or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › How to get more fall line angle?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

How to get more fall line angle? - Page 2

post #31 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Ghost - My turn shapes are unplanned. I merely want to go as fast as I could. So I start the OLR as soon as I enter the fall line to achieve minimum resistance to get downhill and prevent being pushed to a backseat. Rick reminded me I have a default of 45 degree angle. I guess its a result of trying to get as fast as I could. The answer now emerging is like I have to slow down in order to get a higher fall line angle. So how to slow down as little as possible while getting a higher fall line is probably the issue now.
I don't beleive the issue is slowing down as you have stated, the issue is not accelerating. the longer you are in or have less angle to the fall line the more you will accelerate.

In other words work on maintaining a constant speed by varying your line. speed control again to me means limiting accelration not slowing down.

Seems to me (and maybe I am wrong here) but this is should be very simple to resolve. Simply finish your turns more. Don't start the next turn until your skis are perpendicular to the fall line
post #32 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ster View Post
ILE is another one I've seen. Inside leg extension?
Thanks,

JF
Yes, I guess so. In fact I did some test on ILE technique lately. it seems ILE can get me up into more inclination in the upper_C. I m not sure if ILE can work with OLR though. Perhaps some pro can share their view.
post #33 of 115
Thread Starter 
Thanks Atomicman. will try.
post #34 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Yes, I guess so. In fact I did some test on ILE technique lately. it seems ILE can get me up into more inclination in the upper_C. I m not sure if ILE can work with OLR though. Perhaps some pro can share their view.
OLR does not mean that you need to be deeply flexed through out the transition. Its important that you remain balanced in the for aft plane and you do that easier if you are standing more upright. If you get in the back seat after relecing you automatically start the next turn in order to regain balance. This is ok if you are skiing tight SL type turns in gates and you want to minimize CoM vertical and lateral sideways movement and need to quickly reach out with your legs and ski arround a gate but that is a more advanced technique used by racers and mogul skiers. Before you get to that kind of skiing you should be able to master a2a with transition perpendicular to the fall line.

BTW, the WC skier in the video you posted does not turn perpendicular to the fall line. Not even close. It looks that way when he is filmed from ahead but if you look at the trax you will see that he is moving at maybe max 45deg to the fall line. And even if he turns more perpendicular he can gain speed from a turn, its not always loss of speed.
post #35 of 115
Are you suggesting being centered at transition?
post #36 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Are you suggesting being centered at transition?
Yes, it would make finnishing the turn easier. Like in GS turns.
post #37 of 115
This goal will limit your range of movement. It's all fine to do that if you're content to ski slow "ambassador turns", but OLR demands a true release -- or it's not OLR.

"Release" is what happens at turn completion -- the CM is released from it's arc, and it is FREE to move/float over the skis at transition. Without this release, the skier fights against the momentum of body. With this release, momentum works with the skier.

It is less important to stay centered here than it is to be centered by turn initiation. So once being cleanly released, the next goal is to recenter.

Can anyone suggest a move that you can use to start to get forward after you've completely released and are in a literal free-fall with very little ski pressure?
post #38 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
This goal will limit your range of movement. It's all fine to do that if you're content to ski slow "ambassador turns", but OLR demands a true release -- or it's not OLR.

"Release" is what happens at turn completion -- the CM is released from it's arc, and it is FREE to move/float over the skis at transition. Without this release, the skier fights against the momentum of body. With this release, momentum works with the skier.

It is less important to stay centered here than it is to be centered by turn initiation. So once being cleanly released, the next goal is to recenter.

Can anyone suggest a move that you can use to start to get forward after you've completely released and are in a literal free-fall with very little ski pressure?
Dive???
post #39 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
This goal will limit your range of movement. It's all fine to do that if you're content to ski slow "ambassador turns", but OLR demands a true release -- or it's not OLR.
Yes, that was the the ide, ambassador turns. Note that my suggestion was not to skip the relese. Simply take it a bit slower and stand a bit taller as an exersise in completing the turns more perpendicular to the fall line. Once you have mastered this you can move on to more advanced stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
"Release" is what happens at turn completion -- the CM is released from it's arc, and it is FREE to move/float over the skis at transition. Without this release, the skier fights against the momentum of body. With this release, momentum works with the skier.
You are suggesting that we do not fight the momentum of our body at transition! This remark sounds odd since if we let our body float without interuption or fighting forces we would be going DH straight in the fall line. That is an option for some but not if we want to finnish our turns perpendicular to the fall line. That would involve some fighting of the momentum of our body getting pulled down in the fall line as we start deviating from the fall line or? We should still relece but a bit later on in the turn. Let our skis point across or nearly across since as soon as we relese we start going straight especially if we are up to speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
It is less important to stay centered here than it is to be centered by turn initiation. So once being cleanly released, the next goal is to recenter.
Normally with OLR we should not strive to be fully extended at the top of the turn. We should extend into the turn. That means that we should be flexed at transition. Except if we use ILE and voult over like the WC skiers in their freeskiing video that we have seen a million times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Can anyone suggest a move that you can use to start to get forward after you've completely released and are in a literal free-fall with very little ski pressure?
Well, it cannot be pulling your feet back because that is impossible without extending our legs forcing our CoM to rice abruptly during transition.
post #40 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
BTW, the WC skier in the video you posted does not turn perpendicular to the fall line. Not even close. It looks that way when he is filmed from ahead but if you look at the trax you will see that he is moving at maybe max 45deg to the fall line. And even if he turns more perpendicular he can gain speed from a turn, its not always loss of speed.
And keep in mind this a very (and I mean VERY) flat slope!
Indoor skifridge in Holland. So speed control is no isue here at all.
post #41 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
This goal will limit your range of movement. It's all fine to do that if you're content to ski slow "ambassador turns", but OLR demands a true release -- or it's not OLR.

