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Upward release of Salomon toe

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
Last year I started to get occasional inadvertent UPWARD releases from my Salomon toepieces. If I took a jump with my weight too far back, for example, I might pop out of one toepiece upon landing.

This was never a problem before in my 10 years with various models of Salomons.

The twist setting is just fine-- I can twist out with the proper amount of force. I'm not twisting out too easily in the course of my normal rough skiing.

I'd like to tighten the binding's upward release setting, but it ain't possible. One can't adjust the upward release separately from the twist release. One has to accept the ratio of upward-release-force to twist-release-force that Salomon chooses.

I closely examined the toe of my Flexons and wings on the toepiece. They look scuffed, but unworn.

So perhaps the toepiece is worn inside-- getting old and sloppy. (And who isn't? I'm over 50). It's a mostly plastic model, the 810ti.

I'm starting to conclude that if this pattern continues, I'll have to replace the bindings, eventhough they appear to be fully functional otherwise.

When considering a replacement (Salomon, of course, since they're the easiest to get on in powder and are pretty light), I wonder if I should seek a certain model with a ratio of upward-to-twist release force more suited to my skiing style.

Question: does anyone know if some Salomons have a higher ratio than other models?

Or does anyone have a different analysis?
post #2 of 10
(A) Modify your landing technique. Backseat landings are among the most common culprits in ACL sprains.

(B) The Salomon driver toe does not have a mechanical upward toe release. You are getting what is called an "escape" meaning your boot manages to get out of the system despite no upward release mechanism. This is caused by the heelpiece travelling far enough back on it's track to enable the boot to slip out of the cup. This can be exacerbated by excessive flex in the the binding baseplate.

Solution is probably a binding with a heavier forward pressure spring such as a 912 or 914 or similar model from Look/Rossi.

But don't forget (A)

SJ
post #3 of 10
x2 in what Jim said, make sure the forward pressure is set correct and work in the landings, better to have the binding release than your ACL. it would be a good idea to bring it into a shop and have them set the bindings properly for you, if there IS a spring failure, it could be a warranty issue. Oh, and get your hands forward on the landings, it could help with your weight being back.
post #4 of 10
Thread Starter 
Thank you SJ and PP, for your mechanical analysis.

Now that y'all have said that, it does seem obvious that Salomon didn't design upward release into the toe. Close examination reveals that the hardware is too simple to have such a feature designed into it. At least nothing on the toepiece moves to release the boot upward.

On the other hand, it's conceivable that Salomon DID intend upward release at the toepiece. It could be accomplished by a subtler design: a bit of bevel on the underside of the wings of the toe combined with rearward travel of the boot controlled by the forward pressure from the heel piece. As an amateur engineer, this seems unreliable, and it confounds decisions about how much forward pressure to have, but it's interesting to contemplate the possibility.

As for advice about skiing technique, thanks but no thanks. Obviously no one intends to land with the weight too far back, but skiing in such a careful manner as to NEVER have this happen is not for me!

If I never land wrong nor have falls or near-falls, it's a sign of timid skiing-- holding back. I should be going faster or finding more challenging terrain features.

Simply put, if I ski all day without falling, it's proof of a mediocre day.

Hmmm... on the other hand, I AM over 50 now, and such behavior is potentially self-limiting in a Darwinian sense.
post #5 of 10
Best of luck.

SJ
post #6 of 10
Good luck to you and your knees with that kind of attitude... But, seriously, you may consider switching to LOOK binding, they are supposed to have a lot of elastic travel. Be careful though becuase they do have upward release designed in them. Sollies do not. Marker toes claim to have it, but they do not either (their toe releases upwards only after you twist sideways some). LOOKs are highly recommended, both from personal experience and the prevaling opinion on this board.

Alex



Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmaster View Post
Thank you SJ and PP, for your mechanical analysis.

Now that y'all have said that, it does seem obvious that Salomon didn't design upward release into the toe. Close examination reveals that the hardware is too simple to have such a feature designed into it. At least nothing on the toepiece moves to release the boot upward.

