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Knee alignment during squats- correlated to on hill?

post #1 of 21
11/13/08 at 9:11am
Thread Starter 
Getting a bit of bowleggedness in the right leg during squats, the knee tracks outwards. There is discomfort and soreness under the knee cap if I attempt to correct it by pointing the knee inwards.

Will this reappear on the hill?
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post #2 of 21
11/13/08 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Getting a bit of bowleggedness in the right leg during squats, the knee tracks outwards. There is discomfort and soreness under the knee cap if I attempt to correct it by pointing the knee inwards.

Will this reappear on the hill?
Keep your knee aligned with your toes,do not let them track inwards at all,bad things happen.
Will this appear on the hill? I'll say no,2 different movements
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post #3 of 21
11/13/08 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
Hmm, badly phrased perhaps. I think they track straight, I look down and that one knee is playing cowboy. I put it where I think it should be (over toes, pointing front) and the undercap ache occurs.

BTW this is recent, last 3 months.
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post #4 of 21
11/13/08 at 10:05am
Is your weight on your heels ? As you squat think of a few things.
1-Weight on the heels
2-Actively pull your self down into the squat,don't just drop.
3-Spread the floor with your heels, keep some outward pressure on your knees keeping them from diving in.
4-Keep on your heels.
5- maintain your lumbar curve

If your still having trouble lighten the load. Squats are to important not to do.But they must be done safely.
Also when squating there is not a single muscle that should be relaxing,you should engage them all
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post #5 of 21
11/13/08 at 10:26am
PSIA-E offered a dryland session this fall on Functional Movement Screen (see www.functionalmovement.com). There is also an article in last winter's Pro Skier on this issue. The idea is that several movement exercises can point out kinks and compensatory movment that can be seen on the hill (or in any sport). One of the movements to look at is the squat. Tight hips can cause the femur to move outward. Sometimes the funky squat posture can be caused by failure to flex ankle joints as much as they need to be -- we all know how that translates in skiing. Check out the website -- there's good information as well as corrective exercises available.
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post #6 of 21
11/13/08 at 11:34am
Here's some air squat mechanics. These ladies are friggin fit

Air squat is a good place to start. I would say that feet pointing out may help your problem. Take a look at their placement.


http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C..._AirSquats.wmv

The knee should track outward.
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post #7 of 21
11/13/08 at 2:40pm
If you're using weight, try to squat without weight.
If it doesn't happen when you are squatting without any weight slowly add weight until it happens again... then, do squats with as much weight as you can handle without causing the problem.
Doing exercises without weight (maybe 1 set) before really lifting will give you an idea of where you body wants to go naturally. You shouldn't be lifting so much weight that its changing your form.
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post #8 of 21
11/13/08 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Here's some air squat mechanics. These ladies are friggin fit

Air squat is a good place to start. I would say that feet pointing out may help your problem. Take a look at their placement.


http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C..._AirSquats.wmv

The knee should track outward.
Nice little video-we are all trying to eliminate the butt wink at our affiliate.Hard to do!
And by the way-the guys aren't bad either!! ii
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post #9 of 21
11/13/08 at 4:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcarey View Post
Hard to do!
And by the way-the guys aren't bad either!! ii
I was working hard not to, today. I watched the vid and then it was on my mind when I did back squats.

I didn't see any guys in that vid
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post #10 of 21
11/14/08 at 7:27am
Most people are going to have some slight evidence of a butt wink, despite their neuromuscular coordination and range of flexibility. The closed-pack joint biomechanics and ligaments of the iliofemoral joints and lumbosacral/sacroiliac joints won't allow the pelvis to stay "level" in most people when the hips drop below the patella.

So don't feel frustrated if you can't eliminate it completely. But keep trying!
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post #11 of 21
11/14/08 at 11:14am
Thread Starter 
This is extremely frustrating.

Post gone and problem unsolved.
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post #12 of 21
11/14/08 at 1:14pm
Comprex,I am not a physician so take this for what it is worth.Maybe you have weakness somewhere or the patella does not align properly.Whether it appears in your skiing remains to be seen,but a good alignment specialist should be able to help if it does occur while skiing.
Hope fully Baja can jump in here again and answer your questions WAY better than I!

T
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post #13 of 21
11/14/08 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcarey View Post
Comprex,I am not a physician so take this for what it is worth.Maybe you have weakness somewhere or the patella does not align properly.Whether it appears in your skiing remains to be seen,but a good alignment specialist should be able to help if it does occur while skiing.
Hope fully Baja can jump in here again and answer your questions WAY better than I!
Sorry, but I can't answer it any better than tcarey!

