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Ski Design

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 
Ran across this site about Injuries and Carving skis,ect.
web page
post #2 of 20
Did you see the pictures of the two skiers!? [img]smile.gif[/img] The guy is obviously not a really serious skier himself! He compares a picture of what looks like an advanced recreational skier looking pretty stiff and posed . . . . to a World Cup skier! He does this to try and prove a difference between the tecnique demanded by more shaped vs. less shaped skis. As if those two skiers would ski like each other if they swapped skis!?!

(Actually, I think the W.C. skier is on "traditional" skis in that picture anyways! Which really whacks his point.)

Look at the photo at the start of the article, the Atomics look like they are broken about 6" ahead of the boot, they are certainly hinging an abnormal way.

In any case thats just the tip of the iceberg - the article is full of such stuff. Not that I think his entire point is suspect. But I also was entertained by the fact that he seems to push for one supposition through the body of the entire article, but then reverses himself at the very end with "The very latest data on carving skis is more reassuring. At the 2001 ISSS conference, data was presented both from our own study here in Scotland and a study from Perisher Blue in Australia to show that carving skis no longer seem to be associated with an excess of injuries."

Interesting link!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 16, 2001 11:21 PM: Message edited 1 time, by Todd Murchison ]</font>
post #3 of 20
Quote:
"The manufacturers sell them on the basis that they are easier to ski, that beginners can progress more quickly and that skiers will be able to respond quicker to an emergency situation and hence less injuries will be seen. "
You really gotta wonder where this guy got his info! Does he even ski??
post #4 of 20
Interesting. You think he looks like an advanced skier? Not them I'm one to judge, but the shoulders look a bit high, and the pelvis is overly tucked, indicating a need to use external, rather than internal stabilizers for balance.

Not trying to take this off topic, and I'm also not trying to post my conference notes all over the internet, but recent studies have shown that ironically, as gear, equipment, exercise machines, and athletic footwear for ALL sports has become more sophisticated, ther has actually been an increase in orthopedic injuries. The speculated reason is that people are relying more on equipment to "do the job for them" rather then take the time to learn the subtleties and nuances of good form.

Besides, why did he have to use java on that site? :
post #5 of 20
LisaMarie Reports: "recent studies have shown that ironically, as gear, equipment, exercise machines, and athletic footwear for ALL sports has become more sophisticated, ther has actually been an increase in orthopedic injuries."

Using gear as a crutch instead of taking the time to develop the relevant musculature and skill IS the American Way, you know :~)
post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
I thought the whole page was.....LAME. Poor ski tech. by the author. Better stick with Web Design. But good or bad it's information to be considered.
post #7 of 20
Yeah - I was trying to have a soft touch in case anybody here skis like that LM!
post #8 of 20
Thread Starter 
I noticed you were being on your best behavior. Looks like LM will get some ski lessons at Fernie.
post #9 of 20
Uh huh! Todd has this way of making his students so aware of the subtleties of bad form, that we turn into monsters when we look at a photo like that.

Look at the photo in your profile, slider. You're pushing an adaptive ski sled {cool!}, which would add somewhat of a stability challenge, but your pelvis is in a relatively more neutral position than the skier on the site. This tells me that since you have efficient use of your stabilizers, shaped skis are adjunctive to your technique, rather than a crutch.

Now, if only my OWN technique was as good as my eye.

BTW, I don't think ANY of the instructors should teach us gapers at Fernie. Its your vacation. I'm even going to try to avoid taking lessons from the ski school. If I get a "bad" lesson, I know everyone will want to comment. But then you'd still be working!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 17, 2001 08:48 AM: Message edited 1 time, by Lisamarie ]</font>
post #10 of 20
Thread Starter 
Mr. Todd has taught you well. Balance is everything,without out it the rest is a struggle. Having an "eye" for it makes all the difference. Give yourself sometime,stay focused and determined to be the best you can and you will. One note...you don't push a sit-skier down the hill,he will PULL you. I have worked with men that weighted over 200#,let me tell you,after all day your Gluts are on fire. Thanks for the + on my ski tech. [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #11 of 20
Why is there a comparison of an intermediate skier obviously making a skidded turn being to a competitive racer making a carved racing turn.

She has little or no dynamic anticipation, but in spite of her turn quality , she does seem to be in balance, as is the racer.

Finally, is there any data to show that injuries on shaped skis are more frequent and of a more severe nature than on traditional skis ? I haven't seen any,but skiing injuries are still a fact of life.

The new plastic boots and release bindings or the 80"s, dramatically reduced the amount of leg and ankle fractures, but in its place are the more numerous ACL injuries.

I don't think anyone is going back to traditional shaped skis based on evidence that you will get hurt on them. However, if you are going to get killed at a much higher rate than being on traditional skis, then something will have to change.

