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Release, transfer, engage, or...

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Transfer, release, engage?

From reading the "inside ski use" thread and the original article, what I'm thinking is if the R-T-E sequence we normally speaking is wrong? Maybe we need define "release/transfer" clear, if they're what like my understanding, release means put ski off edge and flat on snow, and transfer means move your weight from old stance leg to new stance ski. Then what we see from the article and videos is the skier should move his weight to new stance leg(old inside ski) prior to release old edges. The real sequence is: transfer weight to inside ski, release old edges, engage new edges. Acturally when the skier was in "neutral" position, his weight has been transfered to his old inside leg already, so he could lift his new inside ski. Am I wrong?
post #2 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
Transfer, release, engage?

From reading the "inside ski use" thread and the original article, what I'm thinking is if the R-T-E sequence we normally speaking is wrong? Maybe we need define "release/transfer" clear, if they're what like my understanding, release means put ski off edge and flat on snow, and transfer means move your weight from old stance leg to new stance ski. Then what we see from the article and videos is the skier should move his weight to new stance leg(old inside ski) prior to release old edges. The real sequence is: transfer weight to inside ski, release old edges, engage new edges. Acturally when the skier was in "neutral" position, his weight has been transfered to his old inside leg already, so he could lift his new inside ski. Am I wrong?
Im not familiar with the other thread or the videos but the relese does not necessarily mean "edge". It usually means "CoM". You relese your CoM by flexing your outside ski. This will not take it off its edge. You will still be trawelling along your edge but your CoM has started to move across. Your last sentence seems to back this theory up so I have to say that you are right.
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks! One of the video I mentioned is the one you posted in this thread. It's obvious the skier transfered his CoM far ahead he released old edge. So the "neutral postion" with two skis flat, two feet weight evenly really doesn't exist. The two legs move coherently, but not simultaneously, as bigE said, like walking movement. That makes more sense.
post #4 of 21
Commonly, neutral with equally weighted skis flat on the snow is positioning that the skier passes through between turns, not a spot to stop and watch the scenery from. You'd have to be looking pretty carefully to spot the skis flat, the body square, etc. because it's just a microsecond in the process.
post #5 of 21
Vansnow, you are right. The square position with equally weighted skis at trancition cero is not happening in dynamic skiing. It could happen but its no target if its not intentional lets say for a drills sake or just a coinsident.

You should ski with a bit of upper body counter also at the end of your turns and this counter turns into anticipation as you relese your downhill ski and transfer your weight onto your uphill ski. At this point your skis have not passed flat and your skis have not yet crossed under your hips. Note that you might be doing all of this severely unweighted as demonstrated by Cuche and Grandi. Even totally unweighted as they fly through the transition in the air. In that sence both skis ARE EAQUALLY weighted .
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks again, and also Brownson, for all the comments.

TDK, so what do you mean "counter"? Counterbalance, or counteracting? I guess both? When you counteract (facing outside of turn), you will also naturally send your hip forward, and that cause counterbalance more easily. Haven't had chance to ski yet, I was playing inline skating recently to catch some feeling of "sliding" to warm up. The movement was very similiar in skating.
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
Thanks again, and also Brownson, for all the comments.

TDK, so what do you mean "counter"? Counterbalance, or counteracting? I guess both? When you counteract (facing outside of turn), you will also naturally send your hip forward, and that cause counterbalance more easily. Haven't had chance to ski yet, I was playing inline skating recently to catch some feeling of "sliding" to warm up. The movement was very similiar in skating.
Counter is the same as upper body counter and counteracting. Counteracting is a movement but it produces upper body counter or simply counter as some call it. Counter balance is a movement bending sideways at the hip also referred to as angulation. Counter balance and counter action are pmts movements. Technically speaking counter action moves your hips forwards but more precise in a circle motion to the side assuming that forward is the way your skis are headding and not where your upper body is facing. I dont think counter acting makes counter balancing easier. They are separate movements. Be aware that you can mistacingly be compensating counter balance with counter action. Yes, movements on scates are the same as on skis. Very close anyway.
post #8 of 21
vansnow,

The timing of the transfer of weight ski to ski is less important then first flattening and then reengaging the skis on the new edge. This causes the Com to move directionally into the new turn more effectively. The weight transfer happens as the building forces demand as the new turn develops.

