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Does balance have a point of reference? - Page 2

post #31 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The 97% comment threw me - I read that a PMTS reference, to indicate that PMTS skiers ski like statues. Which is not a respectful comment.
BigE you are reading way more into my post than I intended.
post #32 of 49
Ok then.
post #33 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Ghost,

The definition of balance I offered is commonly accepted across most athletic disciplines, including skiing.

You're using the definition of "equilibrioception" or "sense of balance" to mean "balance".

They are not the same.
Yes. equilibrioception is no doubt the more correct use of language, but I more often come across the use of the term balance used in that way in the vernacular.

It seems somehow more correct to describe someone skiing in perfect control while rhythmically going through out of equilibrium phases as being in balance than to describe them as being out of balance.
post #34 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The 97% comment threw me - I read that a PMTS reference, to indicate that PMTS skiers ski like statues. Which is not a respectful comment.
Where can I get a secret decoder ring so I can follow along?
I thought it was just a subset of skiers who skied better than 97% of the OTHER skiers.
post #35 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Where can I get a secret decoder ring so I can follow along?
I thought it was just a subset of skiers who skied better than 97% of the OTHER skiers.
I want a decoder ring too ,,, all I ever got was Harb stickers for my boots. What's the codeword for statues?

Seriously, Mr. 97% has been gone from both forums for years, and I'm confused how Pierre's 97% comment could be read as anti-pmts.
post #36 of 49
Nice, real nice....
post #37 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
For me that reference is how my mind works with my inner ear and how it perceives the CM to be flowing (core).
I tends to seperate the sensors and the working parts(different body parts). The sensors (inner ear, eyes, nerves underneath the foot and shin) provides online information. The brain(or muscles?) compares these information with a reference, make a decision of what to do next. The working parts actually do the skiing based on the decision. So yes, maybe the Base of Support is not a sufficient reference.
post #38 of 49
Wow, good stuff up to the point that it veered off course with the PMTS reference. Let me add something here that I didn't see in all the great advice given so far.

Balance is totally relative Carver, Relative to what you ask? Well if you are on a space ship you would lose the terrestrial point of reference provided by the Earth and our point(s) of contact with it. Momentary loss of contact with the Earth doesn't really change the fact that Gravity is still pulling you towards the Earth's surface and your position relative to the Earth remains much the same. That is to say you are still moving with the ground as the earth rotates and your head is still above your feet because when you land you want the skis to be your point of contact. Not your head. Obviously doing a flip in the air would necessitate moving through a moment where the head is closer to the ground than the feet but upon landing such a position would not be a desired thing.
So the first point of reference would have to be the Earth and your body's position relative to it.

A second point of reference would involve our point of contact and the body's position relative to that point. If that point of contact is where the forces would pull our body to the Earth we can resist that and remain standing. If not we would topple over and eventually come to rest on the ground (commonly called falling down). One of the unique things about skiing is we are constantly changing our body's position relative to the point of contact and to the Earth to create locomotion. In other words we are creating an unbalanced state to generate movement relative to the Earth.

Gravity also plays a unique role in that while on skis and on a ski slope (no longer on level ground) Gravity will still pull us directly down to the ground and in addition it will also pull us down hill. So the fall line and the bottom of the slope becomes another two points of reference.

