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Biostance - cant adjustment

post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
Hi,

This was a post in the boot section and since I couldn't respond to it there, I wanted to address it here.
This is something I know a lot about, having used the system for years.
It is unfortunate that all of the responses were from people who don't actually know anything about it, but just speculation.

Quite simply, Biostance is incredible. The thinking and work that have gone into it would blow your mind. I have worked directly with the founder for years and it changes the lives of skiers who do it. It really is an amazing thing. The cap is only one part of the system, and yes it works to correct lateral canting. It's easy, cheap, and effective. Like many ingenious things, it seems too simple, but is really a breakthrough.
Biostance is a technique for balancing skiers perfectly on their skis. Until you've experienced it, it's easy to blow it off as unimportant. It deals with both lateral canting and fore and aft, or ramp angle. The way they do the balancing, like the caps, is deceptively simple, but relies on years of research and precise equipment. I can honestly say it has been developed by some of the smartest, most dedicated people in the ski industry.

The way to experience it is to go to a participating licensed shop. You can find one at Biostance.com. I've been to Tahoe Boot N' Bike Works, and they've been great. Here's their address at Heavenly Village:
1001 Heavenly Village Way
Unit 36B
South Lake Tahoe, CA 96150
530-542-1388

Try it! You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
If you'd like more info, feel free to PM about my experience. I have no commercial ties to them, but would love to turn anyone and everyone on to something that will change their skiing for life.
post #2 of 13
I'm curious about the product. The website shows the "caps" that fit Marker, but I would assume they can match up with other binding systems as well. Do the caps come in 1 degree increments? How do they make go about assessing the degree of canting you need?

Approximate cost of assesment of need and installation?
post #3 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by squawbomber View Post
Hi,

This was a post in the boot section and since I couldn't respond to it there, I wanted to address it here.
This is something I know a lot about, having used the system for years.
It is unfortunate that all of the responses were from people who don't actually know anything about it, but just speculation.

Quite simply, Biostance is incredible. The thinking and work that have gone into it would blow your mind. I have worked directly with the founder for years and it changes the lives of skiers who do it. It really is an amazing thing. The cap is only one part of the system, and yes it works to correct lateral canting. It's easy, cheap, and effective. Like many ingenious things, it seems too simple, but is really a breakthrough.
Biostance is a technique for balancing skiers perfectly on their skis. Until you've experienced it, it's easy to blow it off as unimportant. It deals with both lateral canting and fore and aft, or ramp angle. The way they do the balancing, like the caps, is deceptively simple, but relies on years of research and precise equipment. I can honestly say it has been developed by some of the smartest, most dedicated people in the ski industry.

The way to experience it is to go to a participating licensed shop. You can find one at Biostance.com. I've been to Tahoe Boot N' Bike Works, and they've been great. Here's their address at Heavenly Village:
1001 Heavenly Village Way
Unit 36B
South Lake Tahoe, CA 96150
530-542-1388

Try it! You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
If you'd like more info, feel free to PM about my experience. I have no commercial ties to them, but would love to turn anyone and everyone on to something that will change their skiing for life.
I'm the OP of that thread to which you refer.

Thanks for your comments.

First question: how does that "cap" only placed on the rear binding not introduce some type of lateral "torque" in the boot. Does this not require some type of offsetting adjustment to either the boot and/or the front binding to keep everything in DIN??

thanks,

Ron
post #4 of 13
Ron, good question and unless someone can give a definative answer as to why it doesn't introduce a twist into the system i would say it has to, i have a couple more questions that squawbomber may be able to answer...

1. how can this system adress fore/ aft balance, it is a wedged plate which fits on the heel piece?
2. as Ron has asked how can this not put a twist in the boot /binding interface?
3. what do Marker say about the interference of the boot binding interface in their bindings?
3 as you know / have worked with the founder yet have no financial ties to the company, prehaps you could shed some light on the marketing [sorry scare mongering] of the product, it appears that every system ever used by ski shops except this one is dangerous...mmmmm very strange.

when a product like this comes along, no matter how simple or complex the only way you will get any of us to beleive it is if you can come up with facts to prove its worth, slamming the opposition is not the way to go, at best it alienates fitters all over the globe to the product, at worst it inspires us to go test it and blow it out the water completely
obviously this has done something to change your life, whether it is because you know the founder or it is because you have never tried anything else we will probably never know.

i tend to work with facts and then add the human factor, everything i have read about this system so far screams do not go there

i await your responses.
post #5 of 13
Squawbomber, after you have finished answering CEM's questions, I have a couple as well. Sounds as though you have worked with Pat over the years. He was the equip. specialist I mentioned in this thread http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=74657 . As I understood, he utilizes biostance as his bootfitting methodology, measuring angles, etc. However - in contrast to the OP's experience thus far w/the binding caps, I understood Pat planes & plates(if needed) boots for canting needs. That he uses the snap on cant simulators for diagnostics, not for the permanent fix. Did I misunderstand the system & use ? Clearly you have benefitted from the system. But - was that in getting proper angles,bootfit, sole planing, as well as bindings mounted for your needs ? Or is the cap system on the binding heel the prescription ?


