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Excercises to improve rotary motion?

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
I'm looking for some excersises to improve rotary motion, both for myself and for the kids I'm teaching this year. Lots of you folks have a "bag of tricks" that you like to use. Care to throw some my way?
post #2 of 32
Hiya Saddle!

What a great question! With so many people on shaped skis today, I'd forgotten about exercises to develop rotary skills because we are more often focused on reducing rotary movements for people making the transition to shaped skis. So here are a couple of classics.

Ski off the ground
From a standing still position, lift one ski off the ground and turn the tip to cross over the other ski. Repeat with your other foot. This gets you used to using the muscles you need to steer the ski. Next, while traversing across the hill, pick up the uphill ski and cross it. Then, while in a turn, try lifting the inside ski and turning it so the tail crosses the other ski while above, in or just after the fall line. For extra creidt you can try standing only on the inside ski and crossing the outside ski.

Framing poles
Grab your ski poles in the middle of the pole and hold them out so that the poles make a picture frame of what you're looking at. Pick a target down the hill and keep the target in the picture frame. To do this you keep your upper body constantly facing down the fall line, while your lower body rotates back and forth.
post #3 of 32
Pick up a copy of "Come Ski With Me", by Stein ... 1966

You can also teach your kids some neat "extreme reverse shoulder" stuff.

[img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #4 of 32
don't have a name for this... It doesn't focus solely on rotary movements, but does blend them in well with other movements.

stand in the fall line. and arrange numbers 1 & 2 in a triangle:

1 is at the ski tips
2 is to the right (not at
2 is to the left

Guide the skis with the knees by moving them toward a number 2. Always return to 1 before going to the next 2.

you, or students can acheive a good rythmical 1,2,1,2,1,2 tempo of some sort.

eventually the movements can be refined into a smooth arcing motion assuring the forward as well as lateral movements.

need clarification? I can't tell if this is in any way clear.
post #5 of 32
Have a contest to see who can do the most turns from here to there and be sure you have a prize in your pocket (natch!) for the winner(s).
post #6 of 32
Saddleback- Here is a few:

In the lodge with your shoes or socks stand on 2 peices of paper 1 under each foot. Turn the legs in the hip socket while keeping the upper body still. If you see the seem of your pants on your back side turning try again. Put your thumbs just above your pant pockets and you can feel the muscle go out and in when doing it right.

With you kids have them sit on the ground in the lodge with the legs straight out have them turn the feet back and forth using the whole leg and not just the ankle. (you can have them try the first one as well)

Outside on flat terrain with your skis in a very small wedge find a line in the snow like a cat track or snowmobile line or you can make your own. Try to just point the both tips from one side of the line to the other keeping the small wedge and once again like inside keep the seem of the pants still and only turn from the legs. (harder than you think)

Pivot slips. On a groomed run find a moderate steep pitch and start side slipping down. As you are side slipping turn your ski tips all the way like a clock so they point the opposite way while still side slipping down the hill straight. Think about the indoor activity on the paper same movement.

That is a start. good luck!
post #7 of 32
for those long lift rides, have them pretend they are skiing up the hill. turn left/right with their feet while seated. This completely isolates the legs from the rest of the body. (don't reinforce this too much as it also isolates the leg from the hip where the real turning power can be had) See Todo's exercise for hip rotation but suble rotary movements at the ankles will aid in fine adjustments.

For after skiing and home fun, talk to the parents after the lesson and try to give them "permission" to run around the house in old socks on the hard wood floors and shuffle around the house sideways . (toes together, heels apart - then heels together, toes apart) or something like that. Make up some games for them to play at home this way.

Mom get's her hardwood floors cleaned in the exchange [img]smile.gif[/img]
post #8 of 32
Pivot slips. Do them all over the hill, on the flats, on the steeps, on the groomed and off. Sidehills are the toughest.
post #9 of 32
So as to make a simple definition of rotary, let's define it as one of two:
1)Twisting Rotary- where the feet are on a flat plain pivoting on an axis.
2)Secondary Rotary- where rotation of the femur in the hip socket is caused by a primary movement such as rolling the feet from edge to edge.

My first question is what is the goal of your lesson? I have never set improving rotary skills as an outcome for any student. Are the students you are going to be teaching limited in their skiing ability by deficient rotary skills? Remember that skiing is a blend of skills and it is the blending of those skills that is the most difficult to achieve.