RW
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
I was playing inline skating recently to catch some feeling of "sliding" to warm up.
Just to share some experience. inline could be very deceptive if you take it as an ski trainning device. HarbCarver is a better bet when you can do inline.
post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Counter is the same as upper body counter and counteracting. Counteracting is a movement but it produces upper body counter or simply counter as some call it. Counter balance is a movement bending sideways at the hip also referred to as angulation. Counter balance and counter action are pmts movements. Technically speaking counter action moves your hips forwards but more precise in a circle motion to the side assuming that forward is the way your skis are headding and not where your upper body is facing. I dont think counter acting makes counter balancing easier. They are separate movements. Be aware that you can mistacingly be compensating counter balance with counter action. Yes, movements on scates are the same as on skis. Very close anyway.
The terms are only the ways to describe the phenomenons. Yes, I have read some pmts books and found them very helpful. But I don't think pmts is a really different technique, just look the things in different way, and has different emphases on the tec details. Sending hip "forward" I meant the direction of skiing and a circle motion is more accurate. While what I said "help counter balance" or angulation is also I can see in other "techniques", one of them even is Bode Miller's Sportcool video "Skiing Carving", which said "move inside ski forward and clear the space for hip dropping down." That helps angulation, doesn't it? Yeah, that's opposite to pull back foot theory but still a different way or angle to look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
vansnow,

The timing of the transfer of weight ski to ski is less important then first flattening and then reengaging the skis on the new edge. This causes the Com to move directionally into the new turn more effectively. The weight transfer happens as the building forces demand as the new turn develops.

RW
Thanks. Yes last season maybe one of important things I learnt was how to flatten skis on snow. But people always think the things he still lacks will be more important. These days I happened to be thinking about CoM movement and learnt new things I wasn't awared before.

Carver, thanks for recommending, but I'm not going to do ski training on rollers. We don't have a suitable sloping street to do DH turns.
post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post

Am I wrong?
Why yes, you are!

It's wrong to think it happens one way or the other.

You can transfer your weight as your first move from ski to ski, followed by early edge engagement to the "wrong edge/little toe edge". The skis then flatten momentarily and you head to the new turn. (the release)

OR

You can release as your first move and allow the CM to cross over the skis and begin to engage the new inside edge on the dominant ski and transfer weight to it.

Both work.
post #12 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Why yes, you are!

...

Both work.
Got it!
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Why yes, you are!

It's wrong to think it happens one way or the other.

You can transfer your weight as your first move from ski to ski, followed by early edge engagement to the "wrong edge/little toe edge". The skis then flatten momentarily and you head to the new turn. (the release)

OR

You can release as your first move and allow the CM to cross over the skis and begin to engage the new inside edge on the dominant ski and transfer weight to it.

Both work.
Something fishy in your posting..... hmmmm IMO you have described two ways of doing the exact same thing. When you transfer your weight as your first move you also relese your CoM at the same time.
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Something fishy in your posting..... hmmmm IMO you have described two ways of doing the exact same thing. When you transfer your weight as your first move you also relese your CoM at the same time.
Sorry tdk, I have to disagree.

It is the transfer of weight (ski to ski) to what will become the new dominant ski that signals the CM to begin its move to the new turn.

The first way is more like the inside leg extension type turn Rick talked about a lot in another thread.

The second way is a bit more like.....uh.....(reading at that other place)
post #15 of 21
There often are two (or even more) different ways of obtaining the same result, TDK6.

And it's possible to shift weight from one ski to the other without altering significantly the position of the COM.

Listen to UL.
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
Sorry tdk, I have to disagree.

It is the transfer of weight (ski to ski) to what will become the new dominant ski that signals the CM to begin its move to the new turn.

The first way is more like the inside leg extension type turn Rick talked about a lot in another thread.

The second way is a bit more like.....uh.....(reading at that other place)
Still dont really get it but if you say so..... I guess it boils down to what you define as a relese. Maybe somebody else will step in and explain it to me better because I fail to see your point.
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post
There often are two (or even more) different ways of obtaining the same result, TDK6.

And it's possible to shift weight from one ski to the other without altering significantly the position of the COM.

Listen to UL.
Ok, I see what you mean. Still UL's explanation brought ants into my head (arctic expression). I have been under the impression that when you shift your weight from your downhill ski to the inside ski you will relese your CoM at the same time. I could be wrong offcourse.
post #18 of 21
If you move your balance point onto the new ski, you stay in the turn. If you don't you will release the CM.
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
If you move your balance point onto the new ski, you stay in the turn. If you don't you will release the CM.
I was thinking of a turn ending where the outside leg flex would relese the CoM from the turn. At the same time weight would have been transfered to the inside ski. To hold on to the turn while shifting weight to the inside ski is entirely different. I stand corrected.
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I was thinking of a turn ending where the outside leg flex would relese the CoM from the turn. At the same time weight would have been transfered to the inside ski.
OLR. If the old inside leg doesn't accept the job you be headin for the snow.

OLR hands over duties,,, ILE snatches them away. Both end up at the same place,,, force driven penduluming over the old inside foot.
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
OLR. If the old inside leg doesn't accept the job you be headin for the snow.

OLR hands over duties,,, ILE snatches them away. Both end up at the same place,,, force driven penduluming over the old inside foot.
Sorry but am I right or am I right?
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