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To Bounce or Not to Bounce? - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Simply,

Don't be quite so absolute. In the vast number of cases you are correct, releasing the edge of the ski will result in a lessening of pressure felt between my foot and the snow. But I can think of several cases where I can feel the edge change and sense no lessening of the pressure but actually feel the pressure increase through the edge change. Here is one.

I'm moving to the right onto a bump, I intend to get air off the bump so I won't use a lot of absorption. As I ride up the surface of the bump and feel the pressure under my feet build I roll across the sole of my left foot from the big toe side to the little toe side starting the turn to left that I intend to the land the air in. I feel the pressure build throughout this process until my skis leave the snow.

There is one absolute essential that must take place in every transition. The edges must change sides. We have a huge number of ways to accomplish this. The more ways we can change edges the better skiers we are.

fom
post #32 of 59
I am not sure if I understand your scenario well enough, but it sounds as if you land on your bump with the flat portion of your skis already, meaning you could change to either side. Prior to that you have already released your skis in order to get there. A huge number of ways? What do you mean by that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
Simply,

Don't be quite so absolute. In the vast number of cases you are correct, releasing the edge of the ski will result in a lessening of pressure felt between my foot and the snow. But I can think of several cases where I can feel the edge change and sense no lessening of the pressure but actually feel the pressure increase through the edge change. Here is one.

I'm moving to the right onto a bump, I intend to get air off the bump so I won't use a lot of absorption. As I ride up the surface of the bump and feel the pressure under my feet build I roll across the sole of my left foot from the big toe side to the little toe side starting the turn to left that I intend to the land the air in. I feel the pressure build throughout this process until my skis leave the snow.

There is one absolute essential that must take place in every transition. The edges must change sides. We have a huge number of ways to accomplish this. The more ways we can change edges the better skiers we are.

fom
post #33 of 59

Traverse

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
First on a bike the tires are rounded. Second it is the same thing.
Some tires are squarish and work quite well anyway. So what?

Quote:
It is actually very simple, so without trying to be too analytical maybe you can follow that:
So here I'll paraphrase:

"In a turn you have [undisclosed mysterious] forces working towards the outside, whether you are on a bike or a ski/board [and without regard to turn phase or technique]. On skis you will also have gravity working on you [as distinct from the bike or the board, which are exempt from gravity]. As you exit your turn and go into a traverse...."

This is a good place to pause. The traverse.

Continuing:

"[T]hose [undisclosed mysterious] forces will lessen, thus pressure/weight that rests on your equipment has lessened as well [because pressure/weight are less in the traverse than they are in, say, the turn initiaion]. Therefore we consider that process [it's a process, not a freaking turn folks] as an unweighting [usurping now the old and formerly well-understood term for a technique which we'll now redefine into oblivion]. It has to happen in order to enter the next turn, otherwise you would continue your turn [which would carry skiers up the hill instead of down, so look for this error on the bunny hill next time you ski.]"

Woof.

Quote:
Now I do hope that you implement something like a pole touch/support and maybe one day additional ankle/knee flex to make things a bit easier. But that is left open in this conversation.
I wait with baited breath for your pole touch and angle/knee discussion.
post #34 of 59
I start up the bump on my right edges, I switch to my left edges before I get to the top of the bump and get air. Because I don't absorb the pressure builds under my feet as a result of momentum and the terrain. I change edges while the pressure constantly increases. No unweighting.

fom
post #35 of 59
Simplyfast,

The word you are looking for is "unloading".
post #36 of 59
Just for my own knowledge is "bouncing" transition simmilar to or the same thing as crossover? What are the differences?
post #37 of 59
Hmm in your first post you said you'd absorb the pressure just a little. That is very important as it is a way to unweight your skis. Could you clarify if you do or do not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
I start up the bump on my right edges, I switch to my left edges before I get to the top of the bump and get air. Because I don't absorb the pressure builds under my feet as a result of momentum and the terrain. I change edges while the pressure constantly increases. No unweighting.

fom
post #38 of 59
Another word for that? You guys are killing me. Could you please tell me if and what the differences are that you make with those words?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Simplyfast,

The word you are looking for is "unloading".
post #39 of 59
Unload: To reduce the forces on the skis.

When we stop resisting turn forces the skis will unload and the turn radius will increase. Loading bends the skis, while unloading straightens them. eg. Lowering edge angles and allowing the body to topple downhill like a sack of potatoes will unload the skis.

Unweight: To create a state of less than bodyweight acting on the skis.

When we extend, we will have less than bodyweight on the skis from the height of our extension until we "catch" our body again. This is up-unweighting.

When we retract/flex aggressively, our bodies free-fall without support. This is down-unweighting.

We ALWAYS unload our skis between turns or as you say, we will continue to turn. We may or may not unweight our skis during transition -- we may just topple onto our new set of edges like a sack of potatoes.
post #40 of 59
Oh thanks. I will try to use those words for that case, unloading is the better definition then since it describes less of a movement and less weight off the skis.

Sorry to bother you, but where does "release" fall into then? Would you use it the same way as for unload?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Unload: To reduce the forces on the skis.

When we stop resisting turn forces the skis will unload and the turn radius will increase. Loading bends the skis, while unloading straightens them. eg. Lowering edge angles and allowing the body to topple downhill like a sack of potatoes will unload the skis.

Unweight: To create a state of less than bodyweight acting on the skis.

When we extend, we will have less than bodyweight on the skis from the height of our extension until we "catch" our body again. This is up-unweighting.

When we retract/flex aggressively, our bodies free-fall without support. This is down-unweighting.

