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Mounting Bindings

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
A have a few questions about mounting bindings (atomic 9.18 ski and an ESS binding):

1. What do you use to fill the old holes (Epoxy)?
2. What's the recommended minumum space between existing holes and new holes (~0.75cm) in a ski?
3. What makes a mounting drill bit different from a normal metal drill bit?
4. What do you use to seal the new screws with the ski top plate (Epoxy)?
5. For mounting a binding to a riser plate do you use eg. epoxy or just torque the screws?

Please spare the 'take it to a shop comments'.
Thanks
post #2 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamar_air View Post
A have a few questions about mounting bindings (atomic 9.18 ski and an ESS binding):

1. What do you use to fill the old holes (Epoxy)?
2. What's the recommended minumum space between existing holes and new holes (~0.75cm) in a ski?
3. What makes a mounting drill bit different from a normal metal drill bit?
4. What do you use to seal the new screws with the ski top plate (Epoxy)?
5. For mounting a binding to a riser plate do you use eg. epoxy or just torque the screws?

Please spare the 'take it to a shop comments'.

Thanks

Well if you have to ask that many questions...
post #3 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamar_air View Post
A have a few questions about mounting bindings (atomic 9.18 ski and an ESS binding):

1. What do you use to fill the old holes (Epoxy)?
2. What's the recommended minumum space between existing holes and new holes (~0.75cm) in a ski?
3. What makes a mounting drill bit different from a normal metal drill bit?
4. What do you use to seal the new screws with the ski top plate (Epoxy)?
5. For mounting a binding to a riser plate do you use eg. epoxy or just torque the screws?

Please spare the 'take it to a shop comments'.
Thanks
Does that ski not have a factory mounted plate on it???
post #4 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamar_air View Post
A have a few questions about mounting bindings (atomic 9.18 ski and an ESS binding):

1. What do you use to fill the old holes (Epoxy)?
2. What's the recommended minumum space between existing holes and new holes (~0.75cm) in a ski?
3. What makes a mounting drill bit different from a normal metal drill bit?
4. What do you use to seal the new screws with the ski top plate (Epoxy)?
5. For mounting a binding to a riser plate do you use eg. epoxy or just torque the screws?

Please spare the 'take it to a shop comments'.
Thanks
1. Hole plugs (the kind found in a ski shop or at www.tognar.com) with a little glue. Epoxy will work okay, though.
2. Minimum of 1 cm from hole center to hole center.
3. Drill bits are of different diameter & depth. Metal topsheet in the skis require 4.1mm bit followed by a tap. No metal 3.5mm. Both are usually 9mm deep(again, see tognar for a visual & help.)
4. Epoxy works great. A non-water soluble glue like Roo Glue works fine, too.
5. A little glue will lube the screw and make for a tighter seal.

There are many more variances than this. My guess (and just an educated guess) is that you did take them to a shop and they said they can't work on ESS bindings anymore. There's a reason for this. You're on your own.
post #5 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Does that ski not have a factory mounted plate on it???
No it doesn't.
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phirley View Post
1. Hole plugs (the kind found in a ski shop or at www.tognar.com) with a little glue. Epoxy will work okay, though.
2. Minimum of 1 cm from hole center to hole center.
3. Drill bits are of different diameter & depth. Metal topsheet in the skis require 4.1mm bit followed by a tap. No metal 3.5mm. Both are usually 9mm deep(again, see tognar for a visual & help.)
4. Epoxy works great. A non-water soluble glue like Roo Glue works fine, too.
5. A little glue will lube the screw and make for a tighter seal.

There are many more variances than this. My guess (and just an educated guess) is that you did take them to a shop and they said they can't work on ESS bindings anymore. There's a reason for this. You're on your own.
Thanks a lot Phirley!

I don't think the 9.18 has a metal top. So most likely the 3.5mm's - then they're self-tapping?

Another thing i'm wondering about is Epoxy is very ridgid after cured and since a fair bit of flexing takes place in the ski I thought something else like contact cement may work better since it flexes. Perhaps the Epoxy prevents flex around the screw allowing it to hold better? Any input on this would also be greatly appreciated!

Thanks guys
post #7 of 28
More than likely yes to the self tapping. A wood glue would be a better alternative or a slow set epoxy. Fast set epoxy is too brittle.
post #8 of 28
I use aprodict called "Gorrilla Glue" to add to old holes and plugs as well as new ones. It expands as it cures and is rock solid, and yet still flexible.
post #9 of 28
If the Ess bindings aren't easy to position on the skis to mark the holes, pre-mount the bindings on a 2x4, be sure the boots fit just right, then make a cardboard template to transfer the screw hole positions to your skis. It is very smart to tap the holes with the special #12AB tap. Even with a fiberglass top sheet, tapping the holes may result in better screw retention...less chance of a screw pulling out.

