is just a very refined form of chatter, the grab-release mechanism happens at a very high frequency and the distance between the grabs is very short.

This make sense or am I too far out of the box on this one.

Yd
post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally posted by Ydnar:
A thought occurred to me while reading this thread.

Skid is just a very refined form of chatter, the grab-release mechanism happens at a very high frequency and the distance between the grabs is very short.

This make sense or am I too far out of the box on this one.

Yd
Skidding is generally cause by too little edge, while chatter comes from too much edge (although there probably is a very high frequency grab/release thing going on with skidding). The optimum is somewhere in between, less edge is faster, more edge is more secure.
Since you are from Utah, I'd say that's about as far outside the box as you can get as far as chatter is concerned. Come ski in the East to really live the chatter experience. :

John
post #17 of 20
John,

Chatter is indeed usually associated with high edge angles but the other important ingredient is pressure. Too much pressure for the edge to hold could be one way of saying why chatter occurs. From this I could make the argument that skid is just too much pressure for the edge to hold even though both the pressure and the edge angle might be very small.

I usually can't even see the box from where I end up standing

On the eastern slope of the Wasatch we often get to ski on hard snow but never on the transparent packed powder you get in the East and Midwest.

Yd
post #18 of 20
"transparent packed powder"

ahhhh...now there's a term!
This year in the east there has been true "packed powder" for much of the season. No need to lie. What's amazing is you still can't escape the ice.

Last week at Stowe I experienced "unedgeable" ice. At the top of National some forty feet of it. Not the transparent type though. First guy goes down side, explodes, ski goes flying half way down. The examiner went down before me and slid down(very balanced though) most of it to the softer stuff. Stupidly I thought "this can't be that bad" and started down. I attempted to set an edge, not abruptly, but the next thing I knew gravity was in control and I was sliding down attempting to self arrest. Fortunately the packed powder stopped me. (The rest of the trail was quite nice.)

The examiner used the term "unedgeable ice". Stuff was like matte polished concrete. No chatter at all since the edge didn't bite into the surface one bit.

[ January 23, 2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Tog ]
post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Arcmeister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by artist:
When skis chatter in control or finish of turn, what is the problem to be corrected?
I would suggest that the chatter is lateral pressure over powering the skis edge grip. The ski releases sideways, re-grips, releases, etc, etc. Too much edge to quickly plus a lot of pivot or tail displacement that is used to attempt to redirect CM from across the slope into the falline can induce chatter. A stiff outside leg that cannot regulate pressure can contribute to the problem once it starts.

The net of the problem is to much pressure applied across the skis.
I'd suggest releasing your CM more diagonally through edge change and toward the falline so that it's flow is more in direction of skis travel (along length vs across their length) as you are engaging your edges.

Moose Barrows, of U.S. Ski Team back in '70's, when asked how he controlled chattering? He replied: "Don't start".

</font>[/quote]
post #20 of 20
Thread Starter 
[Originally posted by artist:
When skis chatter in control or finish of turn, what is the problem to be corrected?[

I would suggest that the chatter is lateral pressure over powering the skis edge grip. The ski releases sideways, re-grips, releases, etc, etc. Too much edge to quickly plus a lot of pivot or tail displacement that is used to attempt to redirect CM from across the slope into the falline can induce chatter. A stiff outside leg that cannot regulate pressure can contribute to the problem once it starts.

The net of the problem is to much pressure applied across the skis.
I'd suggest releasing your CM more diagonally through edge change and toward the falline so that it's flow is more in direction of skis travel (along length vs across their length) as you are engaging your edges.

Arcmeister:
Thank you for your response. So I read that there are several ways to work with this "problem". One is to focus on a progressive edging throughout the turn; another could be to work with releasing the CM into the new turn (diagonally). For a level 9 skier, do you have a favorite progression for this (these) solutions? proper diagnosis is only the beginning!
Artist
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Another Level III Cert question