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Sudden down push at apex - valid technique or not - Page 4

post #91 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Is it possible that a push at apex creates an unweight, which helps to lesson the weight on the lower C and therefore the skier can move faster due to less friction & less compaction of snow?
I dont think so. If your skis are tuned accordingly then there is not much friction to mention. Try it on scates. Try "pumping" at apex.
post #92 of 192
On the Apex you should have really reached your lowest point (bend ze knees) in the turn, so you have no other choice but to start the process to stretch. However, the begin of the stretch should still be part of the weighing process. (You may have won the battle against Centrifugal force, but gravity is now kicking in heavily and wants to get you.)That is the most ideal scenario, it will give you the best exhilaration.
Once your mass is moving towards the next destination and gravity has overcome for the most part, the unweighing process starts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Is it possible that a push at apex creates an unweight, which helps to lesson the weight on the lower C and therefore the skier can move faster due to less friction & less compaction of snow?
post #93 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
On the Apex you should have really reached your lowest point (bend ze knees) in the turn, so you have no other choice but to start the process to stretch. However, the begin of the stretch should still be part of the weighing process. (You may have won the battle against Centrifugal force, but gravity is now kicking in heavily and wants to get you.)That is the most ideal scenario, it will give you the best exhilaration.
Once your mass is moving towards the next destination and gravity has overcome for the most part, the unweighing process starts.
How would you describe flexing and extending in such a turn:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
post #94 of 192
I would not dare to even go that far and try to analyze much in those pictures because, well they are just a few pictures. Besides I only can see about half of a turn to the left and then half of a turn to the right. You could try to analyze what goes wrong here, but hardly what goes right.
Just look at that skier, he is obviously having troubles in the transition, his legs are too far apart, maybe he needs to slow down some for what comes up in the run, but you cannot see it. And then look at the last picture, his outside ski is way too far back. Maybe a result of the transition that was a mistake, he is aware of it and it threw him off in the rhythm and/or stance. But you can only take a guess on that.

Again it should show that those guys are constantly confronted with tough situations, it is very difficult to come even close to a clean execution.
Further, this should really express how important it is to be excellent in coordination, in your technique and of course you have to be fit and very quick on your legs.
I don't really like to bring it up, but if you confront them with something like the Inclination for example which is way nowhere near to be found in the core moves, you will set them up to fail.
Find new ways to train, new drills to bring them where they need to be and work on your general approach. Now that will make you very successful and that is what I see as the 'higher level of coaching", whether that is at club level or national level it actually is the same. You just may not have all those fancy tools available.

I hope that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
How would you describe flexing and extending in such a turn:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
post #95 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
On the Apex you should have really reached your lowest point (bend ze knees) in the turn
This is not easy to understand. Here is what Hermann Maier do in 28.02.2004. Is he doing what you described?

http://www.youcanski.com/video/maier_gs1.m1v

If so, please specify where is the time position so that we could have an easy reference. Or, do you have a real life example in video format so that it can made understanding it a lot easier? Thanks in advance for any enlightening.
post #96 of 192
In this example you can see it in the last turn, since you can see it right from his back, he still has the pressure on the skis as he gets out of the apex and is still turning as he rises up. Tough to tell how much speed he makes, I can see it not sure if you can. In that case it would be best to have the cam at the bottom.
Just where the video stops is where he releases the pressure, the skis are in a neutral position. (not on any edge)

But watch also closely the two turns before. What happens there are two important things. First he tries to push the outside ski forward right there around the apex to get the most possible weight onto the outside ski/edge. That again is very well executed. But the snow looks sort of soft, so you can also recognize that Hermann is loosing the ground and sinks in a bit. So again we have a situation where is is just not possible to execute perfect.
Imagine he would lean further towards the inside. The slipping could cause him to move for a moment further to the inside ski which makes him move away from the outside ski and flatten the edges. That is when the ski stops turning and you loose ground and with that time and speed.
If you have bad timing in that and the situation is "ideal", it may even be the end of the race. Success is that close to failure. Another reason to go back to practice.

