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The East Coast - Page 5

post #121 of 222
11/12/08 at 2:58pm
Not sociological, geological. The mountains are much older, eroded, worn down. Also meteorological, more snow would make more chutes through the remaining cliffs skiable.
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post #122 of 222
11/12/08 at 3:19pm
my friend's brother, who is a geologist agrees "there's no geology back there" was what he always claimed.

Actually from what I know of earth science, some of the oldest rock on earth exists in Quebec and Ontario. Appalacians are old too.

The Rockies are younger, steeper and higher and always will be (in our lifetimes). Don't forget SLC and Denver are 5000 feet up already. We get enough cold weather to support snow back here but we do have less steep mountains.
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post #123 of 222
11/12/08 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
the trails are less steep because the terrian isnt as steep.

4. true you all stuck back there but noone has a monopoly on where you go new england specifically vermont might have the most major resorts in a small area in the country.

so back to my original statement the appalacians are older mountains and there for more eroded. as a whole they cant be a steep and the rockies or sierra. it has nothing to do with how the resort cut trails.

as for difficulty

ski paradise to grand canyon at MRG
and then do Corbett's to hobacks at jackson hole.

I promise you despite JH being twice the vertical that its more difficult and tiring to ski top to bottom at MRG.
I would love to try this. Unfortunately its not possible, you cannot get to the hobacks after skiing corbets. Maybe rendezvous bowl to the hobacks. The shorter turning at Mad River which means less speed and a longer run would be the equalizer. I know I cannot do paradise to grand canyon without stopping thats for sure, though I think paradise to ferret to glade is considered more difficult. If it dumps at Jackson you can bomb the slopes mentioned. If you bomb paradise at those speeds even in good snow conditions things may get real dicey.

Also I have not noticed any difference between how far the chairs are apart on the new single. We chat perfectly fine. The only noticable difference is the lack of the pole hook up high.
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post #124 of 222
11/12/08 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
A sociological question for you -- why are the trails less steep in the East?

There are certainly steep spots off-trail in the East -- see the Meathead films, or just look sideways at the cliffs near the top of Mt Mansfield at Stowe. I suspect that if there are stretches of 90 degree terrain, there are in-between slopes too. Hey, last I checked Tuckerman's was in the East too.

A couple of possibilities occur to me...
1. The areas are older. The trails were cut when steeper was out of the question.
2. The weather/snow won't support sustained traffic on steeper pitches.
3. Different state insurance laws.
4. We all suck back here and the areas know their customer base.

Any other possibilities? Which is right?
They used to be steeper, but as the number of overweight skiers has grown they got flattened out from the weight.
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post #125 of 222
11/12/08 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
A sociological question for you -- why are the trails less steep in the East?

There are certainly steep spots off-trail in the East -- see the Meathead films, or just look sideways at the cliffs near the top of Mt Mansfield at Stowe. I suspect that if there are stretches of 90 degree terrain, there are in-between slopes too. Hey, last I checked Tuckerman's was in the East too.

A couple of possibilities occur to me...
1. The areas are older. The trails were cut when steeper was out of the question.
2. The weather/snow won't support sustained traffic on steeper pitches.
3. Different state insurance laws.
4. We all suck back here and the areas know their customer base.

Any other possibilities? Which is right?
Am I the only one here that wasn't asleep that day in 4th grade?

Glaciers. Ice age.

They rounded off the mountaintops and filled in the valleys with glacial till. They scooped out lakes. The airfare was too much for all the overweight charges and they never went out west.

Sheesh.

There is also something known as the maximum angle of repose. It is higher for rock and talus slopes (Rockies) than for dirt (Appalachians)
Having skied 45°in bowls and chutes in Colorado, and every area in Vermont, I can tell you Bushwacker is 100% right in that the eastern steeps are harder in anything but 2 feet of fresh. which is nearly all the time.