Roto, what specifically are you doing in your drill other than having the students make turns and teaching them that turning is driven by the knees, which it is not.

Todo, you definitely have twisting rotary movements in your drill. Do you actually make turns by only twisting your feet? Why would you teach a student to do that unless you are trying to make the point that it's really tiresome and ineffiecient to make turns without any tipping to release the edges. If you're on flat terrain as you said, what is the point of the wedge? Other than making your drill more difficult without tipping off the edges.

I agree with others that pivot slips enhance rotary, but the focus should be on moving the CM down the hill and rolling the feet to release the edges in order to attain a flat ski, where the rotary movements can actually be effective. If you view pivot slips as a focus on mainly twisting rotary, you're missing what expert skiing on shaped skis is all about.

Remember that rotary skills tend to be overused with shaped skis, especially if the skier learned to ski on pencil skis. In pure carved turns, (twisting) rotary goes bye bye. In a non pure carve turn it is still only a resultant, not causitive, movement. Overused, it can result in washout of the tails and overrotation. It can also lead to skiing mediocrity.
post #10 of 32
Another attack where he "goes over to Epic and sees how long it takes to figure out I'm blowing smoke up their a..."

Nice yellow jacket over on your web page though ....

Check out the link ssh posted on Oct 31 ... shaped ski thread, follow the thread on the maggot forum under cumerritt ..

Look kid ... go do some designer drugs or something creative to pass your time. Since the folks sent you off to school ... some passive agressive tendencies perhaps?
post #11 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by MC Extreme:


Roto, what specifically are you doing in your drill other than having the students make turns and teaching them that turning is driven by the knees, which it is not.
Disagree since the moving of the knees is not generated at the knees, but from the ankles/feet and/or ball/sockets of the femurs To boot, the arcing motion of the knees can be transferred elsewhere in the body. It's just a focus people can use to change what they are doing. Giving people a focus like this just makes things simpler for them on the road to their desired outcomes.

And like anything else, it's a situational focus for certain movement patterns and certain goals.

IMO, Rotary movements are no more 'overused' on newer shaped skis than they were on less shaped skis. They are, however, the most 'misunderstood' package of movements in skiing

[ December 02, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Roto ]
post #12 of 32
I think rotary movements are becoming a lost art.

I know mine stink.

Ten years ago they were better.

I think pivot slips are the answer done in every setting imaginable from steep to flat to off piste. Do pivot slips in variable conditions and I assure you your rotary skills will shine.

I had a wonderful experience today. I took a lesson from three of my peers. Four of us went out in a group. There were no egos. We all took turns being the student and the three others lent a hand. It was an eclectic group in so far as we were all level III certs, however, one was a teli cert. The teli skier is one of the best back country skiers around and skis at warp speed, carving outrageous arcs, on long wide straight looking teli gear.

I told the group my short radius turns sucked. The three all spotted something in my stance and suggested I open my ankles more at initiation. Right away it felt as though the rotary motion in my legs had been unlocked and I quit fighting initiation. I literally began each turn merely by opening or plantar flexing my ankle.

I learned more than a simple lesson about rotary. I realized how very good the eyes of some of my peers are and I will continually seek their help.

I have often said that the instructor ranks are filled with mediocre skiers. I drove away today thinking these three guys can "turn em" and was proud to work beside them. I also wish I could ski half as well as they do and wasn't old enough to be their father.
post #13 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by therusty:
Ski off the ground
From a standing still position, lift one ski off the ground and turn the tip to cross over the other ski. Repeat with your other foot. This gets you used to using the muscles you need to steer the ski. Next, while traversing across the hill, pick up the uphill ski and cross it. Then, while in a turn, try lifting the inside ski and turning it so the tail crosses the other ski while above, in or just after the fall line. For extra creidt you can try standing only on the inside ski and crossing the outside ski.

.
I always did this against my pole for feedback???
post #14 of 32
MC Extreme quote "My first question is what is the goal of your lesson? I have never set improving rotary skills as an outcome for any student. Are the students you are going to be teaching limited in their skiing ability by deficient rotary skills? Remember that skiing is a blend of skills and it is the blending of those skills that is the most difficult to achieve."