Oh and I am not here to enlighten anyone. I do not see myself as anything more than somebody that has a conversation with some colleagues. I have great respect for anyone that works in the same sport.

But I hope that helped you out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
This is not easy to understand. Here is what Hermann Maier do in 28.02.2004. Is he doing what you described?

http://www.youcanski.com/video/maier_gs1.m1v

If so, please specify where is the time position so that we could have an easy reference. Or, do you have a real life example in video format so that it can made understanding it a lot easier? Thanks in advance for any enlightening.
post #97 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
On the Apex you should have really reached your lowest point (bend ze knees) in the turn, so you have no other choice but to start the process to stretch.
Really? SimplyFast, please provide some videos or montages. I'm still not getting it.
post #98 of 192
Sorry, I cannot put our stuff on the net.

I can recommend the DVD from USSA, I know what they are doing and their stuff is getting really good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
Really? SimplyFast, please provide some videos or montages. I'm still not getting it.
post #99 of 192
You'll have to be more specific Simplyfast. I own one of the USSA training DVD's and do not recall seeing any footage that appears like that. Actually we look at many montages and video clips on this site and for the most part I can't think of any race footage showing technique where the racers are at their lowest point(bent knees) at apex.

I would really like to see some examples of it.
post #100 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
On the Apex you should have really reached your lowest point (bend ze knees) in the turn, so you have no other choice but to start the process to stretch.
The COM is at its lowest point because of lateral movement inside the arc.

Leg long, hip low (to the snow).

If you're bending your knees to be "low", IMHO you're doing something horribly wrong .
post #101 of 192
jdistefa, I'm with you on this, but perhaps Simplyfast can provide some more illustrations to show us what he is talking about. I'm trying to remain open minded. SF, it doesn't have to be footage from your own program. Any good examples at all will suffice.
post #102 of 192
Why don't you stand up and lean to any side and see how low your Center of Mass is going to be. Then after you get up again, bend your knees and see how low you can go with that.
Which feels better?

Leg long, hip low what does that describe?
Oh and you do not see Hermann's knees bent the most in the apex of the turns? And while we are at it, let me know if you see his knee being stretched at any given moment.

And what is the point to even send more samples if you are not even able to see things in this one?

I just cannot help you any more than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jdistefa View Post
The COM is at its lowest point because of lateral movement inside the arc.

Leg long, hip low (to the snow).

If you're bending your knees to be "low", IMHO you're doing something horribly wrong .
post #103 of 192
Thread Starter 
simplyfast, we have a problem. We can provide you loads of pictures of WC racers where they have flexed legs at transition and extended legs at apex. Also, you claim that Myhrer did something wrong in the gate I asked you to look at. So did everybody else in that prticular gate. Here:

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html

And here are other examples:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-2.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...006-gs-2A.html

Only thing we want to do is to see the things the way they are. In all the photomontages above there is no example where the outside leg would be more flexed at apex than slightly prior or soon after. However, in the following photomontages there could be somthing of the sort.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html

As the original poster of this thread I asked the question wheather it was a valid technique to "pump" at the gates and gain speed. Every one here that are in the same situation as I am "wondering" and trying to find out whats it all about have all the right in the world to remain in dissbelief untill pumping theory is proved to be right. All we ask for is for you or someone else to explain and show some photos or videos. Simplyfast is new here and we have great respect for his input. Dont be offended by our dissbelief. Like you said, this is just a normal skiing conversation that is supposed to be fun and educative. Ive learned that I did not know anything before I came here and that is thousands of posts ago. The only thing that I have sofar learned is that there is so much more to learn.
post #104 of 192
SimplyFast,

At the apex - outside leg is long, inside leg is flexed to allow the COM to move inside the arc.

This does a couple things:

1) Maximizes displacement of the COM from the feet (which is faster than the COM travelling with the feet).

2) Stacks the bones of the outside leg to resist pressure through the skeleton, not muscles.

3) Creates big edge angles which maximizes deflection at the apex. If you flex down in a vertical plane, you don't increase edge angle. If you think of 'flexing' as moving the joints laterally (hip low to the snow), you increase edge angle which of course is the primary mechanism of changing direction in a carved turn.