Finally we are feeling all of this external stuff acting upon our bodies. So we have an internal point of reference as well. When we want to change where we are going, we change our body's position relative to the Earth and relative to our point of contact with the Earth. Just how we do that is directly related to the desired outcome but is also determined by the way it "feels". It is that tactile and proprioceptic feedback going back to the brain that helps us determine the proper Duration,Intensity,Rate,Timing of our movements.
A simple way for me to keep these reference points clear is by trying to identify which perspective I am using as a reference.
1. how it "feels" is an internal perspective.
2. What I see requires me to relate my internal feel with my view of the external world around me. In skiing our view of the horizon is very important in maintaining our "Balance" or attitude as some would call it.
3. How it looks is the perspective others relate back to me or is what is captured by a camera. Obviously this perspective requires a fixed but external point of reference (our position relative to that point or the camera position).
4. my movement across the ground relates to all points external to my body. Which includes but isn't limited to Attitude (stance)relative to the ground, Trajectory (the direction I move relative to the ground), and Speed (how fast I move relative to the ground).
5. How about the guy in the space ship who sees all of this? It's another perspective in that he isn't moving with you on the surface of the Earth. So his perspective and view of balance and balancing will be totally different as well.
So you see the whole idea of balance and balancing depends on perspective. No one answer suffices for all of those perspectives. The question needs more qualification to give you a useful answer...
post #39 of 49
haha, BigE got pwned.
post #40 of 49
Carver, I see the idea of external cues and internal cues in your last post. Both have a different point of reference. I am wondering what you would use as a reference beyond your base of support?
post #41 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
I am wondering what you would use as a reference beyond your base of support?
An immediate example would be a simple jump. The skier immediately lost his base of support. He stay balance in the air via air sense. So we can at least say air sense don't rely on any senses come from physical contact with the ground. What left is probably visual and senses from the inner ear. The reference could well be stationary objects and the water inside the ear. Now just before landing the skier would pay special attention to checking up where he is going to land, adjust his balances by working his body parts.

Your other post leads me to think if one can sense momentum. My initial guess is it is not quite possible. One can only estimate his speed by referencing other stationary object. What about angular momentum? More ideas from experts?
post #42 of 49
Actually I have more than a few books on this and drawing a conclusion about the physics isn't ever simple when it comes to skiing. Take your skier who has jumped in the air. How they became airborne has a lot to do with their position in the air and how they travel through the air. So for that matter does Gravity. Obviously they will be pulled back down to Earth. If they were moving in any direction immediately before jumping that linear momentum would carry them in the same basic direction. Same can be said for angular momentum. If they are rotating about an axis that movement will continue as well. Notice all of these movements are being described from observers perspective (point of reference).
From an internal perspective the sensations in the inner ear depend on feeling the pull of gravity and how that vector is modified by the momentum involved in our movements. We can sense our being pulled and which way is up but without seeing the ground it is hard to make a good landing. So we need more than inner ear clues. We need to relate to the outside world and that introduces external points of reference.
I think all of this is good to know and PSIA has a great book on the physics of skiing if you want to really study points of reference. For most I would say all that does is gives us too much to think about when skiing. Remember that a lot is going on and adjusting our technique to the situation takes up most of our faculties. One simple thought, or verbal cue is usually all we can effectively add to that situation. Focus instead on the movements while performing them. Make them as clean as possible. Once you can do that and perform those movements without a lot of thought and focus, concentrate on your line. Save the complex math and physics stuff for later.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
.
I think all of this is good to know and PSIA has a great book on the physics of skiing if you want to really study points of reference. For most I would say all that does is gives us too much to think about when skiing. Remember that a lot is going on and adjusting our technique to the situation takes up most of our faculties. One simple thought, or verbal cue is usually all we can effectively add to that situation. Focus instead on the movements while performing them. Make them as clean as possible. Once you can do that and perform those movements without a lot of thought and focus, concentrate on your line. Save the complex math and physics stuff for later.
No, not Just-another-ski-pro. Actually, a pretty sharp dude.

Skiing is a dance on snow of individual movements that, when done well, meld into a flowing display of art.

To get to that artistic point, yes, focus on the movements, but also focus on the sensations those movements produce. Tune into the base of your foot. Feel where the pressure is located, and how it changes as you go through a turn. Can you feel it shift between heel and ball? From ski to ski. Can you control it?

Feel what's happening at the boot cuff level. Notice what pressure your shin or calf is applying to the boot. Can you sense the difference in how your skis perform when that pressure picture changes?

Feel the interaction your skis are having with the snow. Is it quiet and smooth? Is it rough and inconsistent? Can you feel when your skis are tracking cleanly, and when they are skidding? Can you feel different amounts of skid as it happens.

Pay attention to your turn initiations. Can you feel the base of your ski go flat on the snow as it goes through a transition, and then roll onto a new edge. Can you truly feel that new edge subtly and cleanly engage the snow, then begin to arc you into a new turn? Can you feel when the initiation is not clean? Feel when the tails drift before the skis engage, and the skid sensation that follows?