Asking the clarification because several friend's who have had boots fitted there clearly had the boots planed & plated on toes & heels as part of their balancing and biostance.
post #6 of 13
[quote=squawbomber;990559]Hi,

This was a post in the boot section and since I couldn't respond to it there, I wanted to address it here.
This is something I know a lot about, having used the system for years.
It is unfortunate that all of the responses were from people who don't actually know anything about it, but just speculation.

Quite simply, Biostance is incredible. The thinking and work that have gone into it would blow your mind. I have worked directly with the founder for years and it changes the lives of skiers who do it. It really is an amazing thing. The cap is only one part of the system, and yes it works to correct lateral canting. It's easy, cheap, and effective. Like many ingenious things, it seems too simple, but is really a breakthrough.
Biostance is a technique for balancing skiers perfectly on their skis. Until you've experienced it, it's easy to blow it off as unimportant. It deals with both lateral canting and fore and aft, or ramp angle. The way they do the balancing, like the caps, is deceptively simple, but relies on years of research and precise equipment. I can honestly say it has been developed by some of the smartest, most dedicated people in the ski industry.

The way to experience it is to go to a participating licensed shop. You can find one at Biostance.com. I've been to Tahoe Boot N' Bike Works, and they've been great. Here's their address at Heavenly Village:
1001 Heavenly Village Way
Unit 36B
South Lake Tahoe, CA 96150
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns View Post
I'm curious about the product. The website shows the "caps" that fit Marker, but I would assume they can match up with other binding systems as well. Do the caps come in 1 degree increments? How do they make go about assessing the degree of canting you need?

Approximate cost of assesment of need and installation?
Caps come for marker and Salomon. Definitely less than 1 degree increments. quarter or half I think.
I'm not sure of the price. You get on the special stand, go through the process, then get what you need. Probably between $100-200. Check with your nearest retailer.
post #8 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSki View Post
I'm the OP of that thread to which you refer.

Thanks for your comments.

First question: how does that "cap" only placed on the rear binding not introduce some type of lateral "torque" in the boot. Does this not require some type of offsetting adjustment to either the boot and/or the front binding to keep everything in DIN??

thanks,

Ron
I am not the engineer. My understanding is that it doesn't. In fact I'm sure it doesn't.
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
Ron, good question and unless someone can give a definative answer as to why it doesn't introduce a twist into the system i would say it has to, i have a couple more questions that squawbomber may be able to answer...

1. how can this system adress fore/ aft balance, it is a wedged plate which fits on the heel piece?
2. as Ron has asked how can this not put a twist in the boot /binding interface?
3. what do Marker say about the interference of the boot binding interface in their bindings?
3 as you know / have worked with the founder yet have no financial ties to the company, prehaps you could shed some light on the marketing [sorry scare mongering] of the product, it appears that every system ever used by ski shops except this one is dangerous...mmmmm very strange.

when a product like this comes along, no matter how simple or complex the only way you will get any of us to beleive it is if you can come up with facts to prove its worth, slamming the opposition is not the way to go, at best it alienates fitters all over the globe to the product, at worst it inspires us to go test it and blow it out the water completely
obviously this has done something to change your life, whether it is because you know the founder or it is because you have never tried anything else we will probably never know.

i tend to work with facts and then add the human factor, everything i have read about this system so far screams do not go there

i await your responses.
The cap doesn't address fore/aft balancing. It simply addresses canting. Fore/aft, or ramp angle needs shims and so forth. But the cap is effective for canting and addresses a need, and does so quickly and effeciently. For 2 and 3, I am confident it is not a problem, but, again, I am not the engineer.