"Release" is what happens at turn completion -- the CM is released from it's arc, and it is FREE to move/float over the skis at transition. Without this release, the skier fights against the momentum of body. With this release, momentum works with the skier.

It is less important to stay centered here than it is to be centered by turn initiation. So once being cleanly released, the next goal is to recenter.

Can anyone suggest a move that you can use to start to get forward after you've completely released and are in a literal free-fall with very little ski pressure?
Couple questions so I can follow along here. What are "ambassador turns ?" I searched, can't find yet.

BigE - in the bolded - confirming you are saying there that being recentered is part of the "float" at neutral ? before edge change or other action ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
You are suggesting that we do not fight the momentum of our body at transition! This remark sounds odd since if we let our body float without interuption or fighting forces we would be going DH straight in the fall line. That is an option for some but not if we want to finnish our turns perpendicular to the fall line. That would involve some fighting of the momentum of our body getting pulled down in the fall line as we start deviating from the fall line or? We should still relece but a bit later on in the turn. Let our skis point across or nearly across since as soon as we relese we start going straight especially if we are up to speed.


Normally with OLR we should not strive to be fully extended at the top of the turn. We should extend into the turn. That means that we should be flexed at transition. Except if we use ILE and voult over like the WC skiers in their freeskiing video that we have seen a million times.
TDK - something seems sequentially off here in what you describe or how you interpret BigE's description. I would think as a turn is given a finish , and transition occurs, new turn starting , this would be where we wouldn't have a lot of forces we'd want to fight ? More like go with or take advantage of ? To me, at turn finish, the forces are shifting and there are choices to make at that point.
post #42 of 115
Thread Starter 
Just want to put up a piece of evidence(photo taken directly downhill facing uphill). If I ski as fast as I could its like 45 degree as spotted by Rick. I did try to get more angle but the best I can do is like 60. Beyond that it get really slow.

post #43 of 115
Carver - maybe work on carving a full circle ? Could be fun.
post #44 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Carver - maybe work on carving a full circle ? Could be fun.
I heard people can do that. Probably next time I ski in real mountain I ll give it a try.
post #45 of 115
Warning - not sure the responsibility code covers this. As you head back up hill I think you become an "uphill" skier with uphill skiers heading at you with wide eyes. Be VERY careful.
post #46 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Warning - not sure the responsibility code covers this. As you head back up hill I think you become an "uphill" skier with uphill skiers heading at you with wide eyes. Be VERY careful.
Sure, double shoulder check.
post #47 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
TDK - something seems sequentially off here in what you describe or how you interpret BigE's description. I would think as a turn is given a finish , and transition occurs, new turn starting , this would be where we wouldn't have a lot of forces we'd want to fight ? More like go with or take advantage of ? To me, at turn finish, the forces are shifting and there are choices to make at that point.
Yeah, that quote of mine sure sounds confusing.... Anyway, what Im saying is that if you relese the turn too early you will not be able to finish the turn perpendicular to the fall line especially if you are in the back seat.

Ambasador turns, LOL, you gotta use your imagination! Dont recall hearing that before but read it again: "It's all fine to do that if you're content to ski slow "ambassador turns", but OLR demands a true release -- or it's not OLR." It says in black and white that you ski slow and do not properly relese your old outside ski. Use a little imagination and you will come up with something not only just a bit non athletic and booringly crappy.
post #48 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Warning - not sure the responsibility code covers this. As you head back up hill I think you become an "uphill" skier with uphill skiers heading at you with wide eyes. Be VERY careful.
What about the "downhill" skiers
post #49 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
The big difference between a WC ski and a normal ski, both with same turn radius is that the WC ski due to being stiffer doesent turn as tight if skied at the same speed. Also, could you explain more in detail your technique including cross under insted of flexing and extending.

I wish i had a pic or a vid of my skiing but i don't.
I started carving using flexion and extension on flatter slopes (although the up and down movements were toned down somewhat compared to classic skidded turns). That worked and still does on flatter slopes. When i tried carving steeper terrain i knew that i had to change something. Why? Because flexing and extending cost me too much time and i was gaining speed in every turn i was making. I remembered that someone mentioned cross under. At first i thought that was a stupid idea. Well, it wasn't. So i started making turns using cross under instead of cross over. It worked but it wasn't the complete answer. I also had to create higher angles. I saw some pics of racers and tried to copy their position. I will try to find some pics if you want.