As always, it's difficult or impossible to give proper answers or advice without a complete analysis in person. And a complete analysis includes more than just the knee:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...027#post986027
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post #14 of 21
11/14/08 at 1:45pm
Thread Starter 
I am wondering if it's related to just plain more sitting at work.

weight is on heels - check
knees not falling inwards - they never did
less weight - yes, the weight is now ~80 lbs less than it was in August
single-foot squats - RK tracks over toes
two-foot squats - RK tracks ~2 inches out from toes at full dip (laterally) without pain. I can -make- it track over toes and that's what causes the ache/soreness/tweaky pain.

That's the knee that had MCL issues 2 years ago so weakness is easily assumed, but why would it appear with no triggering event? The difference between the one-foot and two-foot situation makes me easily believe the problem is not necessarily in the knee.

Not ITB, had that, this feels different.
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post #15 of 21
11/20/08 at 4:04pm
Where are your toes pointing during the weighted squats? They should be pointed outwards roughly ~30 degrees. When you are squatting heavy, for most people, it is a battle to get the knees out over the toes as the weight causes them to collapse inward (stress on the hip adductors I assume).

If you sit all day at work (I do) you probably have weak glutes. Try some glute activation drills before squatting/deadlifting to 'wake up' your butt and use it more. Here's a good link:

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-optimi...te-activation/

I usually do ~20 suppine bridges and maybe 10 bird-dogs as part of my warm-up in addition to a bunch of dynamic hamstring stuff and samson stretches (static) for hip flexors.
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post #16 of 21
11/21/08 at 8:59am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh View Post
Where are your toes pointing during the weighted squats? They should be pointed outwards roughly ~30 degrees.
They're usually a bit less veed out than that, m'be half that.

Quote:
When you are squatting heavy, for most people, it is a battle to get the knees out over the toes as the weight causes them to collapse inward (stress on the hip adductors I assume).
Right.

What I'm saying is I have the opposite problem, -one- knee tracks wider than the toes. I can do the weight fine that way.

If I bring it inwards and try to correct it, that's painful.


Quote:
http://stronglifts.com/how-to-optimi...te-activation/

I usually do ~20 suppine bridges and maybe 10 bird-dogs as part of my warm-up in addition to a bunch of dynamic hamstring stuff and samson stretches (static) for hip flexors.

Thanks.
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post #17 of 21
11/25/08 at 4:42pm
I still consider myself a novice in training and haven't encountered anyone in person or online who has had that issue (knees falling outwards) so I can't give any advice other than maybe play around with different stances like

a) Feet wider than shoulder width
b) wider angle on both feet
c) wider angle on just the side where the knee is falling out
d) narrower angle on side with knee out (I think this would be wrong, but maybe try it with light weight to see)

For some physiological reason you might need your feet at different angles.
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post #18 of 21
11/25/08 at 4:53pm
Lots of men have bowlegged issues just as lots of women have knock knee issues (the difference is due to our very different pelvises) and yes it can affect your skiing. Just as you can't do squats without pain if you try to "fix" your bowleg it is also very awkward for me to try to get my knock knees out when exercising (there are exercises I can do to strengthen hip muscles to help this but that only goes so far).

BUT you can go to a bootfitter and have him get you aligned in your ski boots. I guarantee a good bootfitter has seen issues like yours. This should help a lot.
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post #19 of 21
11/26/08 at 8:03am
Thread Starter 
I think when I started this thread I was primarily interested what in hip exercises I could do, esp. as this has only shown up since August, and it's only that one knee.

I do not remotely relish changing every boot and every skate setup (and then, hopefully, back again) .

Need will as need must.
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post #20 of 21
11/26/08 at 9:48am
Related issue---

Be sure to build the hamstrings at the same time you're building the quads. The fronts and backs of the legs...and other parts of the body...must be built up together and remain balanced, in this case for added knee health.

Relating to alignment...I do better with my everyday orthotics in my excercise shoes, and of course, with my orthotic footbeds in my ski boots. What you're seeing might indicate a benefit from everyday orthotics.
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post #21 of 21
11/26/08 at 10:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
Be sure to build the hamstrings at the same time you're building the quads. The fronts and backs of the legs...and other parts of the body...must be built up together and remain balanced, in this case for added knee health.
Sure.

Quote:
Relating to alignment...I do better with my everyday orthotics in my excercise shoes, and of course, with my orthotic footbeds in my ski boots. What you're seeing might indicate a benefit from everyday orthotics.
Hmm, maybe it's time to ditch the shooz, they are only rated for ~3months use anyway. New in August, not so much now. Hmm.

That might just be one of the straws in that camel-load.
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