(Sorry for the boldface, typesize selection took a life of its own after the '°')
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post #126 of 222
11/12/08 at 4:34pm
Here is a benefit of these old mountains in the east, rounded off rocks that let moss grow on them, base damage is kept to a minimum. You can jump it or if you look closely and see some tracks ,ski right over it. We get by with smaller base depths too.
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post #127 of 222
11/12/08 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I think the perceptions of crappy east coast conditions is from crappy east coast skiers who dont know how to find good snow...
Northern Vermont averages as much snow as most places out west. and has some big vertical drops. Stowe, smugglers Notch, Jay Peak and Sugarbush all have bigger verticals than alta...
Bush, first consider that the word "conditions" does not mean the same as "terrain." The east coast DOES NOT have the number of bluebird days or fresh light powder that the Rockies do, and the Rockies DO NOT have the number of melt/refreeze cycles that we do. Go look it up at a meteorological site and tell the guys there they also don't know what they're talking about.

Then realize that "vertical" DOES NOT mean the same as "pitch." Yes, many of the eastern resorts you mention have more vertical feet than places like Squaw or Alta. But anyone who thinks that Stow offers more than Squaw or Alta needs to stop smoking that stuff. I ski Smuggs and Stowe and a bunch of other places back here every winter. I hike to places where there's some pitch (usually short stretches with lotsa trees), and if there's good snow to be had, it's there. Yes, you can film cool tight shots of pillows and little cliffs, and yes those technical bits are just as challenging as technical bits out west. But back here, they run out. That's the glitch with eastern resorts; the pitch runs out. Quickly. Even OB.

And for all those crappy ex-racers who own the front four at Stowe on bulletproof ice, go check out "Nosedive" if you want to see how much linguistic overstatement we're prone to about pitch...

So I work this region because it's where I live, and I think it's great, but get real about the crappy skiers bluster.
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post #128 of 222
11/12/08 at 5:41pm
Thread Starter 
...also - what's the deal with all the chest-thumping about what great ice skiers East Coasters are? That's like some surfer in Texas bragging about how great he is in 2' crappy blown-out surf. It's great you guys can ski ice so well, but why?
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post #129 of 222
11/12/08 at 5:42pm
fwiw, I got yelled at for trying to pump my own gas in Oregon - as well as NJ.

Good pizza in New England? It's rare, but it does exist. Sal's in southern NH and northern MA, Santarpio's in East Boston, Pepe's in New Haven, and others.

Oh wait -- this is a ski forum!!!
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post #130 of 222
11/12/08 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
...also - what's the deal with all the chest-thumping about what great ice skiers East Coasters are? That's like some surfer in Texas bragging about how great he is in 2' crappy blown-out surf. It's great you guys can ski ice so well, but why?
Those were two foot tubes I'd like you to know with long Rt breaks. Locked in tubular brah. It closes out when the hurricanes come . Ice sucks . You might as well be skateboarding .The asphalt gives a little more..
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post #131 of 222
11/12/08 at 6:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
It's great you guys can ski ice so well, but why?
Because its there..

It doesn't matter if it's a condition I find more enjoyable than others or not (although ALL skiing is enjoyable to me), it's the fact that to be a truly great skier, you need to be able to do i all. If you don't think that Seth Morisson or Shane McConkney are great on ice as well as pow, you're out of your mind.

Your analogy about surfers is more akin to steepness than conditions. As in a skier bragging that he is great on the bunny hill. That would be kind of funny actually.
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post #132 of 222
11/12/08 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
...also - what's the deal with all the chest-thumping about what great ice skiers East Coasters are? That's like some surfer in Texas bragging about how great he is in 2' crappy blown-out surf. It's great you guys can ski ice so well, but why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Those were two foot tubes I'd like you to know with long Rt breaks. Locked in tubular brah. It closes out when the hurricanes come . Ice sucks . You might as well be skateboarding .The asphalt gives a little more..
That's why grooming is a good thing around here most of the time

But those ice patches hidden under the 3" of groomed fluff takes your balance to a whole new level if you don't crack a hip first.
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post #133 of 222
11/12/08 at 6:31pm
Ok, I think you all missed my point. I should have started by saying that, on average, the Rockies or the Wasatch are much steeper than the Green Mountains. Sure. I understand the glacier thing.