EXCELLENT COMMENT!

Your question to me was about twisting rotary. No you do not make turns by only twisting your feet. I believe each activity I described was about twisting the whole leg and NOT just the feet. Sorry for the confusion.

Your definition of secondary rotary I can live live. In order to train the femur to turn in the hip socket you sometimes need to break it apart to isolate the activity. In high level skiing I do not generally twist the ski while flat. I do however add a rotary force from my legs to an edged ski to shape my turn. Please don't misunderstand the exercises for skiing, or how I may apply it to skiing. I will try to add some clarity to my thoughts as the last post was just some quick exercise descriptions that someone asked for but maybe I was sending them out with a loaded gun and no instructions!

HERE GOES!

Rotory has become one of the most important skills to tear down and focus on because it is really the most difficult for many to master. It is easy for people to twist from all areas of the body and to over twist most of the time. It is for this reason I have a great deal of success teaching people how to guide the skis from the legs and not to twist them from the hip or push the tails that does lead to mediocrity as you said.

As you said people need to learn to blend skills and the avoidance of teaching strong rotary application from the correct body parts continues to lead to the tail pushing. If you focus only on tipping you lead to a dead end as well for skiing any terrain off blue square, bumps, steeps, gates. We do not go around only in a pure carve turn. I have had the honor to ski with some incredible skiers over the years and never seen anyone skiing pure carved turns every where. Not in a race course, not on steeps, not in bumps, powder, trees, crud.

I think many many skiers are limited by the lack of rotary skill. The lack of correct application, timing, accuracy, duration. So I do focus on twisting of the leg with many activities and have had great success. I also focus a lot on tipping of the ski before you apply any rotary force in most situations. But we are talking about exercises to enhance the activity of rotary skills. Every exercise you do on skis has some negative element. The key is pulling what you want out of the activity and THEN properly intergrating it into SKIING!

You also asked the question about why keep the wedge in my activity. I do this so that they learn to manage the rotary while the ski is on edge. As you pointed out it is more difficult to keep the wedge while applying a rotary input from the whole leg. In a turn I want to add rotary input thru my legs while maintaning an edged ski I do not want to flatten my ski and twist it. Try the activity and see what you feel and what happens. Try it with others I think you will find it more difficult than you think and that many people can not keep the ski's in the wedge because the rotary is coming from the wrong place.

In the pivot slips you made a comment about focus on rolling the the feet to a flat ski so that the rotary can be effective. The rolling of the feet is a great key and a way to take pivot slips from a rotary activity to an edging activity. It is equally important to continue rolling the feet back onto new edges and I will often take the pivot slip right into short radius turns.

Tipping and edgeing activity's are critical to great sking. Do pure carve turns, skating, 1000 steps, traversing activities with uphill edge, downhill edge, rolling uphill edge while holding downhill edge, sidestepping up the hill, down the hill do this while moving. All these edging activities are extemely important to master as well as the rotary ones I described before. The name of the game is blending.

MC Extreme It sounds like we agree skiers need a blending of skills. We may differ on the application on how to arrive at this blending but hopefully I made my thoughts a little more clear.
post #15 of 32
*Looking at cordless drill* [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #16 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by Roto:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MC Extreme:


Roto, what specifically are you doing in your drill other than having the students make turns and teaching them that turning is driven by the knees, which it is not.
Disagree since the moving of the knees is not generated at the knees, but from the ankles/feet and/or ball/sockets of the femurs To boot, the arcing motion of the knees can be transferred elsewhere in the body. It's just a focus people can use to change what they are doing. Giving people a focus like this just makes things simpler for them on the road to their desired outcomes. </font>[/quote]Roto, if skiing starts at the feet, why focus movement from the knees. And moving from the knees does not mean active use of the feet. I can roll my knees all over the place with no tension in the feet at all. The knees can absolutely be the trigger with the feet being passive. So if you use the knees as a primary movement to change what a student is doing, what are you developing?

Many of the posters have jumped between forms of rotary without differentiating between them. Rotary movement is not as simple as the femur turning in the hip socket. Much of the rotary taught in the past was as a primary turning force, even an initiator. Rotary is a result, not a cause, of efficient skiing movements. If I roll my feet from edge to edge do I generate rotary movements? Absolutely. But it's a result of the activity of the feet, not because I'm choosing to rotate my femur.

