New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

UP motion with edge change

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I know I do this, if not all the time, much of the time, especially when I'm in gaper-racer mode, making turns at what for me are fast speeds. I know the proper movements are lateral, rather than vertical, and I suspect this movement up is kind of a "make sure" move, very deliberate and "big," ensuring a half-assed lateral move doesn't get me a caught edge.

Were I to take an on-piste-based class, would this be eliminated, or would it be seen as a harmless, if unnecessary move?
post #2 of 19
Are you talking about the difference between a cross over transition and a cross under transition? A cross under is much more "new school" but it isnt alway practical, especially if youre late in a tight course. Cross over provides a way of getting back on top of your downhill edge and riding it very powerfully through the turn. Often on tightly set GS courses that are steep i will opt for the cross over instead of cross under. PM me if you would like any further explanation. Both techniques have their place. Typically when free skiing on groomed snow i use a cross under only, just because ideally it is much faster. If i can master it in my free skiing i should be able to bring it into the gates.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
thanks, greg. i suspect it's this crossOVER you're talking about.

[ January 23, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: ryan ]
post #4 of 19
ryan, it also depends on how much "up" you mean and what other moves accompany it. Often, up moves, steps, and so on we use to try to effectively climb back up the hill when we're getting late. If your earlier turn ended too low, that can contribute.

Also, if you aren't comfortable moving rapidly into the turn (the "Leap of Faith"), you may avoid it. It is slower, though, because it is at least partially defensive (by Bob Barnes' definition). You're moving in a direction not into the new turn (unless I am misinterpreting your action).
post #5 of 19
Originally posted by HeluvaSkier:
Both techniques have their place.GREG
Can you expand on this Heluva? I've played with both without understanding the pros and cons. Think cross-under in neater, but tend to revert to cross-over when just skiing without thinking about it too much. Thanks, rickp
post #6 of 19
Well, in my original post i explained a few of the uses or applications of both. But here is some more detail. For years i tried to break myself of the cross over (which is standing up slightly in your transition in order to be right on top of your downhill ski when you are entering the next turn). I always used it as a way to bend my skis A LOT by using all of my body weight. Once i learned the cross under technique and refined it into my GS skiing, i began prominantly using it. The cross under is faster, and you use your momentum to bend your skis, but if the edges dont hook up, you are in trouble. This is where you hear of athletes tossing their skis off from under them and waiting for the edge to catch in the turn. When the edge catches you rocket to the next turn. However, despite its quickness, if you are in a slow course it isnt practical, because you cannot bend the skis using your momentum anymore. This is where moving up over the skis will help you. When executed properly it will allow you to be very foreward on your skis through the whole turn. It will also let you accelerate to a speed where you can begin to just toss your skis off from under you. Again, a mixture of both techniques tends to be very fast, especially if you are concerned about being late in a steep turny section of the course. The cross under is always faster, but not always as easy to use, so it can cause you to blow out, or get very late. I prefer to use mostly cross under when im racing, but if i am confronted with a tricky head wall i will revert back to cross under so that i am on time and fast through the rest of the course, since it is often about carrying speed through the flats at the races that i race in.
post #7 of 19
Ryan, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are not talking about racing in gates, are you?

post #8 of 19
Thread Starter 
no ott, i'm not. just (gaper) racer-TYPE turns with a bit of velocity down the hill.

gates are in the future, though.
post #9 of 19
Ryan - for what it is worth I tend to think of trying to keep the pressure on the snow very even through the turns & to "keep hips aimed towards the next gate" the flexion & extension is more natural I guess & the hip stuff is my bug bear atm - so it may not work for you...

One hint - that was useless for me - was to always be extending one leg while retracting the otnher one - then cycle backwards.... the "even pressure" is better for me - no pushing on the snow harder or softer anywhere in the turn...
post #10 of 19
I apologize for all of the references to racing, especially since youre not looking to be racing at this point in time, but i feel that it is the easiest way to illustrate the advantages and disadvantages of each transition style. The hint that was given to extend one leg and retract the other is an excellent one, as well as keeping your hips aimed at the next gate/turn. You should be doing these things whether you are moving up slightly in your transition or just pushing your skis off from underneath you. My advice is to stick with what is comfortable when you are on steeper terrain - use standing up as maybe a crutch almost. Don't confuse that with moving into the back seat though. My brother has that habbit - always stands up and moves back in his turns. So make sure the movement is positive and foreward. When you are on flatter more comfortable terrain, get comfortable with trusting your edges, and keep your shoulders lower during the transition, keep your legs/knees equally apart and roll your skis from turn to turn. Be sure that you do not lose your quickness or dip to your indide (often a problem with remaining lower in your turn). I'd stay and write more but i have to be up for a race in 5 hours.
post #11 of 19

