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Gurshman article - Page 4

post #91 of 111
If there is the slightest sign of an Inclination in SL, you just wont have any time to correct that error there. In GS if the terrain is not all too steep, you can recover, but you certainly will loose that time. If the US or CDN moves to that direction, then I am not sure if they will keep the same success with that.

A very good way to observe is the athlete's torso or upper body. Even though the ride may look wild, if the torso is isolated and kept still and facing constant downhill you know the racer is having a great time.

If you watch a Marcel Hirscher or Jens Bygmark, they go to the absolute limit with their balance, but they are ever so close to sliding away. (Like everyone else really) And that happens many times. But both show great angulation in their style.

If you stand straight up and "lean" to the right or left you will notice that it wont take much to loose balance. If you are doing that on one leg, then the margin is even smaller.
That should give you a good idea how close you are to disaster going downhill on an ever changing terrain and stay in balance with the forces.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Both the Canadians and the Americans use the term inclination in their skiing. Coaches from both teams highlight that "GS-like" inclination has filtered down into SL.

Are they taking the wrong path ?
post #92 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
If there is the slightest sign of an Inclination in SL, you just wont have any time to correct that error there. In GS if the terrain is not all too steep, you can recover, but you certainly will loose that time. If the US or CDN moves to that direction, then I am not sure if they will keep the same success with that.

A very good way to observe is the athlete's torso or upper body. Even though the ride may look wild, if the torso is isolated and kept still and facing constant downhill you know the racer is having a great time.

If you watch a Marcel Hirscher or Jens Bygmark, they go to the absolute limit with their balance, but they are ever so close to sliding away. (Like everyone else really) And that happens many times. But both show great angulation in their style.

If you stand straight up and "lean" to the right or left you will notice that it wont take much to loose balance. If you are doing that on one leg, then the margin is even smaller.
That should give you a good idea how close you are to disaster going downhill on an ever changing terrain and stay in balance with the forces.
The subject of angulation vs inclination has been discussed ad nauseam at this forum. Check the archives. Tne general concensus is that angulaion is not sufficient to achieve the extrem edge angles of todays high speed turns.
Besides, saying Jens Byggmerk does not use it (inclination) is simply wr..., well I will be polite and say ; Es entspricht nicht den Tatsachen
post #93 of 111
If conditions are very good you dont have to angulate early on in the turn as long as you are balanced over the outside ski. That is the main criteria. When you add angulation or upper body counter you also add edge angles. You dont always want to use that resourse too early on in the turn especially if you are skiing with short pressure. Also, when you are facing downhill with your upper body you will be heavily anticipated at the beginning of a turn, the opposite of being countered. Keep your upper body calm and let your skis cross back and forth underneath you. At some stage you might be inclined but in the pressure phase of the turn you will offcourse add angulation and upper body counter proggressively as needed.
post #94 of 111
I see what you mean with angulation/inclination. I think this entire move is a product of the carving ski, because it has made this (inclination)far more easy for the mass.
But I have to tell you that angulation has been the recipe for success, not "inclination" which I think is a terrible word to use. But I guess that is just me.
I keep repeating that, but the reason is that "Inclination" causes delays amongst other things and also you are not able to get enough weight to your outside ski in order to hold the edge.
See the edge angle alone is not responsible that makes the ski carve a tight curve. You will need to consider that the weight on the ski makes it flex and is therefore a big factor for carving a turn. Besides, the carving ski has allowed the skier to get his/her skis much further out on your body, meaning your angulation has increased and with that the edge angle. But it cannot be seen as an inclination.
Just like the example I gave earlier with the Instructor demonstrating, although it looks the same it is simply not.

Another way of pointing all this out would be to say if you have two of the same models of skis with the same torsional strength, but one with a soft and the other with a stiff flex, ski them the same way and you wont be able to carve the same radius. Also be aware that the radius of the GS Skis has changed yet again to 28m, which makes the factor of angulation even more important.
Since you speak deutsch, a friend of mine has a book called "Carven", it is very well explained in there. I wish I could translate that all in english for everyone else. But I can recommend that to you. I think it would be another great treasure since it also contains a great DVD.