Rusty makes my point. He said he felt his rotary movements "unlock" by "opening" (rolling) his ankles at turn initiation "(plantar flexing)". This is greatly different then generating a twisting rotational force. He simply improved the activity of his feet at initiation (by tipping, heaven forbid) and the result was a smoother blend of skills.

Forcing rotary does not improve rotary skills, it merely inhibits it's natural blending and use.
post #17 of 32
Having been in similar discussions so many times here I'm not going to add anything. Just want to say the the ideas and concepts MC Extreme is talking about match what I have learned for myself, what I see in others who are in a learning situation, what I observe when I watch or ski with very accomplished skiers, and what has worked very effectively for me in trying to help friends and family. I just haven't ever been in a situation where I saw a good reason for focusing on (twisting) rotary as a primary movement with modern shaped skis.
post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the good stuff guys. Anybody else wanna jump in? This is a great resource. I didn't expect half of the responses I got so far.
post #19 of 32
Why not do exercises to refine active leg steering? As a few have pointed out, it is not generally a component of modern high performance skiing, but not all turns have to be "high performance", do they?
We take for granted the pointing precision that we can achieve with our hands, which are designed for fine motor control. Our feet and legs need practice to get to where they can accurately move together. For my own skiing, doing pivot slips has given my skiing a precision that I never would have thought possible. Unless I am skiing at the limit of my skills, I can easily get the skis to go within a couple of inches of where I want them to go. This is most valuable in the bumps and in the trees.
I'll leave the matter of teaching this to lower level skiers to those with experience.
Using only the sidecut of the skis is great, but very limiting. It is also a very slow way of changing the path of the skis (unless they are already on a high egde).
post #20 of 32
Power plows...
Snow plow wedels....

arrrrrgggghhhh!!! enough stop already I'm having nightmares!
post #21 of 32
In a perfect world you can have refinement of the skills just by teaching people to tip the feet and femur to start the turn. The problem I find is you need to generate gross movement in order to get to refinement. Always start with the simple but for many people you need to break down each skill seperatly so they can understand how their body moves. I would be interested in MC and SI comments on how you refine and improve someone rotary skills. You said a blend is important so what happens when you don't get that blend. How do you teach people to guide the ski and not twist? I am 100% behind teaching edging skills and use of the ski but what do you do when that does not work? What do you do when someone can not make short radius turns?

The real key to expert skiing is the ability to blend un-noticable all the skills as needed in any given terrain or condition. As I said before we need to be able to turn the ski. Edge only does not work. This is true at the beginer level and the expert level. Many skiers today lack any versatility in their skiing. Groomed terrain they look good. Put them in any other condition or in a race course they lack the ability to properly apply the correct elements as needed. I believe we need to still teach rotary skills and teach active twisting thru the femurs or what we will get is twisting from the hip, upperbody or full body and that is a dead end street.

I do agree with both MC and Si that tipping of the feet and femur for turn initiation is key to good skiing and we need to teach this first we also need to teach people how to get off the edge as this is another common issue with the new shape ski skier they are unable to manage the turn and end up with a bracing downhill leg with high edge angle and over pressure and develop a lot of chatter and side skidding as the terrain gets steeper.

Skiing to me is about using the correct amount of edge and rotary while managing pressure and staying in balance. This changes from turn to turn and condition to condition depending on your desired outcome. You need to be able to do anything asked of you on skis because you never know what the mountain may dictate.
post #22 of 32
Todo, I (as a non-instructor) don't have much disagreement with your comments. The point that I understand MC making is that rotation of the hip in it's socket is rarely used in good skiing as a "primary" movement. A lot of what I interpret here is people thinking that it is important to work on it as such. This is what confuses me because a vast majority of skiers I see on the slopes need to eliminate rotary movements, even those that just come from the hips (femurs turning within the hip socket) as a primary movement, and allow "rotary" to be integrated into movements that begin with tipping at the feet. Per Miles comments, I don't think that pivot slips are a bad exercise but that's because, at least how I interpret the exercise, the focus should be on releasing the edge (a tipping movement) as the primary movement. Proportionally pivot slips may involve a bigger ratio of rotary to tipping but I think it's still the tipping that is the "primary" movement.

