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Getting Skis to Rebound

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
I got a pair of Rossignol WC 9S and I am trouble getting the ski to throw you to the next age. Everyone says the ski has lots of energy. I can get some good rebound for a couple of turns but can't emulate it

Thanks
post #2 of 24
Unfortunately, I don't think that this is a problem that can be fixed by tips over the internet.

Having a clean arc and good rebound from a turn (and linking and repeating, rather than just one) requires that everything is correct going into and through the turn. The recentering and crossover move need to happen at the correct time such that you are able to release the skis cleanly.

I have no idea what is going on in your skiing, so I can't give you any tips besides standard "how to arc your ski" kind of stuff. If you just want to feel that rebound in your ski, you can do it the quick and dirty way and come out the back on your turns and "juice" the ski. Your skis will come out in front of you, and you have a high probability of crashing. If you have ever watched Bode do slalom, he does this at least once a run.

I haven't skied last years 9s WC, but having skied this years, I don't find it to be a very 'juicy' ski. I like the Elan, Fischer and Volkl for turn energy.

Good luck (don't get hurt)
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
It is the 03 model. I believe am doing everything right so probally not flexing the ski enough to get a sharp rebound. It is race stock so this could be an issue. The ski does work well making mini gs turns, so I am flexing it some what!

Thanks
post #4 of 24
It's hard to give advice without seeing you ski, but I will anyway. The clue is that you wrote that you get good rebound with your first few turns. Sometimes when a skier's first turns are good but each turn gets progressively worse, it's because the skier is not extending enough in the early part of the turn. The skier flexs as he ends his turn, but subsequently extends less in the next turn. This puts him more and more back on his skis. Try extending as much as possible in each turn and see what happens, and let me know how it goes.

John
post #5 of 24
BB, as John said without seeing you ski it is difficult to isolate the cause of the problem because as with most undesired results there can be various causes. The best that can be done is to present a potential cause then leave it to you to play with it on the slope and see if it helps. With that thought I'll give you one cause of lack of rebound which is quite common.

Rebound is the energy that is released when pressure is removed from a carving ski, and the potential energy the ski has stored in reverse camber (a bent ski) is released. To be used to it's greatest potential it must be a SUDDEN AND WELL TIMED removal of pressure from the ski, simutaneously coupled with a projection of your body forward and over the top of you skis (the cross over). A common error that can diminish rebound is if the skier leans in at end of the turn. What this does is to remove pressure on the outside ski to soon. When that happens the ski gradually comes out of reverse camber and the potential energy it was carring dissipates so that little is left at the time of turn completion. This situation is ussally associated with a fall onto the inside ski before body projection occurs and occasionally in severe cases the outside ski tracks away from the skier before he has completed his turn giving him that "doing the splits" feeling. Focusing on keeping the inside shoulder up high at the end of the turns sometimes helps with this problem.

Hope this helps.
post #6 of 24
Here comes the doggone crossover discussion. Haeness the energy of the skis and go where you intend to go. Head towards the apex of the new turn. Head on an appropriate line for the next gate. Don't cross over the skis.....Go There!

Finish a turn neutral. Get stacked up over the ski. Use this ski's energy to go forward.

Quit hucking!!!!
post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:

Finish a turn neutral. Get stacked up over the ski. Use this ski's energy to go forward.

Quit hucking!!!!
Rusty,

Just what we were playing with in TA training this morning.

First we toyed with the older concept of rebounding off of the braced outside ski(s), up over the new outside ski-here comes the up and over rotary pushoff. Then we changed to moving to a tall finish, releasing the edges of both skis and let the energy take you forward. The move is just so dynamic and fluid. It is all about letting momentum taking you where you want to go, not up and away in a negative move.
post #8 of 24
Rusty, excuse my bluntness, but your comments of objection to my post are ridiculous. Your phobia for the usage of the term cross over makes it no less a crucial element in the smooth linkage of arc to arc carved turns which was what I was attempting describe.

Arc to arc means where one turn ends the next begins. A carved turn can't begin if the skis are not put on edge, and skis can't be put on edge if the CM is not moved to the inside the skis. If you do not move the CM from one side of the skis to the other side at the end of a turn you CAN'T execute arc to arc turns. That is so pitifully elementary I can't believe I've had to waste my time explaining it.

Yes, you should go forward with the rebound energy, it helps direct the rebound into the intended direction of travel. Projecting forward also helps put/keep the skier in a positive fore/aft position and compensates for the rebounds tendancy to put the skier in the back seat. I acknowledged that fact when I suggested projecting the body FORWARD and over the top of the skis. However, by your suggestion to go forward only and omit the cross over all you have done is change the turn series from (arc to arc) to (arc to traverse to arc), the length of the traverse dictated by the point at which you finally decide you'd like to finally move your CM inside your feet so you can put your ski on a new edge and turn.