But that just means you can't have long, steep trails, not that there aren't steep pitches. (Heck, we still have cliffs in the East -- they weren't all ground down.)

So why aren't any of the steeper pitches ski trails?

Or maybe they are, but they are too short to notice.
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post #134 of 222
11/12/08 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowbowler View Post
Here is a benefit of these old mountains in the east, rounded off rocks that let moss grow on them, base damage is kept to a minimum. You can jump it or if you look closely and see some tracks ,ski right over it. We get by with smaller base depths too.
I have very fond memories of skiing 2 inches of fresh over grass. It worked great, provided you didn't over-edge.
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post #135 of 222
11/12/08 at 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer View Post
...It's great you guys can ski ice so well, but why?
'cause we have to.
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post #136 of 222
11/12/08 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumpy View Post
The thing that blows my mind is that full service gas in Jersey is cheaper than self serve in most other places on the East Coast.
I was talking to a local attendant, who I think is closely related to the owner of the station. He mentioned something about Jersey's pricing structure being different than all states in the region. Taxes of course is a big part of it but there is something extra that has to do with money going back to the station after each sale. Can someone else chime in?
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post #137 of 222
11/12/08 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowsport View Post
fwiw, I got yelled at for trying to pump my own gas in Oregon - as well as NJ.
Don't know about Oregon, but in Jersey no attendant would care if you pump your own. I do that (at least I used to) often because I can get out much faster and I can stand my own attitude much more.

You sure the NJ attendant was yelling at you because you were pumping your own gas? Do they need a reason?
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post #138 of 222
11/12/08 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
ski paradise to grand canyon at MRG
yup, or, take a hint from what I'm about to say and end up skier's left...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf
So why aren't any of the steeper pitches ski trails?
because of the unfavorable relationships between several factors: crowds vs. quantity. safety vs. nanny state. angle of repose vs. snow quantity.

You are quite correct that these areas exist, some are even trails, but you must find them the old fashioned way...

dumpy: northern new mexico.
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post #139 of 222
11/13/08 at 4:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post
So why aren't any of the steeper pitches ski trails?
It is true that the steep terrain in the east is not used for skiing. The reason, IMHO, is the snow. We may receive 300" of snow but the snow either gets firm from ice or melts. There is never enough snow because it melts. As it melts the water re-freezes causing snow that is too firm.

On Paridise, the need for snow is almost always apparent. Paradise is not that steep yet rocks and stumps are still exposed. That's not to say conditions aren't exceptional even under those circumstances.

300" in the East is not the same as 300" in the West.
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post #140 of 222
11/13/08 at 10:18am
As I had showed on page 4, West ski resorts are significantly steeper than east ski resorts. The steepest I found for a decent (for the east) amount of distance is 34* off the very last 150 feet on Upper Goat. Upper Starr's first 225 feet is also 34*. Lower Ovation at Killington has 33* over 312 vertical. These are the three steepest pitches I've found so far in the east that is lift serviced and is a named run.

Now, these runs would easily be single blacks farther out west. You can't really consider a run to be double black out west unless it is 40* for a very consistent amount of feet or very narrow.

But this brings in conditions. If you think the average run down Rendevous Bowl at JH (36*, ?1200? vertical) is going to be any easier than the average day skiing Outerlimits at Killington (27*, 1020 vertical), than you're probably wrong. Ripping a foot of pow pow in Rendevous Bowl is a lot easier than skiing huge bumps covered in a thick sheet of ice. Outerlimits is probably even harder than Rendevous Bowl.

So if you're looking for challenge in the east, you'll find it at a different perspective. The West has many challenges to come at you, such as learning how to ski powder, steeps, and hucking [bigger] cliffs. The East will give you the challenge of overcoming challenging conditions. If the East had perfect conditions, there would be an incredible lack of lift-served challenge! No, I'm not saying ice is good. But it sets you up for those days out west. A hit by ice out west will prepare you for the ice, unlike other Westerners.