The distinction between guiding and twisting from my point of view is often how much tipping is used as the primary movement in intiation and throught the movement. If tipping is demonstrated and practiced properly it only helps to ensure that (secondary) rotary movements in the hips are isolated from the torso and upper body and do not lead to twisting and rotation of the pelvis, torso, and shoulders.

[ December 04, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Si ]
post #23 of 32
Si, pivot slips are a blended exercise. There is no primary aspect to it. Without releasing the edges, the skis cannot be turned easily. Without turning the skis, you are just sideslipping.
Just a thought out of left field.... could doing lots of pivot slips help improve your weak side turns? Could be worth trying.
post #24 of 32
MilesB, I'm still trying to figure out these "weak side turns." My current thinking is that it's a limitation in movement (hips and maybe foot) not strength. But I expect I'm going to try a bunch of things this year to even out the turns. Thanks for the suggestion!
post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by Todo:
How do you teach people to guide the ski and not twist? I am 100% behind teaching edging skills and use of the ski but what do you do when that does not work? What do you do when someone can not make short radius turns?


I do agree with both MC and Si that tipping of the feet and femur for turn initiation is key to good skiing and we need to teach this first we also need to teach people how to get off the edge as this is another common issue with the new shape ski skier they are unable to manage the turn and end up with a bracing downhill leg with high edge angle and over pressure and develop a lot of chatter and side skidding as the terrain gets steeper.

The simplest way to teach guiding of the skis rather than twisting is by not creating a situation where someone without the skills feels forced to twist the skis. Also by not introducing twisting rotary as an initiating or primary steering movement. Most A lessons revolve around wedging and twisting rotary in short radius turns because we want to teach survival skills. You usually end up with a blend of skills that is way out of wack with expert skiing. I use very easy terrain and slower, more patient movements to refine skill blends. Traverses with garlands to turns using gravity, patience, and smooth continuous movements. If the student feels threatened to get those skis into the fall line, the movements will become harsh and their body rigid, and will probably require a lot of rotary to turn.

You ask what I do if that doesn't work or the student can't make a short radius turn. The answer is that what I DO NOT do is to introduce compensatory movements for a deficient skill, I refine that skill. For example if I have a student who attains a flat ski by tipping to the little toe edge, but the ski is very passive or overedged (opposite ends of the spectrum), I may have them take one ski off on a flat and make sliding turns to the little toe edge by tipping to flatten and guiding the tip around. The focus of the movement is totally driven from the feet and starts with tipping. This will enhance and refine the rotary needed to guide the ski while also enhancing the blend of other skills for higher level skiing. This exercise is part of my beginner progression, so they have already done it by the time I put them on 2 skis.

The misconception is that short radius turns are somehow completely different than medium radius turns. Regardless of the shape and amount of carve, the movements are the same, with only a change in degree. If a student cannot make a short radius turn, I would contend they also have a deficiency in all their other turns. I know many upper level PSIA folks who can make short radius "swishy" turns (lots of twisting rotary), but cannot hold a carve on boilerplate. Initiation and skill blend are not adequate.

In a balanced position, simply rolling the feet progressively, whether in full carve or not, the skis will turn and the tips will lead. That's what shaped skis are designed to do. Stand sideways on the slope with the downhill ski slightly lifted. Tip that ski to the little toe while releasing the uphill edge. Continue tipping both feet and simply allow the skis to do what they are built to do. Even with my mid fat's (19m)I can complete one turn in less than 10 feet with nothing more than resulting rotary of the femur moving in the hip socket due to the rolling of the feet. Is that short radius enough?

To tie this back into where this thread started, let's use the example of the skier you talk about at the end of your post.(see quote above) Is the problem this skier is having going to be remedied by exercises or drills that focus on twisting rotary movements? Or will more twisting rotary actually cause the problem to become worse? It sounds more like the problem may be traced all the way back to turn initiation. It's very likely that an OVER active use of rotary placed them in that position to begin with.
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by milesb:
Si, pivot slips are a blended exercise. There is no primary aspect to it. Without releasing the edges, the skis cannot be turned easily. Without turning the skis, you are just sideslipping.
Just a thought out of left field.... could doing lots of pivot slips help improve your weak side turns? Could be worth trying.
The primary part is what starts the turn. Is it the rolling of the feet or the twisting rotary? Is the rotary at all effective unless the feet are first rolled? And does the rotary then become the cause of the turning or a result of what was previously done.