I really have no insight into the marketing of this whatsoever. I can say that I honestly know/believe this is great stuff and educating people in the ski industry is never easy. I would say the best way to really get to know it would be to call a participating retailer and talk with them, instead of speculating on the web. You can email the company as well from their website. The other thing is this is not a difficult or expensive thing to try. You'll feel the results right in the ski shop and can decide if you want to try it or not. That's one of the beautiful aspects of this, is that it is done off the snow. Basically, you get on a special stand and go through, with some guidance, different iterations of stance until you get it right. And it works on the mountain. Catching edges, tails washing out, even a lot of fatigue, they seem to magically go away. Again, try it. It's great.
post #10 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Squawbomber, after you have finished answering CEM's questions, I have a couple as well. Sounds as though you have worked with Pat over the years. He was the equip. specialist I mentioned in this thread http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=74657 . As I understood, he utilizes biostance as his bootfitting methodology, measuring angles, etc. However - in contrast to the OP's experience thus far w/the binding caps, I understood Pat planes & plates(if needed) boots for canting needs. That he uses the snap on cant simulators for diagnostics, not for the permanent fix. Did I misunderstand the system & use ? Clearly you have benefitted from the system. But - was that in getting proper angles,bootfit, sole planing, as well as bindings mounted for your needs ? Or is the cap system on the binding heel the prescription ?

Asking the clarification because several friend's who have had boots fitted there clearly had the boots planed & plated on toes & heels as part of their balancing and biostance.
I hadn't seen that post and I don't know Pat. Like I said, I had worked directly with the founder for years. I went to Tahoe Bike and Board to have them copy the "prescription" of an existing set of skis. They were well versed and competent and nailed it. Once you're balance, being off even a tiny bit is maddening. I have never had boots planed and Biostance discourages it.

So your questions. Because you have integrated "hostage" bindings, you're stuck with planing boots, or the caps. Ideally, a Biostance fitting would use shims to address ramp angle as well. This is hugely important, but again, impossible with your setup. This is one of the reasons we're seeing more flat skis.
Planing has gone on for years, but has plenty of problems. The boots are fragile (don't walk on them), it's hard to do, requires expensive equipment and a great technician. Isn't it easier to use a cap that accomplishes the same thing? And that you can test, right there in the shop, readily and quickly? One of Biostance's main goals is to bring this to the masses, really the masses, so a big part of their thinking is how to get this done effectively, quickly, and in a widespread way. Planing boots isn't going to be that answer.

By the way, let me just say that I have enormous respect for all the boot and ski technicians out there and understand having questions and being skeptical about something new. I'm sure there have been many not so great schemes over the years. So this is good dialogue and I am happy to be a part of it. But when something is being discussed that I really know about and respect, I want to be able to put in a good word.
post #11 of 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSki View Post
First question: how does that "cap" only placed on the rear binding not introduce some type of lateral "torque" in the boot. Does this not require some type of offsetting adjustment to either the boot and/or the front binding to keep everything in DIN??

Quote:
Originally Posted by squawbomber View Post
I am not the engineer. My understanding is that it doesn't. In fact I'm sure it doesn't.
I just got back from the ski shop, where I talked with the tech in more detail.

The Biostance cap systems absolutely and definitely does torque the boot in the bindings.

When I asked how this could possibly be safe, the tech gave the following responses:

- Biostance caps max out a 2 degree adjustments
- There is enough play in the off-the-shelf boot-binding fit that putting a 2 degree torque into this relationship will not impact DIN
- After putting in the caps, the shop tests to make sure the boots release properly anyway

I will let everyone draw their own conclusions on this - - but I sure decided to take a pass...
post #12 of 13
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSki View Post
I just got back from the ski shop, where I talked with the tech in more detail.

The Biostance cap systems absolutely and definitely does torque the boot in the bindings.

When I asked how this could possibly be safe, the tech gave the following responses:

- Biostance caps max out a 2 degree adjustments
- There is enough play in the off-the-shelf boot-binding fit that putting a 2 degree torque into this relationship will not impact DIN
- After putting in the caps, the shop tests to make sure the boots release properly anyway

I will let everyone draw their own conclusions on this - - but I sure decided to take a pass...
Your reasoning makes sense, but it is simply incorrect. The cap actually improves the performance of the binding by adding stability, even with a non-canted neutral setting. It's sad that something can be debated like this be people who know nothing about it, but I guess that's the point of the internet.
The people designing this stuff have done so much research that the binding companies are coming to them for advice. This year Marker actually made a change to one of their bindings based on feedback from Biostance.
I wish I had the energy to go on and on and explain how this works, but I think it would fall on deaf ears. Like I said in a earlier post, I strongly encourage you to contact a Biostance dealer and speak with them. They are trained and can educate you. And you can try it and feel your skiing improve dramatically. It's not a scheme or a crazy idea, but a carefully studied, methodically constucted system to help you ski better. They have got it right, as many happy skiers can attest to. Give it a try, you will not be disappointed.
post #13 of 13

here is a previous discussion at epic in 2006

<http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=47927>
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