My conclusion is that the East's challenge is not the most enjoyable challenge, but at least it is present. I'm not saying I like ice BTW, I'm just saying it creates a challenge!
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post #141 of 222
11/13/08 at 1:21pm
Ok, I had to find this. Click on the arrow for the thread this list came from or use the link in Jamesj's quote to go to another thread on the same topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesj View Post
The info that follows came primarily from this thread on epicski.com :
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=29735&highlight=steep
These steepness statistics were offered by a poster named Powdr, he gets any credit (or blame) due. I believe he is some kind of geographic info systems analyst and used Google Earth to derive the degree of steepness for what he perceived to be the steepest stretch with over a couple hundred yards length on well known ski trails around the country. The list started with Eastern trails, but then stats were added on a sampling of terrain from all around the country. Sorry, the runs are listed in somewhat random order. I've done a little editing in my compilation, hopefully not introducing errors. He tried to pick the steepest section he could find on each run, as long as it was over 500' in length, but I wouldn't call the process/stats definitive. They may make for fun discussion/speculation though. Note: these are in degrees, not percent.

Ovation at Killington (24 degrees, actually):
Paradise at MRG - 32.5 degrees
Tramline at Cannon - 28.1 degrees
White Nitro, Sugarloaf - 29.5 degree
Starr @ Stowe - 31.1 degrees
Castle Rock @ Sugarbush - 21.3 degrees
Whiteface Slides @ whiteface - 36.3 degrees
Denton Hill's (PA) triple diamond run - 27.7 degrees
Goat @ Stowe - 33.6 degrees
Robin's Run @ Smuggs - 29.8 degrees
Outer Limits @ Killington - 28.5 degrees
Devils Fiddle @ Killington - 25 degrees
Ripcord @ Mt. Snow - 27.4 degrees
Tuckerman's Ravine, NH (steepest I could find) - 45.3 degrees (damm!)
Dynamite @ Tremblant - 28 degrees
Black Hole @ Smuggs - 31.0 degrees
Ovation (lower section) @ Killington - 30.7 degrees
KT-22 East Chutes @ Squaw - 41 degrees
Huevos Grande @ Mammoth - 52.3 degrees (wicked steep)
51-50 @ PCMR - 47.9 degrees (and everyone says PCMR isn't steep)
Main Baldy Chute @ Alta - 44 degrees (but it's a dry steep)
Extrovert @ Blue Knob - 28.5 degrees
High Rustler @ Alta - 44.3 degrees
Great Scott @ Snowbird - 46.5 degrees
Upper Cirque @ Snowbird - 40.5 degrees
Peruvian @ Snowbird - 32.9 degrees
Under Powderhorn lift @ Solitude - 42.8 degrees
Under 9990 @ The Canyons - 29 degrees
Square Top @ The Canyons - 41.0 degrees
Upper Big Emma (Green Run!) @ Snowbird - 25.3 degrees!
Rumble @ Sugarbush - 27.9 degrees
Pitch Pine @ King Pine - 21.1 Degrees

Tuckerman Ravine Routes:
1 - 38.7 degrees
2 - 44.0 degrees
3 - 44.6 degrees
4 - 48.1 degrees
5 - 48.3 degrees
6 - 46.8 degrees
7 - 43.5 degrees
8 - 42.8 degrees
9 - 31.4 degrees
10- 30.3 degrees