About Bygmark, yes he angulates and does not inclinate. Many times when he does, he is going for a "nap on the slope" just ask him how many times he fell on race day or on practice...

We as coaches have to differenciate and filter out a clear and crisp way for our athletes, whether they are in the WC or just start out.
We need to seek out the core moves of alpine skiing which we have to teach. Once we have guided them to excellent skiers, it is also left for them to explore further. But many who leave the boundaries of the basics will have to get back to the drawing board. Happens all the time, even to the best.
Danke dass du mich darauf aufmerksam gemacht hast.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
The subject of angulation vs inclination has been discussed ad nauseam at this forum. Check the archives. Tne general concensus is that angulaion is not sufficient to achieve the extrem edge angles of todays high speed turns.
Besides, saying Jens Byggmerk does not use it (inclination) is simply wr..., well I will be polite and say ; Es entspricht nicht den Tatsachen
post #95 of 111
Seems that your english is far better than mine. I think I stick better to german.

Greetings to the finish team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
If conditions are very good you dont have to angulate early on in the turn as long as you are balanced over the outside ski. That is the main criteria. When you add angulation or upper body counter you also add edge angles. You dont always want to use that resourse too early on in the turn especially if you are skiing with short pressure. Also, when you are facing downhill with your upper body you will be heavily anticipated at the beginning of a turn, the opposite of being countered. Keep your upper body calm and let your skis cross back and forth underneath you. At some stage you might be inclined but in the pressure phase of the turn you will offcourse add angulation and upper body counter proggressively as needed.
post #96 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post

Without poles:

hold both hands over infront of you and over the outside ski as you turn-make the switch as you turn

grab the outer side of your boot while you turn with the outer hand. (almost reach toward the back side) Drag your upper body with your arm move towards the outside, don't just bend your knees and bent down. What I mean is that many will try to lean forward only, but you'll need to go sideways. Keep the inner hand up and forward. Have somebody watch you.

With poles:

Javelin is excellent really, lift the ski rather in the rear, not in the front. you do not have to cross the inner ski with the outer by much.

Draw circles with your poles, meaning reach with your outer pole as far out as possible and touch the snow (draw actual circles in the snow) while your inner hand holds your pole upward/forward.

Hold your poles infront of you apart and up in the sky. Form a "window" and make sure you only look straight down the hill between the poles, never outside of them.

Put your arms together with your poles held up again and "lay" them infront over your outer ski while you turn.

The trick is that it is more difficult to lean over your hips sideways than forward. Forward is no good, it will neutralize it all. if possible, have somebody watch you. try to lift up your inner ski at any given moment in the turn. Just to self check.

I hope that helps.
Thanks very much. I'll give these a try.
post #97 of 111
you are welcome. What I forgot to mention is that when you "draw the circle" or do the window, hold your poles like a sword in your hands.

hope that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
Thanks very much. I'll give these a try.
post #98 of 111
simplyfast, your english is great. BTW, the Carving book you mentioned.... I have a copy right here. Funny but it was mentioned by me not long ago in some thread here at epic. Its written by Hermann Wallner. Its an older copy with the title "Carven Skilauf Perfect". Thanks for mentioning the DVD, just orderd one. My german is very bad but I have been able to read through the book and actually think I understood something of it .

Anyway, very interesting to hear your viewpoint on ski technique and nice to have somebody with great intructing and coaching skills from Austria here at epic. Im Austrian old school breed myselfe and spent a lot of time in the Alps over the years. I actually hired an Austrian instructor to our ski school two years ago, I have the highest respect for Austrian instructors and coaches.
post #99 of 111
Angulation/inclination,,, it's all about balance. You use what you need to achieve the balance state you desire. The more you angulate, the more you move weight to the outside foot. The bigger the edge angle you use, the more angulation will be required. That's why inclination early in the turn can work, and why folding (angulating) into the higher edge angle as you hit the apex is so necessary.

post #100 of 111
Interesting article. Greg is a sharp guy, and does a great job at his website. His observations on weighting the inside ski at the end of the turn seem to me to be another approach to describing a classic ILE transition. This is exactly what happens in ILE. Notice that there is an associated reduction in edge angle and turn radius with the transfer of pressure to the inside ski at the end of the turn. This is because the pressure transfer is not accompanied by a balance transfer. The pressure transfer simply starts the process of moving the CM into the new turn.