The up move is not harmless. It's an energy robber and it makes it harder to get on the new edges. The movement we seek is diagonally forward to the inside of the turn. It looks like lateral movement because the hips end up inside the new turn, but too much lateral movement will make your turns less efficient as well.

Instruction can help you get rid of the up motion, but you're probably also going to need a lot of work. It's one of those habits that is hard to break.

[ January 26, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: therusty ]
post #12 of 19
Perhaps this will help, Ryan: Remember that "up and down" involve movements of the flexion-extension movement pool (that is, the "pressure-control skill"), while edge change is a tipping movement (edging skill). While we may often rise while we reduce edge angles to release and start a new turn, the two movements (extending and tipping/flattening) are independent of each other. Rising does not necessarily release or change your edges, and changing your edges does not necessarily require rising.

The instruction to "rise to release and initiate a turn" is one of the more unfortunate, but most common, bits of poor advice out there. First, as I mentioned, it is not rising that releases edges, but flattening. Second, either way, it does not happen at the initiation of the turn. Initiation occurs once the edges have released--not when we START flattening (or rising). In other words, if you rise to start a turn, even if the rising accompanies flattening of the skis, the turn will begin not when you begin rising, but when you HAVE RISEN! If you want your turns to be smoothly linked, the rising/flattening must occur at the END of the PREVIOUS turn, not the beginning of the next turn.

This misinformation is related to the common mis-advice to "start a turn tall, then flex progressively to end the turn low." Think about it--if you want your turns to be seamlessly linked, they must begin and end in the same attitude and stance. I call this stance "neutral," which I'll define simply as the position from which the turn starts--whatever that may be. Clearly, the actual turn begins with a release of the edge(s), so "neutral" represents the moment the skis become flat enough to release their edges (which does not necessariy mean totally flat on the snow--neutral implies minimum "critical edge angle," a concept we have discussed here several times). Because the tipping/flattening and flexing/extending movement pools are independent, "neutral" can mean tall, short, or anything in between, depending on skier intent and conditions (in moguls it generally happens when the skier is flexed very low).

So--rather than thinking of an "up motion with edge change," think of FINISHING your turns in "neutral." If you do it right, your new turns will feel effortless, because everything you have to do to start them you'll have already done by the end of the previous turn. You'll already be in the right "position," and all necessary movements (i.e. the "crossover") will already be in motion. Your turns will be seamless, effortless, and incredibly smoothly linked.

No matter how much edge angle you develop in the middle of the turn, then, it should all vanish by the turn's finish. The turn should END with "critical edge angle"--any more and the turn is really not over, and you are not nearly ready to begin the next one. If you choose to rise (extend) as you flatten the skis, you should be at your tallest at the END of the turn, leaving absolutely no reason to extend to start the next one.

In summary, it is entirely unnecessary, although sometimes desirable, to rise/extend in the transition between turns. It IS necessary to release the edges in the transition, but that flattening movement does not necessarily require rising. I rise (sometimes) because I CAN--not because I HAVE TO. Rising gives me a moment to relax and rest my legs briefly--an advantage when free skiing for fun. It may not be the quickest way to release and reengage the edges, so I may not do it when racing. Because my transition in moguls usually occurs on top of a bump, I MUST learn to release my edges while remaining highly flexed.

Finally, all this discussion assumes offensive turns with no redirection of the skis during the transition. If I need braking (skidding) or otherwise want to redirect my skis before re-engaging my edges, I may well rise to "unweight" them, making the redirection easier. But that's another story....

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #13 of 19
I know what you are on about, as I'm an inveterate bobber. I bob, I like it! And i don't care.
However, for racing, you want to keep a low profile, for cutting down wind resistance, for efficiency, and speed.
so you want to extend outwards, rather than upwards.
You'll need a lesson to get this fully, but rather than standing up or even jumping up, you are combining the extension move with the turning move, so you are turning and extending at the same time. So your extentsion happens while you are turning and therefore happens laterally rather than vertically.
So grab a lesson and "get" it the way you have to in skiing.