Get aware of all those sensations. Learn to manage them via the movements you use to match whatever snow art picture you want to paint. You will eventually reach a point where the movements needed to produce the turn and sensation goals you choose will spontaneously emerge without conscious thought, from a trained and artistic body. Then you'll understand the full range of hidden pleasures this marvelous sport has to provide.
post #44 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
No, not Just-another-ski-pro. Actually, a pretty sharp dude.

Skiing is a dance on snow of individual movements that, when done well, meld into a flowing display of art.

To get to that artistic point, yes, focus on the movements, but also focus on the sensations those movements produce. Tune into the base of your foot. Feel where the pressure is located, and how it changes as you go through a turn. Can you feel it shift between heel and ball? From ski to ski. Can you control it?

Feel what's happening at the boot cuff level. Notice what pressure your shin or calf is applying to the boot. Can you sense the difference in how your skis perform when that pressure picture changes?

Feel the interaction your skis are having with the snow. Is it quiet and smooth? Is it rough and inconsistent? Can you feel when your skis are tracking cleanly, and when they are skidding? Can you feel different amounts of skid as it happens.

Pay attention to your turn initiations. Can you feel the base of your ski go flat on the snow as it goes through a transition, and then roll onto a new edge. Can you truly feel that new edge subtly and cleanly engage the snow, then begin to arc you into a new turn? Can you feel when the initiation is not clean? Feel when the tails drift before the skis engage, and the skid sensation that follows?

Get aware of all those sensations. Learn to manage them via the movements you use to match whatever snow art picture you want to paint. You will eventually reach a point where the movements needed to produce the turn and sensation goals you choose will spontaneously emerge without conscious thought, from a trained and artistic body. Then you'll understand the full range of hidden pleasures this marvelous sport has to provide.
This post should be required reading for every instructor. It captures the technical and artistic flavor of expert skiing. Very, very well said Rick!
post #45 of 49
While it is ok to explore every possible move in skiing scientifically, many things just remain still up to the athlete to decide when he stands on skis. Equipment has done a lot to improve the situation but the human being and the physics remain the same. If you can keep it as simple as possible in all that complexity, you will be fast.
Also it is important to not feed your athlete with too much of all that information because it will occupy his mind and therefore he/she will not be free to unleash it all and stay relaxed.
post #46 of 49
Thread Starter 
JASP & Rick - Yes, certainly great posting. Thanks.
post #47 of 49
If you can manipulate the forces to create the desired result... then you are in balance.

Often this means having the BOS support the COM against the resultant forces, whether it is the inside edge of the ski directly under your outside foot, the tip, the tail, your pole basket or your butt will all vary with your desired result and your moment in time. Sometimes the COM just needs to float freely through space in anticipation of this "balance."

Every situation is different but we can reference "balanced' skiing by looking for appropriate moves at appropriate times in the turn such equal bending and extending in the joints, inclination, angulation, counter rotation etc.
post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
From an internal perspective the sensations in the inner ear depend on feeling the pull of gravity and how that vector is modified by the momentum involved in our movements.
carver_hk specifically asked about sensing "momentum", so I'd like to clarify this a little for his/her benefit. The vector is modified by forces. Full motion simulators apply accelerations to the the inner ear, not momentums, and combined with the appropriate visual cues they are quite successful in "tricking" humans. As you implied, momentum is totally relative to the frame we decide to describe. The human senses momentum indirectly, just like machines, and this is subject to a lot of trouble if we don't have good visual references.
Quote:
Once you can do that and perform those movements without a lot of thought and focus, concentrate on your line. Save the complex math and physics stuff for later.
Yup, what you and Rick say wrt this is vastly more useful for good skiing than the fizziks.
post #49 of 49
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
carver_hk specifically asked about sensing "momentum", so I'd like to clarify this a little for his/her benefit. The vector is modified by forces. Full motion simulators apply accelerations to the the inner ear, not momentums, and combined with the appropriate visual cues they are quite successful in "tricking" humans. As you implied, momentum is totally relative to the frame we decide to describe. The human senses momentum indirectly, just like machines, and this is subject to a lot of trouble if we don't have good visual references.
Thanks for bringing back this specific issue. Yes I think its all clear now. It definitely helps in understand skiing.
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