The diverging/converging skis thing is something i spoke about long ago here. it's a compensation option for the differing inside/outside edge angles that are common in big angle turns. You don't see it in every turn, because there are other ways to compensate too,,, but you do see it in many.

By transferring to a converging inside ski at the end of a turn, it's basically just a form of a stem turn. Think about it. Where time is not of the essence, a directional adjustment can be made to the old inside ski before pressure transfer. There are so many options available. Learn them all,,, learn to use them all.
post #101 of 111
Great contribution to all that.
I would like to add that we in Austria distinguish clearly that at the exit of the turn/initiation of the new turn we move up/forward and down into the hill which is many times supported by the pole touch (plant). However, once you incline you are no longer in balance with the forces and you about to move away from the outside ski as you approach the apex of the turn. Once that happens, the skier is in trouble.
So because of that it is important to us that we keep that apart. It just helps to clarify those matters.

te=Rick;988839]Angulation/inclination,,, it's all about balance. You use what you need to achieve the balance state you desire. The more you angulate, the more you move weight to the outside foot. The bigger the edge angle you use, the more angulation will be required. That's why inclination early in the turn can work, and why folding (angulating) into the higher edge angle as you hit the apex is so necessary.

[/quote]
post #102 of 111
What, Manni's Book is also in Finland? He is going to get a kick out of that. I think you are going to enjoy the DVD, because to see the drills may give you some new ways to explain things. (The Instructors keep the skis a bit too close) You may find it interesting to know that his book exists also in the Polish language and in Japanese.
I was actually supposed to translate that all in english, but even though I know all that stuff, I somehow cannot do that. I have tried that in endless hours just to discard it all again. Very hard to do. I think it needs to be someone that speaks english as the mother language. Or how about you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
simplyfast, your english is great. BTW, the Carving book you mentioned.... I have a copy right here. Funny but it was mentioned by me not long ago in some thread here at epic. Its written by Hermann Wallner. Its an older copy with the title "Carven Skilauf Perfect". Thanks for mentioning the DVD, just orderd one. My german is very bad but I have been able to read through the book and actually think I understood something of it .

Anyway, very interesting to hear your viewpoint on ski technique and nice to have somebody with great intructing and coaching skills from Austria here at epic. Im Austrian old school breed myselfe and spent a lot of time in the Alps over the years. I actually hired an Austrian instructor to our ski school two years ago, I have the highest respect for Austrian instructors and coaches.
post #103 of 111
I bought the book in St Anton a few years back. My german is not really good enough for translating it into english but what we should do is do it together. We could try with one chapter. Send me a PM.

BTW, this is my Bible:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=A3FC708F
post #104 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Angulation/inclination,,, it's all about balance. You use what you need to achieve the balance state you desire. The more you angulate, the more you move weight to the outside foot. The bigger the edge angle you use, the more angulation will be required. That's why inclination early in the turn can work, and why folding (angulating) into the higher edge angle as you hit the apex is so necessary.

Angulation serves IMO three main purposes: it increases edge angles, it moves our weight to the outside ski and it improves our balancing. Just like Rick notes here above, early in the high-c phase when we are extending into the turn we do not benefit from angulation, necessarily. Angulation is a quicker way of increasing edge angles but your range is limietd. Since it is coupled to balancing and outside ski pressure its not necessarily efficient to use it early on. Thats why you should first incline and delay angulation untill later on in the turn when pressure is increasing and centrifugal force and gravity starts pulling you in same direction. Something forces dont do at the top of the turn. On top of the turn you let gravity pull your upper body into the turn. You do that by extending while the centrifugal force is building up. Thats what I have been thaught (in Austria). You want the skis to cut back in under you as you come into the fall line (SL) and suddenly you are re-centered and in balance. And angulated, in balance, with outside ski pressure.
post #105 of 111
I'm going to take a shot on the angulation/inclination/banking thing.