2--The rule of thumb is that one would like the new holes to be three hole diameters from the old holes. A bit closer usually works.

3--A standard drill bit very close to the metric dimensions shown with a drill-stop collar or extreme care to get the depth right is OK. A light countersink on the hole is good.

5--the screws aren't torqued, they're just tightened pretty tight.
post #10 of 28
Good advice here. I would recommend buying a ski specific bit, and a tap. It makes life much easier and is a small price to pay to get it right.

I just use regular wood glue. I think the kind I have is tite-bond. Most glues will work fine. I probably wouldn't use epoxy, but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt anything.
post #11 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by krp8128 View Post
Well if you have to ask that many questions...
Everyone has to learn somehow.... That is WHY he's asking the questions.
post #12 of 28
Awesome advice from SoftSnowGuy, especially regarding the tap. Unless the topsheet is very soft, I always cut the holes with a #12AB tap. This also eliminates the need to countersink the top of the hole.

If you give the screws a slight counter-clockwise twist to start, you can feel the threads engage in the tapped hole -- then screw in clockwise.

9/64" is close to 3.5mm

5/32" is close to 4.1mm

As far as templates go, my favorite trick is to use a computer scanner to get a full-scale picture of the bottom of the binding, including screw holes. Then, either print it straight out for a basic template, or use a CAD/graphics program to create a full-on template (which can also include reference lines, centering marks, and boot sole scales).
post #13 of 28
Some good advice.

Trust me, seeing how you have never done this before, I highly recommend you leave this to the pros.

However if you must... Don't play around with drill bits get these and you will thank me when you don't drill through your ski or too deep. If you are going to save the $30+ bucks, you can afford the $12. I concur with the gorilla glue. The tap is a must in my opinion. However make sure after you drill that you flip the ski over and bang out all of the dust from the holes.

Be careful not to over tighten. If you do, then you will either strip the screw or punch into the base. Be careful and measure and re-measure at least three times.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
As far as templates go, my favorite trick is to use a computer scanner to get a full-scale picture of the bottom of the binding, including screw holes. Then, either print it straight out for a basic template, or use a CAD/graphics program to create a full-on template (which can also include reference lines, centering marks, and boot sole scales).
Great idea! Thanks!

AM.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
Good advice here.
What thread are you reading??
There's some truth here, but a heck of a lot of chaff.
Quote:
I would recommend buying a ski specific bit, and a tap. It makes life much easier and is a small price to pay to get it right.
OK that makes sense.

Quote:
I just use regular wood glue. I think the kind I have is tite-bond. Most glues will work fine. I probably wouldn't use epoxy, but I'm sure it wouldn't hurt anything.
Epoxy on the screws? what happens when he wants to remove the bindings?

Another poster suggested Gorilla glue. I've seen how much that stuff expands, and can imagine it delaminating a ski.
Yes, there's metal in a 9'18.
Yes, the screws are supposed to be torqued.
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
What thread are you reading??
There's some truth here, but a heck of a lot of chaff.
I didn't say it was ALL good advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
Epoxy on the screws? what happens when he wants to remove the bindings?

Another poster suggested Gorilla glue. I've seen how much that stuff expands, and can imagine it delaminating a ski.
That's why I said I don't, and wouldn't, use epoxy. I've seen plenty of people use it with no problems, though.

Gorilla glue expands quite a bit, but there is no way it would delaminate a ski....

Again, I use titebond. Works great.
post #17 of 28
Thread Starter 
Thanks so much for all the advice guys. I was surprised to find that it said right on the ski under the old bindings that it was 4.1mmx9mm holes. I was able to get a jig, bit, and kuu binding glue. The hardest part was getting the old bindings off! The new ones are now on and laying upside down while the glue sets. I read that by laying them upside down it 'could' help the glue to stay near the surface plate helping ensure a good seal but who knows - doesn't hurt anyways.

Although it was suggested I didn't tap the holes. The screws seemed to thread in nicely anyway. Just got a little lazy on that part

For the old holes I hammered in some plastic plugs they had at a shop. Probably would have been better to heat them up first but they went it really snug.

Phirley was right when I went into the shop they said they can't work on those bindings anymore, they had the jig but for legal reasons or something like that..?...

Cheers guys and again thanks for all the advice!
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by U.P. Racer View Post
That's why I said I don't, and wouldn't, use epoxy. I've seen plenty of people use it with no problems, though.
There are 40+ types of epoxy adhesive from one manufacture alone. They come in types that are strong or weak, clear or coloured, flexible or rigid, fast-setting or slow.... I find it difficult to generalize epoxy characteristics although many people often do.

