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Watea 84 Mounting Position?

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
This may be a mystery not worth solving, but I am the curious type so here goes....

Have a new pair of 167cm Fischer Watea 84's ready for some flat-mounted alpine bindings. I just found that my BoF (ball of foot) will be 1.5cm in front of the ski's CRS (center of running surface) if I use the ski's boot center mark. This appears to be the opposite of what others have posted on EpicSkier, like those in http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=67196

Has anyone else with 167cm Watea 84's found this to be the case and where did you mount your bindings?

Some background info that may be of help:
  1. Iā€™m 5ā€™6ā€, 130lbs., level 8-ish (though 50-ish) skier that sticks with the un-groomed, trees, etc.
  2. I intend to use the Watea 84's as my "everyday" CO ski (I have a hardpack ski and Gotama's for the deep days).
  3. Boots - sz 25.5 Falcon 10's with 295mm sole length. My BoF is 6.5cm from the boot's center mark
  4. My Watea's CRS measurement shows that it is only 5cm in front of the boot center mark (that would mean only a person with very tiny feet would end up with their BoF at or behind the ski's CRS if using the ski's boot center mark).
BTW - I demo'd the Watea 84's last year with my boots set at the ski's center mark. They skied fairly neutral in most conditions. However, their deep powder (12"+) performance was amazing so I know I don't want to mount them further back. OTOH I was originally thinking of mounting them +1cm because I had some trouble with the tips deflecting off of harder bumps (this is probably due more to the ski's wide tips and my technique, rather than the binding location). Also, last year's Skiing mag review of the Watea 84's stated "...lighter weight testers complained about the stiff shovel....Consider mounting a centimeter forward."

At this point all evidence would indicate that sticking with the ski's boot center mark would make the best sense - your thoughts?
post #2 of 14
Double-check the CRS measurement, make sure it is based on the contact points. And *definitely* double-check the BOF measurement with your foot/boot. My BOF is 6.5cm ahead of the boot center on my 325mm Xwave 9 boots. Knowing how boot soles scale with foot size (the front and back lugs are unchanged but the middle varies) I would not expect your boots to also have a 6.5cm delta with 30mm less length in the middle.

Who knows, maybe the 167s are marked differently. But you have to be totally sure about the other measurements before questioning the ski.
post #3 of 14
I have a pair of Watea 84's, but the 184 length. My bsl is 327mm. I'm 6' 220, level 8, aggressive and fast.

I'll be curious to what people say in this thread. I didn't know if I should change my mounting point either. I haven't mounted yet, but I'm not sure how to calculate all the other measurements either. I will probably just go with the manufacturer mark unless I read something compelling in this thread...
post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
Thanks - you can never be too sure....

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
Double-check the CRS measurement, make sure it is based on the contact points.
I did the measurement at least three times since I couldn't believe the results either. I just did it again using the technique described on post #8 at http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=30060 - same results: CRS is 50cm in front of ski center mark.

P.S. What is the distance from the boot center mark on your 184 Watea 84's (if you still have them) to the CRS (I recognized your user name from the great Watea 84 review you did last year - thanks!)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
Double-check the CRS measurement, make sure it is based on the contact points. And *definitely* double-check the BOF measurement with your foot/boot. My BOF is 6.5cm ahead of the boot center on my 325mm Xwave 9 boots. Knowing how boot soles scale with foot size (the front and back lugs are unchanged but the middle varies) I would not expect your boots to also have a 6.5cm delta with 30mm less length in the middle.
Hmm..., that definitely might indicate an error on my part. My measurement was again based on the above post but since my shells are nearly transparent it was more straightforward. I:
  1. Placed my footbeds in the boots as centered as possible and without the liner.
  2. Placed my bare feet in the boots and on the footbeds where they fit.
  3. Pressed the inside of my foot against the shell so that my big toe knuckle can be readily seen (I've always considered this big bony protrusion a good way to locate my BoF, though that may be part of my mistake.)
  4. Measured the distance from the boot's center mark to the center of my big toe knuckle.
I did this several times generally with the same results +/-5mm. I just did it again being more careful to check that my footbed is centered in the boot, my foot is properly located on the footbed, that the footbed sits centered in the liner, that the liner sits centered in the shell, etc.

Humble Pie time (thanks skier219) - I now have a 5.5cm distance from boot center to my BoF (6cm on my 1/2 size bigger left foot and 5cm on my right). That's a lot closer to 1/2 the 30mm diff between our bsl's and hopefully now it's more realistic - your thoughts (about my new measurement, my new BoF location only 5mm in front of the CRS if using the ski's boot center mark, and, perhaps, about the original question of my binding mount location)?
post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayhawkskier View Post
I have a pair of Watea 84's, but the 184 length. My bsl is 327mm. I'm 6' 220, level 8, aggressive and fast.

I'll be curious to what people say in this thread. I didn't know if I should change my mounting point either. I haven't mounted yet, but I'm not sure how to calculate all the other measurements either. I will probably just go with the manufacturer mark unless I read something compelling in this thread...
Your's is the length that seems to be generally discussed in the thread referenced in my OP - so read those to see what you think. Measuring all these things ain't that easy and (as the above post shows) can result in significant errors. If you have the patience to try the measurements read the instructions I referenced in my above post (though take some advil first, maybe do a shot of tequila...).
post #6 of 14
Footbed should not be centered in the boot. If you examine your boot liner you'll see that the actual thickness of the heel area is not enough to worry about. Essentially the thickness of the two layers of liner material without and foam in between. Sounds as if you move your foot back the Watea position and BOF/CRS will be essentially the same.

