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How to get more fall line angle? - Page 4

post #91 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Wow, I think Im going to retire from this discussion. However, one more thing I like to say:

I restrict the word "extention" to the proper meaning of it. A movement of a joint that results in increased angle between two bones or body surfaces at a joint. In the case of the knee joint anything that causes the knee joint to "open up" I call extention.

Maybe we better start a new thread about extention and leave this thread for OP to try to get answeres regarding more fall line angle.

T
Sorry, i have to say I m seeing another finer or even another 'refined definition' of extension that don't seems adds anything to the discussion. Rather it make it more difficult to digest what was being discussed previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I was just trying to describe extention not an optimum knee angle
I dont mean to pick on you I merely think its an important figure and shouldn't be made a rough estimation.
post #92 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I thought 150deg is the minimum to avoid backseat
Knee flexion is one factor of a 3 part equation. Flexion at the ankle and waist must also be considered in the fore/aft balance story. Can you fore balance in a tuck, with your knees bent at over 90 degrees? You bet.

We don't need to ski with a protractor. We just need to keep in mind that long is strong, but a totally locked straight knee/leg is not an efficient skiing position. Skiing is dynamic, and there will always be flexion/extension movements happening as we go through transitions and turns. If we put our focus on our bottom of the foot awareness of our fore/aft balance and use ankle, knee and hip articulation in unison to maintain the fore/aft balance state we want through the entire skiing process, while keeping the long is strong principle in mind as a general guideline,,, all will be fine.
post #93 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I restrict the word "extention" to the proper meaning of it. A movement of a joint that results in increased angle between two bones or body surfaces at a joint. In the case of the knee joint anything that causes the knee joint to "open up" I call extention.
That would be fine by me.

Then, we can speak of the OUTCOMES of the movement, such as extending up, or extending actively/passively, extending in a particular direction....

Here's a question:

Can we first agree that "Extending into the turn" is an OUTCOME?

If so, then what movements do you make to "extend into the turn"?

I would first say that "extending into the turn" is basically equivalent to "extending in the direction that your boot cuffs are pointing".

So going backwards from the extension, we'd have to change the direction of the boot-cuffs -- knees moving inside .

And before that, we'd have

-1) the feet tipping the skis to the new edges into the turn.
-2) the skis flat with the body travelling over.
-3) the outside leg flexing to release the CM.

The recentering/directional movement between-2 and -3 is left out, since the momentum of the release could have allowed the center of mass (CM) to proceed in exactly the right direction.

That *release* of the CM is the origin of "getting higher angles at turn apex". Get that right, and the dance with the mountain flows effortlessly.
post #94 of 115
Rick.

Nice!
post #95 of 115
Actually, "extending into the turn" means that you "extend as you turn". It really does not say in which direction but the direction should offcourse be towards the center of the turn. This can only be done if boot cuffs are pointing in that direction. They need to get tilted that way but they get tilted that way automatically as our CoM travels over our skis and beyond causing inclination. BTW, outside leg extention begins when skis are tipped onto their new edges and ends somewhere nearby apex depending on circumstances.

http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=334C3E5D

Anyway, you are getting hung up on my definition. Fact is that no matter how you look at it extention takes place in the high-c part of the turn. The movement for recentering our CoM over the new outside ski for proper for/aft balance and to cause the extention of our outside leg is done by pulling our outside foot back. Thats how we extend our outside leg. The consept is "extending into the turn". Your consept might be different.

Now Im going to extend into bed .
post #96 of 115
The issue may be of timing.....Exactly ->when<- does this "extension into the turn" occur?

The way I read it is AFTER the edge change. Which is after/at initiation -- so the turn has begun.
post #97 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The issue may be of timing.....Exactly ->when<- does this "extension into the turn" occur?

The way I read it is AFTER the edge change. Which is after/at initiation -- so the turn has begun.
Thats how I see it. Like in the photo montage in previous post.
post #98 of 115
Feel free to slap me if I'm talking nonsense . tdk6 it sounds like you are trying to describe a cross under that allows the path of the skis to diverge from that of the cm. The leg extension starts in transition as the skis are allowed to continue on their path moving across the fall line. The start of the extension is what creates a momentary aft of center stance; it clears the feet and allows a clean projection of the hips down the hill. Extension continues as the turn develops and the the skis catch up with the CM (taking the longer path). Centering should occur naturally as the cm and skis converge again, but it can be helped by a somewhat diagonal projection. Bob Barnes has been talking about this same type of transition in quite a few posts...

Regardless of the kind of transition used, I think the key for the OP is to work on early edge engagement at the top of the turn to generate an arc where the maximum forces occur in the middle of the turn (and fairly perpendicular to the fall line). Doing this is the key to getting turn finish. If the forces occur at the bottom of the turn, it can be difficult to avoid blowing out and losing an edge. If the arc is properly located, the desired amount of turn completion can be achieved by simply continuing the turn across (and even back up) the fall line. Others have already noted both of these points, but they seem to have been lost in the transition discussion.
post #99 of 115
tdk6,

You've made yourself very clear. Thank you.
post #100 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffda View Post
it sounds like you are trying to describe a cross under that allows the path of the skis to diverge from that of the cm. The leg extension starts in transition as the skis are allowed to continue on their path moving across the fall line. The start of the extension is what creates a momentary aft of center stance; it clears the feet and allows a clean projection of the hips down the hill. Extension continues as the turn develops and the the skis catch up with the CM (taking the longer path). Centering should occur naturally as the cm and skis converge again, but it can be helped by a somewhat diagonal projection.
I don't understand how extension is going to put you back, or how the skis are going to catch up, as if it was the skis that were back.....Something not quite right....