As I learned it we naturally start with angulation and move to inclination when angulation isn't enough to accomplish what we need. We do not DO inclination.

We DO banking, and for the most part it's almost always considered an error.

Think about internal/external forces (or big and little forces if you prefer). We do align our bodies (internal/little force) in order to angulate but as speed/momemtum etc increases we inclinate (external/big force) naturally. This I always assumed to be correct.

When banking we use our body to lean into the turn (internal/little force). Since we use the body to "create and angle" if you will, we must mentally calculate just how far to lean in at a given speed. Most of us, just can't effectivly manage this. It's most always considered an effor, though there are times in a race course when the body needs to be "thrown over" if you will, in order to recover and finish the course.

I agree with simplyfast (post 91) where he says "
If there is the slightest sign of an Inclination in SL, you just wont have any time to correct that error there.", but don't consider inclination an error, just the wrong tactic for slalom, for the reason he stated.

I also agree with biowolf when he said (post 92), "The general concensus is that angulaion is not sufficient to achieve the extreme edge angles of todays high speed turns."

As the slalom simplyfast mentioned is not a high speed turn, there should be no need (or maybe a slight need - course change perhaps?) for inclination in a Slalom course.

Summing up....always angulation. Inclination when it happens naturally as a result of angulaton combined with force and speed. Banking.....maybe if you need and emergency move (but other than that....nope)
post #106 of 111
Let me guess...."Der weisse Rausch" mit Hannes Schneider? Yes, "bend se knees", see it is still used today after 100 years. Cool stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I bought the book in St Anton a few years back. My german is not really good enough for translating it into english but what we should do is do it together. We could try with one chapter. Send me a PM.

BTW, this is my Bible:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=A3FC708F
post #107 of 111
Another good comment from Oncle Louie.

Want to bring another scenario to all that since SL was mentioned. First a few years ago when the max. distance was 15 m from gate to gate we had top speeds at about 70km/h. That was pretty much insane. Enter a Flash or hairpin in that speed, it is a lot of fun. At least they slowed it down somewhat with the 13 m. max.
But if you as a coach talk to that SL specialist about delays and inclination, you may not only loose the trust of your athlete but also your job very soon.
All this theory can be applied at a suitable situation in a DH, SG or maybe GS to a specific athlete and a specific gate combination, but you cannot present this as a generic technical term. It does not apply everywhere and at all times and I really recommend to use a total different approach.
Like I said, the secret of the austrians is that there is no secret. Just good solid and basic technique, great athletic and physical condition, coordination and the mind of a beserk. Yes you actually have to be nuts to ski down those icy steep pitches and actually still seek more speed. No time to delay anything in that , colleagues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie View Post
I'm going to take a shot on the angulation/inclination/banking thing.

As I learned it we naturally start with angulation and move to inclination when angulation isn't enough to accomplish what we need. We do not DO inclination.

We DO banking, and for the most part it's almost always considered an error.

Think about internal/external forces (or big and little forces if you prefer). We do align our bodies (internal/little force) in order to angulate but as speed/momemtum etc increases we inclinate (external/big force) naturally. This I always assumed to be correct.

When banking we use our body to lean into the turn (internal/little force). Since we use the body to "create and angle" if you will, we must mentally calculate just how far to lean in at a given speed. Most of us, just can't effectivly manage this. It's most always considered an effor, though there are times in a race course when the body needs to be "thrown over" if you will, in order to recover and finish the course.

I agree with simplyfast (post 91) where he says "
If there is the slightest sign of an Inclination in SL, you just wont have any time to correct that error there.", but don't consider inclination an error, just the wrong tactic for slalom, for the reason he stated.

I also agree with biowolf when he said (post 92), "The general concensus is that angulaion is not sufficient to achieve the extreme edge angles of todays high speed turns."

As the slalom simplyfast mentioned is not a high speed turn, there should be no need (or maybe a slight need - course change perhaps?) for inclination in a Slalom course.