Of course, there will always be some flexing/suppleness of the outside leg to act as suspension, promote ski contact, and manage pressure. But if you think the outside leg should be significantly flexed at the apex in a carved turn, you're simply wrong (and slow ).

Obligatory pics:
525x525px-LL-vbattach4152.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach4153.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach4154.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach4155.jpg
525x525px-LL-vbattach4156.jpg
post #105 of 192
Thread Starter 
jdistefa, good post. Thanks for stepping in with great input.
post #106 of 192
I see what you mean. My post does appear to be offensive. And at the same time what is obvious to me may not be to you.

For example that our legs do not change their length just because they are on the inside ski or outside ski is obvious. Thank god we have knees and other joints to compensate for that.
That is also why the "alpine stance" as described is part of the core movement which I have included in one of the posts. I feel we keep constantly going back instead of forward. Skeletal Stability is also known to me, but does little for mobility and therefore wont help you to create speed. Torso Stability (upright) position is actually designed for that.
Sometimes of course as we have already mentioned we are in a position where extra speed is not desired. And in the photos that you have sent it simply shows that there has to be a hairpin or something coming up that makes the racers to put their handbrake on.


Some of your explanations are way better than mine, at least we are all work into the same direction.
Sometimes we just have to leave things open without a clear conclusion, everybody has their own experience. Hopefully nobody is too upset.

GOing to bed now.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
simplyfast, we have a problem. We can provide you loads of pictures of WC racers where they have flexed legs at transition and extended legs at apex. Also, you claim that Myhrer did something wrong in the gate I asked you to look at. So did everybody else in that prticular gate. Here:

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html

And here are other examples:
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-2.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-gs-1.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...006-gs-2A.html

Only thing we want to do is to see the things the way they are. In all the photomontages above there is no example where the outside leg would be more flexed at apex than slightly prior or soon after. However, in the following photomontages there could be somthing of the sort.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html
http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/20...2006-sl-2.html

As the original poster of this thread I asked the question wheather it was a valid technique to "pump" at the gates and gain speed. Every one here that are in the same situation as I am "wondering" and trying to find out whats it all about have all the right in the world to remain in dissbelief untill pumping theory is proved to be right. All we ask for is for you or someone else to explain and show some photos or videos. Simplyfast is new here and we have great respect for his input. Dont be offended by our dissbelief. Like you said, this is just a normal skiing conversation that is supposed to be fun and educative. Ive learned that I did not know anything before I came here and that is thousands of posts ago. The only thing that I have sofar learned is that there is so much more to learn.
post #107 of 192
Simplyfast,

I like most of your posts and thoughts and it's obvious that english is not your first language - so some of the "confusion" or discussion, or disagreement may just be language.
post #108 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
jdistefa, good post. Thanks for stepping in with great input.
I have to sneak out of the bootfitting area once in a while .

One more, just because it's such a good pic....
525x525px-LL-vbattach4157.jpg
post #109 of 192
Thread Starter 
simplyfast, a couple of things come to mind that we need to consider and take in account:

First, an extended outside leg in skiing does not mean an absolutely extended leg. The definition of "leg extention" does not refer to maximum available extention but rather to the maximum extention we ever use. So in other words the leg would be always a little flexed. For instance Nyberg has much more maximum extention in his legs compared to Quay. Maximum extention is individual and results in personal style.

Second, you are completely right. Extention if any at all does not necessarily have to be more than just a hint or even visual. What if the "push" is an active attemt at resisting centrifugal force and gravity. If so, then we might be talking about the same thing but with other words. Sofar we have only stated that the outside foot is extended but we have never said that we do not push or use muscles to resist forces. Offcourse we do. So maybe one conclusion would be that we need to find out exactly what happens at apex. What kind of leg movements. Here we tangent annother issue I have been trying to find an answere to and that is how upright our boots should be in order to fine tune extention and particulary the maximum extention at apex while carving.
post #110 of 192
tdk6, precisely.