You of coarse can ski that way if you like (arc to traverse to arc), there certainly are no rules against it. I don't because that pause between the arcs seems to my sense of perception to detract from from the natural flow derived in arc to arc skiing. And you will not see it on the race coarse, as you suggest, except at the occasional through gate the coarse setter puts in to move the racer across the slope.
post #9 of 24
So, it seems this got beat to death fast. Sl is mini-GS now, so thats not a bad place to be with the skis.

If it is the gold (not yellow) and black 9s as I think it is, that ski doesn't give you any energy. You gotta do it all yourself. A very forgiving ski, initiates and carves easily. No juice though. Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

My 2 cents- the crossover is a fundamental move in racing. Hands down it needs to be done. I even think that if you traverse in a delay, you are going slow, because you didn't make a bigger arc. More time in the fall line = fast. But, I do think that I know what you are talking about Fastman. I'm just splitting hairs.

My coach teaches crossover, and if you tell me he's wrong I'm just going to laugh.

Need BB, are you getting enough angulation/edge angle? Thats the power right there.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by FastMan:
[QB]
A carved turn can't begin if the skis are not put on edge, and skis can't be put on edge if the CM is not moved to the inside the skis. If you do not move the CM from one side of the skis to the other side at the end of a turn you CAN'T execute arc to arc turns. That is so pitifully elementary I can't believe I've had to waste my time explaining it.

QB]
I respectfully disagree. A ski can be put on edge with movements that begin in the foot. I'm sitting here with my hips planted in a chair with my bare feet supinating, inverting, abducting, etc. My body hasn't moved. My hips haven't moved. This is the very thing Ski and Golf is working on at Copper and it is most likely being led by our own Bob Barnes.

Yes, I CAN create inclination by moving my body inside the turn Yes, I will eventually have to move my center of mass inside the turn to deal with gravity. I simply want to suggest to you that "crossing over" does not have to be the genisis of any turn.

Sorry you had to waste your time with the pitifully elementary. If you get a chance, sit in a desk chair that swivels in your bare feet and try it.
post #11 of 24
Rusty

Your not wearing your ski boots are you?

CalG
post #12 of 24
They are drying......gotta go to work in a minute. A bunch of us did put boots on in July and sit at the computer here to discuss this movement!
post #13 of 24
Boys, boys, boys! Both techniques work and I would have to say that neither one is better than the other. Think of both as tools to get your ass down the hill. : One can stack and use the ankle tip only to change direction. Or one can move the CM across the skis to create the appropriate edge angles for a smooth arcing turn. The important thing is, if it feels good, do it. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] ----------------Wigs
post #14 of 24
Wigs.

Quote:
one can move the CM across the skis to create the appropriate edge angles for a smooth arcing turn
How do you move the CM across the skis?

Yd
post #15 of 24
Rusty, yes it is pretty easy to articulate your ankles to simulate putting a ski on edge and keep your CM directly over you feet while standing in the living room. It can even be done in ski boots, though the rigidity of the boots does not allow the ankle to do most the work so contortion of the knee and hip is necessary.

The problem with your simulation is that when you put a ski on edge on snow and apply pressure it immediately begins to turn and divert your direction of travel away from the direction of momentum. In other words, it produces centrifugal force. At the top of the turn it is not gravity you must combat, it is centrifugal force. That is the missing element in your living room simulation exercise.

To refine that living room exercise have a friend pull on your outside arm to simulate centrifugal force while you are balanced on your make believe edges with your CM directly over your feet. I bet once he begins to pull you quickly move your CM to the inside of your feet to oppose his pulling. If you don't you will quickly find yourself on the ground.

The same thing happens when skiing, if you put your ski on edge and pressure it (no matter what means you use to do so) you immediately begin to create centrifugal force and if you do not move the CM inside the skis the appropriate amount to oppose this force you would be catapulted to the outside of the arc. Granted, at the top of the turn the forces are low and necessary inside movement of CM is minimal as compared to latter in the arc when degree of edge has been increased and the force of gravity begins to work in cooperation with centrifulgal force, but it still must be present.

All the therory and clinics in the world can't change the laws of physics.
post #16 of 24
Well folks, cross over is all about how you look at it and understand it. Most of the controversy comes from whether you need to make it happen or if it happens naturally as a consequence.

For crossover to happen, at the end of one arc the body/CM has to move faster downhill than the skis. Consequently the skis are on edge in front of the skier somewhat crossways to the fall line and the body mass is allowed to move downhill at a greater speed than the edged skis which are resisting that.