I can do this stuff but I have to confess I still like the feeling of popping up vertically, as I learned this in the 60s and it still feels pretty good! (like eating cornchips, sour cream and pickled jalapenos).
post #14 of 19
No--I Bob. You Ant!

post #15 of 19
Originally posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado:

The instruction to "rise to release and initiate a turn" is one of the more unfortunate, but most common, bits of poor advice out there.
I have heard the "rise to release..." in several lessons, including one last week.

It seemed pretty effective in our class, but, following Bob's logic it is obviously incorrect.

Is this effective because of the unweighting that comes with it, allowing easy rotary input?

Why is it so commonly taught when it is incorrect? It seems to produce the desired effect, buy why?
post #16 of 19
Pardon a non-pro sticking his head in where it doesn't belong, but could part of the problem be confusion between flexion/extension and "rise and release?" Could the instructor be saying "rise and release" while what he's demonstrating be "extending" into the new turn. In other words, perhaps he/she was demonstrating correctly, but using terminology that he/she thought the student(s) would better comprehend.
post #17 of 19
Most of the people I see who tecah 'rise' also tend to 'flatten' as they rise....

I trailed around a few group lessons middle of this season & got 'taught' to do the rise stuff...

The race guys threw a fit about a week later - asking my instrctor what the #@$% had happend to my skiing

I had simply gone through the motions demoed & lost my normal action - took an hour to undo that & even longer to really get it back.

I now have to try to remember that if anyone asks for "rising" I am to simply try to extend more or check my edging out

I have been told to avoid all lessons starting at a certain location - they are bad for my skiing. I can follow group lessons only if they have higher level instructors that we know (they will give me my own 'special feedback')
post #18 of 19
I'll thow a couple of pennies into this well.

I agree with Bob. But I'll state what I didn't already see. Not that this info might not already be there, but I simply don't have the time to read all of the posts, since I haven't looked at Epic in way too long.

I have 2 distinct issues with the old "rise and release", or crossover, or whatever term or phrase we want to throw at it. In the old days, it was how we skied, but we have learned better. Over the past couple of years, I have become almost exclusively a cross under (just passing through) skier.

1- Most (not all, but a huge percentage) of skers who use an extension move through the turn transition, move too vertically, and not into the turn. This means they are moving away from the direction of the new turn. This creates unnecessary movement (inefficient), and does not facilitate, but rather, inhibits, the actual CROSSover part of the crossover, by making it take longer to get the CM across both sets of edges.

2- It creates excessive pressure at exactly the wrong part of the turn. That extension move adds pressure to the skis against the snow. This creates unwanted/unneeded skidding at the bottom of the turn when gravity is also exerting the greatest amount of pressure against the snow. This may also have the undesireable effect of a pushoff move. Then, best case, you hit the top of the extension move as you are changing onto the new turning edges (now on the downhill side). This has the nasty effect of not allowing the edges to do what they are supposed to do - redirect your CM - because you don't have enough pressure on the skis, no matter how high an early edge angle you create, to be effective at doing anything other than throwing a very little bit of snow around.

At the top of the new turn, gravity is not helping you move your CM through the radius of a turn, because it is taking pressure away from the ski/snow contact. Therefore, you need to do what you can to increase the forces of the ski snow contact. If you are able to actively extend your legs in the top third of the turn, you will be able to create enough of this force to make a turn. You will also find that extending when the external forces are the weakest is a lot easier on your leg muscles, then trying to extend against all of the forces that have built up at the bottom of the turn. This is more efficent (economy of motion, anyone?). Another positive effect is more noticable for those of us on Ice Coa.. uh, I mean East Coast. By evening out the pressure throughout the turn, your edges will hold better on the ice. All of this also allows you to control your speed more effectively at the top of the turn, before you have accellerated through the fall line.
post #19 of 19
I think 2 is why i found "keep even pressure on snow through turn" was a good key - it stopped me from applying pressure by "bobbing" ....
I had already spent much time learning to edge roll - so I could seperate edging/flattening skills quite well
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching