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"Failure to release"

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what is meant by this term in some of the technical discussions. Things like if your weight is too far back the uphill ski will fail to release, or will be difficult to release, or with a wide tail the ski will not release at the end of the turn, etcetera.

When I try to fit this into my model of skiing, I picture the offending ski being on edge in the turn, cutting a nice path in the cord or hardpack, and then as the end of the turn approaches the ski is put less on edge and goes through flat and onto its other edge to begin the next turn.

The ski's edge goes from being tipped into the snow to being lifted off the snow at the end of one turn, beginning of the next turn. How can the edge fail to release if the edge is not tipped into the snow/ice. What's going on here. What am I missing?
post #2 of 14
Ghost,

I suspect it's more about "feel" than it is the skis literally not releasing. As you noted, the ski must release at some point as it flattens then rolls to the new edge. I think the descriptions you are hearing refer to when (relatively) the ski "lets go" and the closer the ski will hold to flat the greater the perception it will not release.

I'm sure I'll miss many factors, but it seems some that would effect this sensation are: Taper, Shape, Flex patterns of the ski, edge bevels, edge finish.

The "release" would be when the ski lets go and starts slipping. So this sensation might not fit in your Arc2Arc model at all if you're clean from edge to edge thru transition.

Chris
post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
Ghost,

I suspect it's more about "feel" than it is the skis literally not releasing. As you noted, the ski must release at some point as it flattens then rolls to the new edge. I think the descriptions you are hearing refer to when (relatively) the ski "lets go" and the closer the ski will hold to flat the greater the perception it will not release.

I'm sure I'll miss many factors, but it seems some that would effect this sensation are: Taper, Shape, Flex patterns of the ski, edge bevels, edge finish.

The "release" would be when the ski lets go and starts slipping. So this sensation might not fit in your Arc2Arc model at all if you're clean from edge to edge thru transition.

Chris
Thanks Chiis. Well explained.
post #4 of 14

not really failure...but not optimal

Using the phrase "failure to release" is too severe, otherwise you wouldn't make the "next" turn, ever

imagine skiing from left to right. release problems tend relate to having too much weight on the tail of your uphill, right ski. if you hold on too long you block the flow of mass (typically solved by a large movement up and across the skis to get weight on the inside and soon to be downhill eges)

so think of release/edging movements more on a continuum as opposed to on/off
post #5 of 14
Release what?

When I think of release, I think of the release of the CM from it's arc. This has nothing to do with the edges
post #6 of 14
Yup, I know you do, BigE. Didn't seem to me that Ghost was addressing the CM so much as the interaction of the ski with the snow surface.

When you think of release, does the ski disengage at the same time you release the CM?
post #7 of 14
Not necessarily.

Think about a cross-under transition, initiated with outside leg relaxation, where the skis are moving under you and not yet flat.

They've stopped deflecting the body and are switching sides.
post #8 of 14
I agree.

Not sure I see where cross-under or cross-over would make a difference whether the ski could continue tracking after CM release?

Since "release" has a specific meaning already to you (CSIA?) How would you refer to the point the ski disengages?
post #9 of 14
What I think of when I use the phrase failure to release is that you're not getting a ski to release when and where you want it to release. We saw this when a lot of WC skiers were blowing out their knees because the new shorties didn't allow them to tail carve as much as they could on the old longer skis.
From a technical cause and effect perspective I would say it's mainly due to being too far inside and aft late in the turn. Which leads to having to use a big, abrupt recentering move just to get the body back over the skis / skis underneath the body. Hanging up on an edge (another way of saying failure to release) led to a whole change in philosophy about trying to "save" the turn. It is now recommended to take the fall instead of blowing out your ACL and possibly ending your ski season/career.
post #10 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Release what?

When I think of release, I think of the release of the CM from it's arc. This has nothing to do with the edges
BigE is on track here. Release generally refers to discontinuing resistance to the turning forces and allowing the CM to flow across the skis and into the new turn. Edges roll over as a result. You can release your edge angle, but if you don't do something to move the CM you're in for a quick trip to the snow.

The secret of efficient skiing is exploiting the external turn forces to (via minimal efforts and movements) do the bulk of the CM moving for us. "Release" is an element of that process. it's not so much a question of inside or outside leg/ski. Release can be initiated by actions by either, and must be facilitated by actions by both.
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
"Release" is an element of that process. it's not so much a question of inside or outside leg/ski. Release can be initiated by actions in either, and must be facilitated by actions in either.
in either......or both at once.
post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
in either......or both at once.
YEP! You caught it before i fixed my typo.
post #13 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post
I agree.

Not sure I see where cross-under or cross-over would make a difference whether the ski could continue tracking after CM release?

Since "release" has a specific meaning already to you (CSIA?) How would you refer to the point the ski disengages?
True, over/under makes not much difference. Although the image I have in my mind of a cross-over also includes a bit of riding the skis as well, and could potentially confuse.

Yes, CSIA. Edge release is just that.
post #14 of 14
So Ghost,
I failed to tell you,Good point! I am probably one of those who used it in the context of being aft late in the turn, which causes the release to happen later than desired. Thanks for pointing out that accuracy in our verbage makes our message easier to understand. Can I solicit from you how you would re-phrase that phrase to make it more accurately reflect the idea that while the skis will eventually release, it just isn't happening when we want it to happen?
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