We ALWAYS unload our skis between turns or as you say, we will continue to turn. We may or may not unweight our skis during transition -- we may just topple onto our new set of edges like a sack of potatoes.
post #41 of 59
There are two uses of the term release. This is not surprising, as we are managing the paths of two separate things, each can be released from their arc.

1) To release the center of mass from it's arc.
2) To release the skis from their arc.

#2 is also called "releasing the edges".

Movements like Outside Leg Relaxation release the center of mass.
Movements like flattening the skis release the edges.

I hope this helps.
post #42 of 59
Well said BigE.
post #43 of 59
Oh ok, so let me try that.

You need to unload your skis in order to release your edges.

How does that sound. English or still foreign?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
There are two uses of the term release. This is not surprising, as we are managing the paths of two separate things, each can be released from their arc.

1) To release the center of mass from it's arc.
2) To release the skis from their arc.

#2 is also called "releasing the edges".

Movements like Outside Leg Relaxation release the center of mass.
Movements like flattening the skis release the edges.

I hope this helps.
post #44 of 59
Perhaps better: In order to release your edges you must allow the cm to come across the skis and for this to happen you must remove the sideways loading ( but you may maintian a vertical load on the skis if you wish).
post #45 of 59
Sometimes this language cracks me up. But very defined, thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Perhaps better: In order to release your edges you must allow the cm to come across the skis and for this to happen you must remove the sideways loading ( but you may maintian a vertical load on the skis if you wish).
post #46 of 59
I guarantee the communications would be much harder if I were in German this doing.
post #47 of 59
I do NOT speak German, here is an automatic Babelfish translation. Does this work?

Es gibt zwei Gebräuche von der Ausdruckfreigabe. Dieses ist nicht, da wir die Wege von zwei verschiedenen Sachen handhaben, jedes kann von ihrem Bogen freigegeben werden überraschend.

1) Zu die Mitte der Masse von seinem Bogen freigeben.
2) Zu die Skis von ihrem Bogen freigeben.

#2 wird auch " genannt; Freigeben des edges".

Bewegungen wie äußeres Bein-Entspannung geben die Mitte von Mass. frei. Bewegungen wie das Flachdrücken der Skis geben die Ränder frei.

Ich hoffe, dass dieses hilft.
post #48 of 59
and back to English...
There are two customs of the expression release. This is not surprising, since we handle the ways of two different things, everyone can by its sheet be released. 1) Release the center to the mass of its sheet. 2) To the skis of their sheet release. #2 is also " called; Release edges". Movements such as exterior leg relaxation give the center of measure. freely. Movements like photolithographies of the skis release the edges. I hope that this helps.

How many times can we put this through babblefish before it is unrecognizable. LOL.
post #49 of 59
You know the joke:

English: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Russian: The vodka's good but the meat stinks.
post #50 of 59
After another round, this stabilized. It found a "minima" of sorts, so that once two successive translations were the same, it would no longer change.

There are two habits of the expression release. This is not, since we treat the ways of two different things, everyone can by its sheet surprisingly be released. 1) release the center of the mass of its sheet. 2) to the skis of their sheet release. #2 is also " marked; Give edges" freely. Movements like external leg relaxation give the center of the measure. freely. Movements like optical lithographies of the skis release the edges. I hope that this helps.
post #51 of 59

Release/Unweight/Unload/Let Go/Give Up/No More

Good thread on the original subject. I have a lot of trouble following some of the very technical threads but this one was very beneficial, thankyou all.

UNTIL. It devolved into Semantical word games. My intent is not to offend any of the wordsmiths just an observation.
post #52 of 59
simplyfast,

I think the confusion here is the terminology rather than the idea. What you describe as weighting or unweighting, I would describe as loading and unloading the ski.

Loading is the stress applied to a ski on edge through a turn and unloading is what happens when the ski is flattened and the stress is relieved.

Weighting is the force applied to a ski by the skiers mass when gravity is applied and unweighting is reducing the force applied by a movement either at the top of an upward extension, or while quickly retracting the skis toward the body of the skier.

RW
post #53 of 59
simplyfast,

Quote:
You need to unload your skis in order to release your edges.
post #54 of 59
Do you have to unload the ski?

What about "weighted releases?"
post #55 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
I start up the bump on my right edges, I switch to my left edges before I get to the top of the bump and get air. Because I don't absorb the pressure builds under my feet as a result of momentum and the terrain. I change edges while the pressure constantly increases. No unweighting.
Nice. That early edge transition works well, doesn't it.
post #56 of 59
I can't believe no one has discussed up unweighting vs. down unweighting.

Hint: One is quicker than the other, but not as easy to maintain. Both may be archaic but are good tools to have, and many a good skier throws them in here and there as conditons require. They were a big deal when skis needed a lot of coaxing to turn.
post #57 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph View Post
If Rolling a weighted board to a new edge effects a direction change every time, even on older gear.
Yes, this would be a good definition of release. it is a lateral movement.

..and, I agree with you.
post #58 of 59
]

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Oh ok, so let me try that.

You need to unload your skis in order to release your edges.
OR is that releasing your edges unloads the ski?

Technically there is no up or down movement needed to go from one set of edges to the other. Going from one set of edges to the other will affect direction. That being said, you can move in essentially four directions and it works best when they are blended. So, some up or down movement (combined with forward for that matter), however slight will aid in edge change (rolling to new edges) but is not a technical necessity.
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
I can't believe no one has discussed up unweighting vs. down unweighting.

Hint: One is quicker than the other, but not as easy to maintain. Both may be archaic but are good tools to have, and many a good skier throws them in here and there as conditons require. They were a big deal when skis needed a lot of coaxing to turn.
Absolutely 100% agree. The key being good tools to have. This statement does not refer to either being a technical imperative.
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