If indeed that were the case [ and I don't believe anyone believes it is ] the changes would be made to the present skis, not a return to the traditional shaped skis. Likewise would anyone want to return the "bare claw" clamp bindings without ski brakes, because they would avoid a potential ACL injury....I don't think so !
post #12 of 20
>>>difference is known as the "side cut". It is commonly expressed in cm such as 100-72-90 meaning the width at the tip is 100cm, at the middle is 72cm and at the tail is 90cm<<<

Since the guy is skiing on skis which are over three feet wide at the shovel, what can you expect?

....Ott
post #13 of 20
IMHO

The whole modern equipment = more injuries thing may have some resonance.

Modern equipment hugs you tighter and grips the terrain tighter so the user is "married" to the sports environment tighter. This could mean that more force is being applied to the body. If this was the case then the "point of disaster" may involve higher forces hence a "disaster" may be more injurious. (Carve skis. Gym shoes, MB tires etc)

We seem to have moved the “point of release” right to the body\environment contact point and the environment is an uncontrolled entity.

Just a thought.

Oz [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #14 of 20
Heh - good observation about the ski measurements Ott! I think the guy was clearly just hacking out a ski article for some reason or another (depressing to think that somebody might have paid for his "research" ?!)

I do know that personally I'm in more danger on the new equipment than I ever was on older gear. Mostly because I'm simply skiing far faster and the carve radius is forcing me to deal with far more force than ever before. The higher G-forces we feel now are not just us pushing harder on the skis, the skis are pushing back equally hard -- and our bodies have to deal with it. The World Cup folks are doing amazing things on the new gear, but they are also looking more and more like football players!

That being said, any extra danger is fine with me . . . because its worth it!
post #15 of 20
Good point, Ott! I can certainly see why those 3-foot-plus wide skis might be a little hard to manage safely! But oh, what fun they might be in powder....

I've got to agree with you guys--I don't think this guy has ever made a turn. His "article" reminds me of some kid writing a research paper by simply quoting from an encyclopedia, but trying to make it look like he actually did some research.

It's articles like this one that make me appreciate even more the value of discussion groups like the Barking Bears!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #16 of 20
Man from Oz, I think you're on the right track here. The better equipment gets, the less slack is in the system, the less slack in the system at the end of your leg, the greater the amount and amplitude of stress and shock transmitted up the leg to the first shock absorber it comes to, your knee, with the expected resultant problems.

Add into the mix a ski that keeps grabbing more the harder it is flexed and weighted and you get some big overload forces whose first conduit to the rest of the body is your poor old knee. With straight skis that skidded much easier, if you fell you could slide til you got your feet under you and then roll up without having to stop. If things don't go perfectly, doing this with modern skis can blow your knee to smithereens since the skis may hook up very quickly and turn under you with a nasty shearing motion to all the attachments in your knee joints. Being aware and proactive to avoid injury when you fall has always been a necessity in our sport, now more than ever there are some ways that you simply can't let yourself fall.

Another factor might be the tendency to bump up your din settings(many of us do this, I think) to compensate for the greater g-forces developed by todays equipment or to make sure they don't come off in terrain where they're not supposed to, etc. In certain cases this is appropriate, but it does immediately make your knee vulnerable to low impact, twisting falls, as well as making the "phantom foot" more powerful.

I don't know if there are actually more injuries than before but I bet more of them focus on the knee in the long run. Years ago sprained ankles and feet seemed to be more common than knees, I may be off on this, subjective memory and all.

Last of all, you have to be strong to ski safely at a high level. If you are out of shape you are prone to injury no matter how accomplished you are. No better preventative measure than strong hamstrings, quads, and rest of body. I'll quit blatting now. This waiting for snow is unbearable.
joel

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ November 17, 2001 10:13 PM: Message edited 3 times, by joel ]</font>
post #17 of 20
Pretty sad info.
post #18 of 20
My guess here is that we are witnessing a phenomena here:

A. "publish or perish" usuall done to maintain an instructoral position "at university".

B. I got this bloody grant and have to do something with the money!

Note that this was for some "immediate care association".......... through Lancet???? They should rename this as an "IMMEDIATE SCARE association".

I'm sure DBrian can fill us in. The author does give us a clue as to his degree of scholarship by indicating that it is, in part, from tap room lure.
post #19 of 20
I can't quote the detailed figures, but I remember seeing that cycling injuries in Australia went up when they made helmets compulsory, and that in the UK people with ABS have more accidents than people who don't. Same probably applies to skiing equipment.

Might be difficult to remove other factors, but are people with avalanche transceivers, shovels etc more prone to get stuck somewhere than those with nothing?
post #20 of 20
Yah, I agree with all of you. Bad diagrams, info, and the two skiers shouldn't have been used together. I also think, as someone has already mentioned, that the racer is on straight skis. My reasoning: I don't think that fisher makes a ski with pointy tips like that any more (I could be wrong). If they are new skis it still is a bad comparison because the racer is either on a DH or SG coarse. DH skis have not changed all that much in width since the early 90's. Also, on newer skis there is much more hip angulation than before. Take a look at a Hermain Meir photo from a DH or SG race then compare it to that one, big difference.
Ya know I could be completly wrong too. Some times it's fun to nit pick. :

CERAF
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