Lower Wildcat @ Laurel Mountain (PA) - 28.1 degrees
Tower Three Chute @ JH - 43.1 degrees
Blowhole (Whistler/Blackcomb) - couldn't find it on the map
Rumor @ Gore - 28.9 degrees
Gunbarrel @ Heavenly, on the steepest pitch (a 136' section) is 31.6 degrees.
Palisades @ Squaw - 45.5 degrees (steepest section I could find - 205' long)
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post #142 of 222
11/13/08 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiking4 View Post
A
But this brings in conditions. If you think the average run down Rendevous Bowl at JH (36*, ?1200? vertical) is going to be any easier than the average day skiing Outerlimits at Killington (27*, 1020 vertical), than you're probably wrong. Ripping a foot of pow pow in Rendevous Bowl is a lot easier than skiing huge bumps covered in a thick sheet of ice. Outerlimits is probably even harder than Rendevous Bowl.
I think you meant to say that skiing Rendevous Bowl at JH is easier than sking Outer Limits at Kton. If that is what you meant then I completely agree. OL is definatley harder than Rendevous.
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post #143 of 222
11/13/08 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
I think you meant to say that skiing Rendevous Bowl at JH is easier than sking Outer Limits at Kton. If that is what you meant then I completely agree. OL is definatley harder than Rendevous.
Yes. The East has it's own terms of "challenge".

Oh, and @Laurel Hill Craze-- I get many different numbers than that, but mostly because my numbers are much longer than 500' in length. Hm, good for comparing the two sets of data? And mine isn't that neat. But soon I'll have a giant chart and easy to read! (I hope)
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post #144 of 222
11/13/08 at 1:57pm
If I recall correctly, Powdr details his methodology in the thread linked in the quote if you're really interested in that detail. Also, the locations for the numbered routes on the Tuckerman's list are explained.
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post #145 of 222
11/13/08 at 7:48pm
I was gonna say - it's outta necessity we ski the ice. Sometimes it's all we got!
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post #146 of 222
11/13/08 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ct55 View Post
I was gonna say - it's outta necessity we ski the ice. Sometimes it's all we got!
Skinny skis need love too
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post #147 of 222
11/14/08 at 5:52am
One of the reasons steep trails are hard to come by in the east is that the ski areas are older. The trails at MRG for example, were cut in the 40s and they were very steep for back then.

Also, Paradise is a very challenging trail. You can't just look at how steep it is. The snow is crud, which is good but tricky. The trail breaks into chutes that are icy and narrow - full of rocks and stumps. You ski down these narrow chutes which would be difficut in good conditions, then you have to dance around obstacals. Meanwhile you are constantly looking for a place to duck into softer snow without getting impaled.

There is another non-trail in that area that is absolutely insane. It drops you into an area beat up by all the landings. It's a mess, but that makes it fun, especially when you ski it well. That is a hard ****in trail.

These challenging trails are what make the east a good place to ski. I suppose a skier coming from the incredible snow of the west would ask why ski here. But getting your ass kicked can be good motivation to get your act together on the next run.
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post #148 of 222
11/14/08 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
One of the reasons steep trails are hard to come by in the east is that the ski areas are older. The trails at MRG for example, were cut in the 40s and they were very steep for back then.

Also, Paradise is a very challenging trail. You can't just look at how steep it is. The snow is crud, which is good but tricky. The trail breaks into chutes that are icy and narrow - full of rocks and stumps. You ski down these narrow chutes which would be difficut in good conditions, then you have to dance around obstacals. Meanwhile you are constantly looking for a place to duck into softer snow without getting impaled.

There is another non-trail in that area that is absolutely insane. It drops you into an area beat up by all the landings. It's a mess, but that makes it fun, especially when you ski it well. That is a hard ****in trail.

These challenging trails are what make the east a good place to ski. I suppose a skier coming from the incredible snow of the west would ask why ski here. But getting your ass kicked can be good motivation to get your act together on the next run.
Its called octupus's gardens the unmarked stuff at MRG is some of the most interesting terrain in the united states.
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post #149 of 222
11/14/08 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
Its called octupus's gardens the unmarked stuff at MRG is some of the most interesting terrain in the united states.
I wasn't going to name it. You have skied it I presume? It's sick. I feel like a million bucks when I can ski it well. Maybe someday we can ski it together. You should let me go first
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post #150 of 222
11/14/08 at 8:03am
It would be interesting to see if Bushwacker's opinion would change after skiing a couple of seasons out west then returning to ski some of the spots he's written about here.
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