What I've been saying all along -- the "push" is just continued extension. The "push" is the work you need to do to remain extended as the turn forces rapidly build. The idea of "jumping" keeps you from the back seat.
post #111 of 192
Oh then that is a lot better. Extended leg I thought meant fully stretched. That by the way has been tried consciously in 1985 and did not go anywhere since it moved your outer leg back, you could not absorb anything and it restricted your mobility. "Skeletal stability" happens partially unvoluntarily or is of course used, but it is again situation depending and you should never compensate for your mobility. Something I do not preach because it varies again from skier to skier. They do that themselves and I think even the juniors would decide that too.

But apart from that like tdk6 asked if "pumping" is part of skiing. My answer is yes, it is absolute part of it. Since this is the only way that you can change your edges. (Again work with me here, I do not say how much it has to be done. It could be just the slightest move to roll your ankles over, but you still have to rise some) The only alternative is to go down and unweigh, but it is not practiced often, but it does not hurt to know it exists.
And I liked what you said about the "push". When the forces are that high you cannot even detect that the skier comes up when he is about to exit the turn, thus the knees stay bent quite a bit. And consider that, if your leg happens to be stretched too much coming out of the turn, you have very little margin to push up, therefore a possible loss of speed and you could loose your ideal line when you need it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
tdk6, precisely.

What I've been saying all along -- the "push" is just continued extension. The "push" is the work you need to do to remain extended as the turn forces rapidly build. The idea of "jumping" keeps you from the back seat.
post #112 of 192
Thread Starter 
simplyfast, wikipedia:
The prefix hyper- is sometimes added to emphasize movement beyond the normal position.

Fully extended in skiing is extention as far as it is normally done, not as far as ultimately possilbe. That would be hyperextention. But that is personal. Also to the degree of being non functional if you have a tendency to extend beyond functional.

I think you should check out the consepts of ILE and OLF. There are loads of threads discussing these consepts and the movements used. Even though they are target for massive arguments they are still valid ways of braking down consepts into movements and kinetic chains. For me all of this was new before starting to participate in forums like epic.

For instance you are saying that the only way you can chage edges is pumping. Then you say that there is an alternative and that is down unweighing but that it is not often practiced. This gives the impression that the main way of changing edges is pumping. That would mean most people do it. That would mena people pump without knowing it. That would mean its the same thing as something else..... that would mean common ground simplyfast.
post #113 of 192
Well why don't you go skiing and watch exactly what you do. Try to avoid going up and roll your skis over. See what happens. And I assume you do not know how to down unweigh, most people just have never even heard about that.
I think you can give the best answer to yourself by practicing all those things. It is just part of being a coach. I know that I will.

Anyhow, we are starting to travel soon, have to leave for quite some time.

You guys have fun out there.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
simplyfast, wikipedia:
The prefix hyper- is sometimes added to emphasize movement beyond the normal position.

Fully extended in skiing is extention as far as it is normally done, not as far as ultimately possilbe. That would be hyperextention. But that is personal. Also to the degree of being non functional if you have a tendency to extend beyond functional.

I think you should check out the consepts of ILE and OLF. There are loads of threads discussing these consepts and the movements used. Even though they are target for massive arguments they are still valid ways of braking down consepts into movements and kinetic chains. For me all of this was new before starting to participate in forums like epic.

For instance you are saying that the only way you can chage edges is pumping. Then you say that there is an alternative and that is down unweighing but that it is not often practiced. This gives the impression that the main way of changing edges is pumping. That would mean most people do it. That would mena people pump without knowing it. That would mean its the same thing as something else..... that would mean common ground simplyfast.
post #114 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Well why don't you go skiing and watch exactly what you do. Try to avoid going up and roll your skis over. See what happens. And I assume you do not know how to down unweigh, most people just have never even heard about that.
I think you can give the best answer to yourself by practicing all those things. It is just part of being a coach. I know that I will.

Anyhow, we are starting to travel soon, have to leave for quite some time.