Lou
post #7 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post
Footbed should not be centered in the boot. If you examine your boot liner you'll see that the actual thickness of the heel area is not enough to worry about. Essentially the thickness of the two layers of liner material without and foam in between. Sounds as if you move your foot back the Watea position and BOF/CRS will be essentially the same.
Lou
Hmm, no wonder there is so much confusion about this issue - measuring the boot center to BoF is very difficult! Not to argue with the expert..., but my liners are very thin overall and feel the same at both the toe and heel. When I put my foot in my boot the space between the liner and the outside of the toe is the same as that for the heel (my shells are essentially transparent, so I can readily see this).

But I could be "dead right" about this and can easily imagine that a 5mm shift (1/5th of an inch by golly) from toe to heel might occur when I am in my normal, slightly forward-flexed skiing position (which pushes the heel back and pulls the toe away from the front of the boot). Thanks Lou - it now it looks like I should consider my BoF to be 5cm from my boot center!

While my BoF now seems like it will line up with the Watea 84's CRS this still conflicts with the other posts indicating that the BoF generally is 1-2cm behind the Watea 84's running surface center when mounted at the ski's factory mark.

Does anyone out there with 167cm Watea 84's know where their BoF is vs. the ski's running surface center? Either way, any thoughts about where I should mount the bindings on my Wateas? Thanks for your continuing help with my mystery (more like a melodrama?)!
post #8 of 14
I think the best way to find the BOF is to put your foot in a ski-ready boot (ie, with liner, footbed, socks, etc) and tap the shell with a heavy pointy object (I have a ball-peen hammer that's perfect) until you locate the point where the BOF is. It's hard to mistake the tap on that part of the foot (usually it's the innermost part of your foot). Then mark that spot on the outside of the shell and compare to the midsole mark.

I guess I should add that the whole BOF/CRS method is simply to be used for additional guidance, but don't over think it. I started paying attention to this when some of my Elans felt odd on the slopes, and lo and behold they had me way ahead of CRS. I had a pair of Atomics that were impossible to get a tip-bite with, and they had me way back (5+ cm back). So I checked the skis I like, and they were all at CRS or 1-2 cm back. As long as your not ahead of CRS, you're good, and you don't want to be too far back. For a ski like the Watea, as long as you're not more than 2cm back, that's good.

My Watea 94s have my BOF exactly on CRS, and they ski great in all conditions. The 84s are 1cm back and also ski great. So I would generalize the Watea 84 and 94 by saying 0-1cm back is good for my tastes.
post #9 of 14
Thread Starter 
Thanks skier219 for both the technical guidance and psychological counseling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I think the best way to find the BOF is to put your foot in a ski-ready boot (ie, with liner, footbed, socks, etc) and tap the shell with a heavy pointy object (I have a ball-peen hammer that's perfect) until you locate the point where the BOF is. It's hard to mistake the tap on that part of the foot (usually it's the innermost part of your foot). Then mark that spot on the outside of the shell and compare to the midsole mark.
This didn't work too well for me - no matter what hammer I used or how hard I tapped I couldn't readily detect my BoF any better than say +/-10cm. I guess I'll stick with the 5cm value for now (since it seems to make sense).

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
I guess I should add that the whole BOF/CRS method is simply to be used for additional guidance, but don't over think it. I started paying attention to this when some of my Elans felt odd on the slopes, and lo and behold they had me way ahead of CRS....
My Elan's are the same reason I appear melodramatic about this whole thing - when I bought them two years ago they wouldn't ski normally until I moved the bindings +1.5cm (I luckily mounted Railflexes on them). Thanks to what I've learned from this forum I now know that this puts my BoF about 1cm behind the ski's CRS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
As long as your not ahead of CRS, you're good, and you don't want to be too far back. For a ski like the Watea, as long as you're not more than 2cm back, that's good.
And so I will stick with the ski's center mark since it worked reasonably well when I demo'd them and it puts my BoF right at the ski's CRS (which is probably a better position for a lightweight anyway).

Case closed!
post #10 of 14
Your BOF location is directly related to your footlength and asking other skiers withoutknowing their foot length and if they are in the appropriate bootlength will not help.

The best way to determine BOF location inside your shell is to have someone open the empty shell when your foot is inside and then mark the outside of the boot.

As far as your efforts go I applaud them, but if you get within 1 cm and are back you'll be fine. forward is a little wierd and more than 1 back definitely slow ski response and makes balance difficult.

Lou
post #11 of 14
all the calculations aside, i mounted mine +1 from center and I liked the way it skied....
post #12 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post
...if you get within 1 cm and are back you'll be fine. forward is a little wierd and more than 1 back definitely slow ski response and makes balance difficult.
Lou
Thanks Lou - more good advice that points towards mounting them at the ski's boot center mark!
post #13 of 14
why is forward weird? if you ski stacked and balanced, +1 puts just a touch more weight on the front of the ski's
post #14 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
all the calculations aside, i mounted mine +1 from center and I liked the way it skied....
Yeah, at this point I say calculations, schmalculations.... But I'm an engineer so it's in my genes. I took a 2nd look at your and skier219's posts from the thread I referened in my OP (now that I think I understand them better). My conclusion is that with your 307mm boot sole length this +1cm mounting puts your BoF right at the ski's center, which sounds right for the sort of soft snow 50/50 intended use of this ski.

See you in Steamboat!
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