I also use Titebond because it works just fine.
post #19 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-turn View Post
What thread are you reading??
There's some truth here, but a heck of a lot of chaff.

OK that makes sense.


Epoxy on the screws? what happens when he wants to remove the bindings?

Another poster suggested Gorilla glue. I've seen how much that stuff expands, and can imagine it delaminating a ski.
Yes, there's metal in a 9'18.
Yes, the screws are supposed to be torqued.
I agree with you on the epoxy. Something that hard has no place holding bindings to a ski. Gorilla Glue, de-laminating the ski though? I don't usually saturate the hole like I would with binding glue but the gorilla glue definitely seems to hold well and is ultimately removable.
post #20 of 28
http://www.tognar.com/binding_tools_...snowboard.html

most of the correct items that are needed is on this age,

glue, bits, plugs.

You also should really have a #3 pozi-driver or pozi-driver bit. I like both the long and short poz-driver bits. the long one comes in handy on heel pieces where you may have angles access to screws.
post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
As far as templates go, my favorite trick is to use a computer scanner to get a full-scale picture of the bottom of the binding, including screw holes. Then, either print it straight out for a basic template, or use a CAD/graphics program to create a full-on template (which can also include reference lines, centering marks, and boot sole scales).
I tried this last night on my kid's new Trouble Makers / PX12's.

You must have better scanning equipment than me, as I just couldn't get a decent template. Had to resort to the old-fashioned method of tape on the ski, then careful measuring and marking. Got 'em within a whisker of perfect

AM.
post #22 of 28
I've used nothing but wood glue my whole life. Never had a problem (knock on wood). Epoxy *can* be used. You can usually remove a screw by heating it indirectly by heating the driver bit and then backing it out.
post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attacking Mid View Post
I tried this last night on my kid's new Trouble Makers / PX12's.

You must have better scanning equipment than me, as I just couldn't get a decent template. Had to resort to the old-fashioned method of tape on the ski, then careful measuring and marking. Got 'em within a whisker of perfect

AM.
Gee, I don't think there is anything special about the scanner. When I scan the bottom of the binding, it comes out looking like a photograph on the screen.
post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
Gee, I don't think there is anything special about the scanner. When I scan the bottom of the binding, it comes out looking like a photograph on the screen.

Forgot to mention that the scanner idea is an excellent one! Thanks for the tip.
post #25 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier219 View Post
As far as templates go, my favorite trick is to use a computer scanner to get a full-scale picture of the bottom of the binding, including screw holes. Then, either print it straight out for a basic template, or use a CAD/graphics program to create a full-on template (which can also include reference lines, centering marks, and boot sole scales).

I tried this Craig, and found there was a slight disproportion after scanning and ended up rescaling to fit and drafted the hole layout in my CAD application.

Here are the Look/Rossi Axial2 120Ti bindings bottoms.
post #26 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
I tried this and found there was a slight disproportion after scanning and ended up rescaling to fit and drafted the hole layout in my CAD application.

Here are the Look/Rossi Axial2 120Ti bindings bottoms.
That was the same problem I encountered. The scanned image was distorted enough that I couldn't use it.

AM.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
I tried this Craig, and found there was a slight disproportion after scanning and ended up rescaling to fit and drafted the hole layout in my CAD application.
That would not be unheard of. There can also be a discrepancy from computer to printer when you want to print the paper templates. Years ago you could calibrate scanner / computer / printer scaling in good drawing apps to make this a non issue (in fact, back then it was a Mac-only capability). I assume it's still possible nowadays.

I have been using an older Epson scanner driven by the standard "Image Capture" app in Mac OS X, and an older version of Canvas (version 8, it's PowerPC and runs under Rosetta on my Intel Macs). Usually the first thing I do is scan, draw circles over the screw holes on the image, print out the circles, and then compare back to the binding. After verifying the whole system is scaled corretly, I finish the rest of the template. So far everything has been matching up perfectly without any touching up needed.

I should note that I also scan a ruler in with the bindings, which helps verify the scale is being preserved during the scan / edit / print routine. Here's a screenshot of some of the bindings I have worked on in Canvas, where you can see the original scans with ruler, and another screenshot showing the finished template (Tyrolia) set for printing to 11x17:
525x525px-LL-vbattach4170.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach4171.jpg
post #28 of 28
Thanks for the heads up on calibration. I'll see if I can with my ole Microtek. I can get accuracy in one direction currently, but not the other. Putting a scale reference in both x & y directions and a diagonal might be worth experimenting with as well.
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