On the other hand, it's conceivable that Salomon DID intend upward release at the toepiece. It could be accomplished by a subtler design: a bit of bevel on the underside of the wings of the toe combined with rearward travel of the boot controlled by the forward pressure from the heel piece. As an amateur engineer, this seems unreliable, and it confounds decisions about how much forward pressure to have, but it's interesting to contemplate the possibility.

As for advice about skiing technique, thanks but no thanks. Obviously no one intends to land with the weight too far back, but skiing in such a careful manner as to NEVER have this happen is not for me!

If I never land wrong nor have falls or near-falls, it's a sign of timid skiing-- holding back. I should be going faster or finding more challenging terrain features.

Simply put, if I ski all day without falling, it's proof of a mediocre day.

Hmmm... on the other hand, I AM over 50 now, and such behavior is potentially self-limiting in a Darwinian sense.
post #7 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmaster View Post
Thank you SJ and PP, for your mechanical analysis.

Now that y'all have said that, it does seem obvious that Salomon didn't design upward release into the toe. Close examination reveals that the hardware is too simple to have such a feature designed into it. At least nothing on the toepiece moves to release the boot upward.
Actually, if you look at the pin in front if the AFD you can see the basis of the design

Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmaster View Post
On the other hand, it's conceivable that Salomon DID intend upward release at the toepiece. It could be accomplished by a subtler design: a bit of bevel on the underside of the wings of the toe combined with rearward travel of the boot controlled by the forward pressure from the heel piece. As an amateur engineer, this seems unreliable, and it confounds decisions about how much forward pressure to have, but it's interesting to contemplate the possibility.
The Driver toe is designed to have upward compensation, but not upward release. Where the difference lies is that it takes a percentage of lateral force in a rearward twisting fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crudmaster View Post
As for advice about skiing technique, thanks but no thanks. Obviously no one intends to land with the weight too far back, but skiing in such a careful manner as to NEVER have this happen is not for me!

If I never land wrong nor have falls or near-falls, it's a sign of timid skiing-- holding back. I should be going faster or finding more challenging terrain features.

Simply put, if I ski all day without falling, it's proof of a mediocre day.

Hmmm... on the other hand, I AM over 50 now, and such behavior is potentially self-limiting in a Darwinian sense.
No one said that this is the way you intended to land, yes it does happen "landing back", I just gave a suggestion that might help. As far as a mediocre day of skiing in not falling, well, I can go a week + w/o falling and still have many days of fantastic skiing. I don't consider it a bad round of golf if I don't slice, miss a putt or loose a ball in the woods.
post #8 of 10
Crudmaster, what is your normal DIN setting and what was it before you turned 50. When I turned fifty the shops started setting my DIN at 7, instead of 8 1/2. That was a huge difference and way too low for skiing moguls and crud. I cranked my 912Ti's on my Beasts back up to 8.5 since I use them a lot in both.

Also, if your DIN is over 7 1/2 I'm not sure you should be on the 810Ti. I've always heard you want to be in the mid-range of the binding's DIN range for best performance.
post #9 of 10
Thread Starter 
You guessed it, Rio. I'm 150 lbs. and ski at 8-1/2, but I don't mind when they set it at 7 on demo day.

Everyone's style of skiing and their muscle and ligament strengths vary, so ski shops cannot know the best DIN setting. The only RELIABLE way to set release tension is by skiing with the DIN too low, then tighten it a notch if the bindings release too often. This will result in the lowest DIN setting with an acceptable amount of questionable releases. And this DIN setting will be the safest acceptable setting. Only racers and young fools should risk a higher setting, in my opinion.

I've also learned that I can test the twist release setting while standing with only one ski on. I throw my body into a twist and it should take a lot of effort and, if the DIN is correct for me, it's difficult enough that it takes more than one attempt to come out.

As for the forward release, if, while wearing one ski, I am able to throw my forward with enough force to come out, it's probably a little to loose. Obviously this standing test doesn't work well for forward release.

And Phil, what is "Driver toe"?
post #10 of 10
Driver Toe - is a condition frequently suffered by NASCAR drivers. Very painful inflamation of the big toe caused by only turning left.


Seriously, it's the name of one of Salomon's toe designs (810 amongst them).
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