I just had someone challenge me about this in a clinic this week. If you are balanced with proper body positioning and release the edges, the tips will lead. You have to put yourself in an overrotated and aft position to prevent this. I had him try it and sure enough others in the group saw it right away.

I can tell right away in pivot slips if my CM is not moving properly and if I'm not tipping progressively, I need a bunch of twisting rotary at the feet to get the skis around.
post #27 of 32
Mike Sodergren (PSIA-West) many years ago shared with me some exercises that can be used to address rotary movement problems:

1.Wedge turns, emphasizing outside foot and leg steering
2.In a straight run, brush one foot out and then the other
3.Wedge turns, emphasizing steering with both legs and both feet
4.Stem turns with the uphill ski, then with the downhill ski
5.Stem step turns of different radii
6.Skate-step (scissor) turns of -different radii
7.Use only the upper body to turn the skis
8.Use only the lower body to turn the skis
9.Use rotation of the whole body to turn skis, then isolate rotation of shoulders, then the hips. Experiment with both split and blocked rotation
10.Use counter-rotation to turn the skis
11.Hockey slips out of the fall line, then linked using up-motion "braquage"
12.Linked hop turns - turn with tails only off the snow; then with tips off, then by lifting the whole ski
13.Linked hop turns - with different amounts of pivot displacement across fall line
14.The "clock face" hop - i.e., skis across the fall line (9 o'clock - 3 o'clock), then trying 10 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 1 o'clock, etc. as pivot angles
15.Wedge change-ups
16.360-degree slip turns
17.Wedge edge-hops (narrow to wide displacement)
18."Charleston" swing hops
19.Linked hop turns on one ski only, then switching skis
20.Flat ski "wedeln" turns - quick pivots
21."Slow dog noodle" on small moguls
22.A specific number of turns within a specified distance
23.Wedge "crabs" - i.e., using hands on knees to direct steering of legs and skis
24.Emphasize inside leg and ski steering in wedge turns
25."Patience" or "do-nothing" turns from traverse
26.Hop turns to an uphill christie using several steered hops in one long arc
27.Put ski pole against tip and feel turning muscles in thigh and lower leg (inward and outward)
28.Place poles across back of knees, then link short turns
29.Stem the outside ski outward several times during an uphill christie or turn
30.Ultra slow-motion parallel
31.500 steps toward the fall line, then christie uphill
32.Christie downhill, and do 500 steps through the finish
33.Use pushes to start the rotary impulse of a new turn
34.Practice anticipation with release principle
35.Box turns - try to make turns that are square in shape
36.Short turns with lower body emphasis, then with active upper body counter rotation
37.Lift the inside ski tip and point it in the direction of the turn
38.Ski different turn shapes; e.g., Z-shaped, hook, comma, semicircle, box shapes, and so forth
post #28 of 32
OH MY GOD.

How about taping up your arms and legs and having a friend hit you over the head with a shovel until he gets tired.

[ December 04, 2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: MC Extreme ]
post #29 of 32
MC, what if you start pivot slips from pointing straight down the fall line, like I usually do?

[ December 04, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: milesb ]
post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by MC Extreme:
The primary part is what starts the turn. Is it the rolling of the feet or the twisting rotary? Is the rotary at all effective unless the feet are first rolled? And does the rotary then become the cause of the turning or a result of what was previously done.[/quote]

Perhaps a more salient question is what is/are the dominant skill(s) in pivot slips? Semantics can be such a pain in the *ss.

A minimal edge release (this is after all a slipping exercise and your skis shouldn't be overly edged to begin with or you won't slip) that permits the skis to flatten which then allows them to be turned 180 degrees (I smell rotaion of the legs here) or maybe a balanced, centered position that allows you to maintain a straight line as you slip down the chosen corridor in the execution of this drill or possibly a blend of all the above with none being dominant. It will be interesting to hear comments.

The simple is complex and the complex simple.

[/quote]I just had someone challenge me about this in a clinic this week. If you are balanced with proper body positioning and release the edges, the tips will lead. .[/QB][/quote]

Take it a step farther-where do they lead to and why.
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