Summing up....always angulation. Inclination when it happens naturally as a result of angulaton combined with force and speed. Banking.....maybe if you need and emergency move (but other than that....nope)
post #108 of 111
One thing that has not been mentioned sofar is stacking our bones. In SL it is not really necessary but in speed events it sometimes is.
post #109 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
Let me guess...."Der weisse Rausch" mit Hannes Schneider? Yes, "bend se knees", see it is still used today after 100 years. Cool stuff.
LOL, yes, not much has changed in 100y. Gear yes, and with gear modifications to techniqe but its still more or less the same stuff. Except before it used to be really difficult. Not anymore. Except it still is. People just dont know it. Back in the "bend ze nees" days angulation was everything. You could not turn if you did not angulate and counter. I bet if you strapped modern self claimed experts leatherboots onto 230 straight loggs you would be surpriced at how much rotation and banking people are really depending on.
post #110 of 111
Been lurking a while to see where all of this would go. Good information Simplyfast! Thanks for sharing it with us.
What I see here is a concensus that inclination isn't always the best way to get a ski on edge. Although unlike SF I don't see it as an error per se, just another arrow in our quiver that we need to use correctly (when appropriate). Just like every other ski movement we make, it needs to match the situation to be technically and tactically "correct".
Same can be said for angulation happening all the time. In the last photomontage (frame 4 and 5) we see part of a typical race turn. Since the skier is fully extended the joints of the body are not in a position to create any angulation. Leaving inclination as the only option at that point. As the path of the skis and the body begin to converge the options open up to include angulation because we are flexing those joints which is a necessary component of angulation. So the question that remains is if we want to limit our range of motion by not allowing the body to fully extend and thereby limiting how much angulation we can use? In a race I think a lot of it depends on the skier and their abilities. Consistently using their full range of motion while still maintaining accurate engagement of the outside ski is possible using a combination of both angulation and inclination. It isn't alway possible using either exclusively.
post #111 of 111
Thanks for commenting on all that. I like that point of a view a lot. I will try to stop by more often here. It is exactly true as you said it, a lot is depending on a given situation, the skill and physical ability of your racer, too. In a flat section you really don't want to be much higher than your binding and in the steeps, well how sharp are your edges? Further, how heavy are you and how strong are you in order to decide how far do you have to come up in order to "reload" your weight onto the new outside ski. Should you perhaps ski a section just by "up and unweighing" or should you perhaps combine "up anweighing/down unweighing. What do you as a coach present as part of the techinque and what do you put into tactics? You are going to be the one that has to explain it all. Again if you watch Soelden, the steep section is tactical a smart move, but techincally really closer to a disaster.
Many of those things have to also come from the racer to decide and that sometimes while they are on the course. There could be a gate or a combination that they did not ski well enough and have to rethink the tactic for the next few gates for example. So in all that you as a coach have to decide how much do you want to give your athletes to think about. How many tricky sections of the course do you want them to focus on etc. I mean we are talking about a sport that is very complex and so my point is if you keep it as clean and simple as possible, you may actually be the best of all.




Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Been lurking a while to see where all of this would go. Good information Simplyfast! Thanks for sharing it with us.
What I see here is a concensus that inclination isn't always the best way to get a ski on edge. Although unlike SF I don't see it as an error per se, just another arrow in our quiver that we need to use correctly (when appropriate). Just like every other ski movement we make, it needs to match the situation to be technically and tactically "correct".
Same can be said for angulation happening all the time. In the last photomontage (frame 4 and 5) we see part of a typical race turn. Since the skier is fully extended the joints of the body are not in a position to create any angulation. Leaving inclination as the only option at that point. As the path of the skis and the body begin to converge the options open up to include angulation because we are flexing those joints which is a necessary component of angulation. So the question that remains is if we want to limit our range of motion by not allowing the body to fully extend and thereby limiting how much angulation we can use? In a race I think a lot of it depends on the skier and their abilities. Consistently using their full range of motion while still maintaining accurate engagement of the outside ski is possible using a combination of both angulation and inclination. It isn't alway possible using either exclusively.
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