Rebound can not be involved in that move since rebounding from an edged and loaded ski would propell the skier uphill/inside and the maneuver would fail. Instead the springboard effect is absorbed by flexing as the CM flows over the skis which are flattened first and edges on the new edges.

My take is that when skiing, the above happens without the need of input by the skier, as mentioned by Rusty.

And now to the original question of rebounding skis. All skis can be loaded and rebounded, some are stiff as diving boards and propell the skiers hard and others are noodles with a lot less rebound.

Rebound is usefull in what is called cross under and is used mostly in fall line skiing and slalom. In that maneuver the body/CM also does not deflect much from its line of travel, just as much as the skier wants.

Rebound from the skis energy is actually an unweighting move, starting to push the skier upward/sideways into momentary suspension just long enough to retract the lightened legs and skis and move them underneath the body to the other side, slalom skiers in tight gates need to get the skis to the other side quickly and often allow themselves to be rebounded off the snow to move the skis quickly to the other side and new edges.

Personally, I just go out and ski and let happen whatever happens [img]smile.gif[/img]

....Ott
post #17 of 24
Sorry BB that your thread, which was presented as a question on rebound, has diverted into a technical analysis of the physics of skiing. I'm sure this is helping you very little. I'll cease to engage in the debate on your thread any further. Fastman [img]redface.gif[/img]
post #18 of 24
BB,
My observations are that the new SL skis have much less 'rebound' than previous models - with the shorter lengths, the camber is 'lightened' - the skis still feel energetic, they are just a bit more predictable and tend less to jump off the snow on edge release. Frankly, a good thing so you dont't get ejected out of the turn. Less of a tendency to stimulate linked recoveries. Want more juice? Look for more camber.

Crossover/Crossunder. Yep. They both work. Depends on the turn. Which can you do with less effort: move a 100 lb mass or a 20 lb mass?
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Rusty Guy:
Here comes the doggone crossover discussion. Haeness the energy of the skis and go where you intend to go. Head towards the apex of the new turn. Head on an appropriate line for the next gate. Don't cross over the skis.....Go There!

Finish a turn neutral. Get stacked up over the ski. Use this ski's energy to go forward.

Quit hucking!!!!
The idea of finishing in neutral is the latest thing I hear about on the slopes. Even in the Pontiac World of Skiing program, I saw Rob Butler giving tips on finishing the turn in neutral.

The question is why? Why emphasize that neutral position? Why make a point of having a ski with no energy under you before you start the next turn. I agree that finishing the turn in neutral helps you get stacked up and balanced over the skis. I agree that this is an alternative to cross-over or cross-under (or several other techniques). But what is the big deal? Why emphasize this if the skier has no visible problems at the end of the turn.
post #20 of 24
Wigs said, "The important thing is, if it feels good, do it!"

Yup, that's the ticket! I'm not an instructor, but I am a long-time so-called expert and do tend to get hung up on these technical conjectures. But now, I'm just focusing on having fun - and skiing better than ever in the process - at least I think so!

I go skiing 'cause it's fun!
post #21 of 24
TomB

For an interesting discussion on neutral go here:

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...=001345#000000 .
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Ydnar:
Wigs.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> one can move the CM across the skis to create the appropriate edge angles for a smooth arcing turn
How do you move the CM across the skis?

Yd
</font>[/quote]Ydnar,

I think that Ott answers that question quite well. But moving the CM across the skis is simply moving your body from the hips up to the inside of the new turn.-------------Wigs
post #23 of 24
OK, to answer your initial question: I certainly don't think this is the most efficient way to ski, but it IS loads of fun! At the end of a turn, jam your downhill edges hard into the snow. If the skis have the right flex, you'll get thrown up into the air and you'll be naturally started rotating into the next turn. (This seems to work best on steep firm slopes.) Once you get used to it, you can fine-tune it to be more subtle if you want to. I'm not saying it's 'good' skiing, but just great fun - which, come to think of it, IS 'good' skiing - isn't it? OK, real ski pro's ... am I oversimplifying?
post #24 of 24
BB -

Heed Ott's advice re. cross-under and try using your pole just before the turn. For better effect, plant the pole really hard below your downhill boot, turning your palm, not knuckles, forward. Spring-load your body (the way you would on a bump) prior to planting the pole, and then stick it in. The correct corkscrew position of the body and the pole planted at the right angle should allow you to feel the rebound.

High-energy skis don't like static body positions, so you have to be in the back (end of turn), in neutral (control / pivot), and in front (initiation), depending on the phase of the turn you are doing.

If you still don't get the rebound, then you may be too light for this ski or not driving it fast enough.
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