You guys have fun out there.
What do you mean by "going up"? Are you talking about extention or the CoM moving up vertically in reference to snow? Also, there are quite a few definitions on down-unweighting. What is yours?

BTW you dont need to unweight to change edges in carving. You simply roll your skis on an edge. That is what is causing all the problems on steeps, in powder, bumps and difficult snow conditions for modern skiers that never learned to unweight. Type the video I showd you earlier with the kids and the coach in powder.
post #115 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Anyhow, we are starting to travel soon, have to leave for quite some time.
Where are you going that doesent have internet?
post #116 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Today I was presented with a theory that modern racers make a short down ward push at the gate. Its not angulation, its more like bending the knees. It was demoed to me by a ski coach on inliners. He picked up speed every time he turned. He said that in skiing you gain speed this way at ever gate insted of loosing speed. He was gaining speed every time he turned. His whole body whent up and down. Down at apex and up at transition. What do you guys think? This guy was very fast on inliners.
Just wondering if it is possible to get an exact description of the relevant movements and even bettter, a demo vid, from your friend?

I tried on inline. It doesnt seem working for me if I just push downward along the cuff at the apex when doing slalom emulating skiing.
post #117 of 192
Thread Starter 
carver_hk, took us over a 100 posts for someone to come up with this brilliant ide. This is offcourse what we should have done right from the beginning. But I have no way of doing it right now. Maybe next summer.
post #118 of 192
Here is a screen capture from Michael Von Grueningen's last race - sorry about it being fuzzy.


I think this is what simplyfast is talking about. Michael is at the apex - slightly flexed outside leg - he will then 'push down' to get more spring/rebound out of the ski.

Most of the stop-frame pictures in the above posts do not capture the 'moment' or are from the wrong angle.

The full video is:



Incredible insight from simplyfast.
post #119 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSS View Post
Michael is at the apex - slightly flexed outside leg - he will then 'push down' to get more spring/rebound out of the ski.
I really have to disagree with this. One shouldn't confuse resisting and then moving with the equipment as it unloads with "pushing down".

As has been written about ad nauseum, you can certainly use a pumping/pushing down movement to generate speed (trampoline effect) at lower speeds, and on the flats, but at speed on the pitch it's all about loading through tipping and resistance. There's certainly a natural suppleness/suspension in the legs and often eccentric resistance to pressure, but I would never coach someone to "push down" on the ski at the apex.

FWIW, I cannot appreciate the Von "pushing down" on the ski in the video. Great skiing though .
post #120 of 192
I watched this video 3 times and I can't see a push happening either. But I don't have time to slow it down right now and look at it frame by frame. This could be so subtle that we just won't be able to see it.

The way to tell would be if after apex if he is continuing to extend the outside leg.

in my view, after apex is when the greatest amount of G forces are acting on the skier. If the skier maintains a strong extended outside leg, then those G forces will be captured and push the skier in the new direction. If the skier begins to flex the outside leg after apex, then he will be absorbing some of those forces like a shock absorber and the forces will be less effective in catapulting the skier to the other side.

I think the name of the game is getting the outside leg stacked and rigid at the apex in order to capture those forces after the apex.

Now if someone is not fully extended at apex, could they continue to extend after the apex as those G forces begin to catapult the skier? That seems to be what is being implied here by simplyfast and GSS.

Personally I'm not seeing it so far in any videos of pics that have been provided. However, I can see the possibility how if it were timed perfectly tiny little extending push at just the right moment could increase the forces that would subsequently be harvested by an extended outside leg.

I'm definitely not seeing anyone that has an extended outside leg at apex first allow it to flex and then extend it again in order to push out. If its happening at all, its such that they are simply not as extended as much as they might be at the apex(which means not fully stacked there), and then just after the apex in preparation for the biggest jolt of G forces, they extend fully with a push, and with just the right timing I suppose in theory they could create more G forces and be extended out just in time for the greatest G forces of the turn to catapult them to the other side.

I'm speculating wildly here, because aside from the fact that a few people are saying this is so, there is nothing in any of these pictures or videos that demonstrates to me.
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