I can see that if the extension was in the direction that the boot cuffs are pointing, then it would not put you back......
post #101 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I don't understand how extension is going to put you back, or how the skis are going to catch up, as if it was the skis that were back.....Something not quite right....


I can see that if the extension was in the direction that the boot cuffs are pointing, then it would not put you back......
As you finish your turn and your skis come square to the fall line, let them come out from underneath you. In order for that to happen, you have to start extending your legs (opening your knees). However, because your skis are coming out, this extension is horizontal, not vertical--that is your cm doesn't move up. And the amount of extension is limited by your boot cuff--most of it happens later. Anyway at that point, your hips are behind your skis. As your skis clear out from underneath you (and are heading away from you), you are starting to move inside--rolling ankles, knees and projecting the hips into the turn. This allows you complete the extension naturally as your skis start their arc away from your body. As the arc continues, your skis whip around to "catch up" with your cm as it moves down the hill. I think there is is a Ron LeMaster montage of Bode Miller doing this on downhill. Actually, there are a great many montages that demonstrate this, but in the Miller montage, it almost looks like his skis are over his head. If I get some time I'll go looking for it. Anyway, when done correctly (and I'm still a work in progress here) the sensation is one of falling. BTW, its dumping again!
post #102 of 115
geoffda,

No way are you gonna see this cowboy ride his horse that far back at turn initiation.
post #103 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
If we put our focus on our bottom of the foot awareness of our fore/aft balance and use ankle, knee and hip articulation in unison to maintain the fore/aft balance state we want through the entire skiing process, while keeping the long is strong principle in mind as a general guideline,,, all will be fine.
Thanks Rick!
post #104 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
No way are you gonna see this cowboy ride his horse that far back at turn initiation.
post #105 of 115
Thanks BigE for the laugh. I have to say, some of my most predictable, unpredictable moments on young horses have been during transitions from one gait to another. Ya just better be in balance for any directional change, cause it may not be the direction or speed ya planned !
post #106 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
sywsyw, Racing Department FIS sanwich skis - I would not have it any other way . They have a very fast base, incredible edge hold, snappy rebound and they can be skied as fast as you dare.

Could you please explain in more detail how you see the difference between cross under and cross over.

When you say your skis pivot into the next turn you probably do not mean that you pivot them into a skidd do you?

tdk6, cross under - minimal up and down movements
cross over - ample up and down movements
That is how i see it. Things should be pretty clear. What else do you want to know?

No, i was not referring to skidding.

Regarding WC skis, i do not believe that they should be the choice for non racers unless they have a very good technique. The difference can be seen on european reds (or steeper slopes) when most non-racers are gaining speed in almost every turn they make. I am looking for a non-wc ski which does not glide as fast as a wc ski. If i don't find it i will stay with what i have.
post #107 of 115
I think he means "angle of attack" like in GS it is very important where you set your turn. Ideal it would be right at the gate. In the older days you preached to "turn up high" at the gates and of course some still have to follow that tactic. The only problem with that is that the "angle of attack" from gate to gate becomes more flat and slows the skier down. The same thing would happen if you are also late at the gate and you get carried very deep down. To reach the next gate would only allow you a flat line. Again something that will slow you down. Is that what he means?



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What is "more fall line angle"? And why more fall line angle?
post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyfast View Post
I think he means "angle of attack" like in GS it is very important where you set your turn. Ideal it would be right at the gate. In the older days you preached to "turn up high" at the gates and of course some still have to follow that tactic. The only problem with that is that the "angle of attack" from gate to gate becomes more flat and slows the skier down. The same thing would happen if you are also late at the gate and you get carried very deep down. To reach the next gate would only allow you a flat line. Again something that will slow you down. Is that what he means?
I don't believe this is referencing a race course. Just freeskiing.
post #109 of 115
He means higher edge angles in the fall line.
post #110 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
He means higher edge angles in the fall line.
What Who means?
post #111 of 115
The original poster meant to say -- how do I get higher edge angle in the fall line?
post #112 of 115
On page 1 from the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I must apologies for the confusion. I ll restate as follow:

How to do an arc to arc turn so that the ski tips points more across the fall line?
post #113 of 115
My bad.
post #114 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
My bad.
Yep, he wants to finish his turns more perpendicular to the fall line is how I understood it.
post #115 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Yep, he wants to finish his turns more perpendicular to the fall line is how I understood it.
Yep. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, at my suggestion to him as a turn shape versatility training tool.

Falline angle equates to degree of turn,,, or,,, the angle your skis are to the falline at the time of turn completion. Skis straight down the falline is a 0 degree turn (0 degree falline angle). Finishing the turn with skis perpendicular to the fall is a 90 degree turn. Turning past the falline, to the point of actually going up hill can be a 100 turn, 120 turn, etc.

Great for working with students. Once you explain the concept, it's very easy to provide them an exact turn shape task you want them to perform. They do what you want,,, and they actually have to think about and be aware of what they are doing.

Patent pending.
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