I used a wider stance, which allowed me to create high edge angles and flex the inside leg at maximum. Before i complete the turn, if i want, i can transfer most of my weight from the outside ski to the inside one. That way i would be riding the inside ski (great sensation). Being so low to the ground with the inside leg flexed at maximum and the outside leg longer (but not straight), i can easily use cross under to pivot my skis into the new turn and transfer my weight to the new outside ski (if there is any extension, it's minimal). I also try to move back a little when i do that so that i am centered over my skis. The rebound of the WC ski also helps me do that. I have to say that i am pushing almost as much as i can on the outside ski.

I agree that WC skis are stiffer but there are two more factors to consider. First, the sandwich construction which is said to be the fastest gliding construction known to humans. Second, the faster gliding base of WC skis.
post #50 of 115
sywsyw, Racing Department FIS sanwich skis - I would not have it any other way . They have a very fast base, incredible edge hold, snappy rebound and they can be skied as fast as you dare.

Could you please explain in more detail how you see the difference between cross under and cross over.

When you say your skis pivot into the next turn you probably do not mean that you pivot them into a skidd do you?
post #51 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
Couple questions so I can follow along here. What are "ambassador turns ?" I searched, can't find yet.

BigE - in the bolded - confirming you are saying there that being recentered is part of the "float" at neutral ? before edge change or other action ?
The "ambassador turn" is the one that the old friendly smiling resort welcoming guy/gal makes all the time. Lots of skidding, always centered, next to no flexion/extension.

You may not be fully recentered starting the float but you may become recentered therein or shortly thereafter.

The question is how do you acheive this if release is completely clean, and you're basically in free-fall?

(Not rhetorical).
post #52 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
The "ambassador turn" is the one that the old friendly smiling resort welcoming guy/gal makes all the time. Lots of skidding, always centered, next to no flexion/extension.
That's pretty good, "not that there's anything wrong with that". I never heard that one before either.
Thanks,

JF
post #53 of 115
I'm thinking you can't just be in free-fall. There has to be some directional momentum carried over from the finished turn,and energy, but it is all changing since the turn is finished. Sooo, you have muscular tension to use as you get to center to stay there. And you have extension available. Which,, if getting forward is an issue , can't extension be used ?
post #54 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
You may not be fully recentered starting the float but you may become recentered therein or shortly thereafter.

The question is how do you acheive this if release is completely clean, and you're basically in free-fall?

(Not rhetorical).
You need to be well into the turn by the time you end your float.
post #55 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
I'm thinking you can't just be in free-fall. There has to be some directional momentum carried over from the finished turn,and energy, but it is all changing since the turn is finished. Sooo, you have muscular tension to use as you get to center to stay there. And you have extension available. Which,, if getting forward is an issue , can't extension be used ?
The only way you can extend is if you "extend into the turn".
post #56 of 115
Tdk would you explain that please, or elaborate ? Seems if you are well into the turn (new turn I presume) then you can't start your turn early cause you're well into it already & missed your chance. Sounds like you are already turning ?
post #57 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Thanks Ghost.
I seen you over the other forum. I suppose you know OLR better than I do. I ll give its long form for the other readers.
OLR=Outside Leg Retract.

So is there something hidden in your question?

later,

carver_hk
Just as a point of information, carver, there are a great many people who read these posts but never participate. Many of them have no idea what some of these acronyms mean.

Is it really so hard to type it out rather than doing the shorthand?

We're not doing texting here, r we?
post #58 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Dive???
Maybe, but wouldn't diving continue to keep pressure low at the top of the arc? Doesn't it need a push off at the start of the dive? I'd think that diving would make for another problem that we'd have to fix. Maybe diving is not the right word for it...

The notion is that the Outside leg is relaxed so fully that the CM is released from the arc. I'd like to say topples, but that seems to imply that the ->balance point<- shifted completly to the uphill ski when this toppling begins. It's not.

How about if I asked, what move would you make to get your feet back under you after a clean release, and your body is floating downhill?
post #59 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911over View Post
I'm thinking you can't just be in free-fall. There has to be some directional momentum carried over from the finished turn,and energy, but it is all changing since the turn is finished. Sooo, you have muscular tension to use as you get to center to stay there. And you have extension available. Which,, if getting forward is an issue , can't extension be used ?
How does extension get my center of mass back over my feet?
post #60 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Rick, brake the bad habbit by doing the opposite?

Yep,,, and to the opposite, beyond the ultimate goal. So, if someone is in the back seat, don't teach them to find center,,, have them ski fore, explore the opposite extreme of the fore aft plane, then find center between the two. It's expands the skills, it expands the awareness, it makes fine tuning an easier task.

- So applied to this situation, have him try doing 120 degree turns, where you turn uphill. Start on a gentle slope. Point straight down the falline, pick up a bit of speed, then initiate a carved turn to the right. Keep turning, going beyond 90, until eventually going uphill brings student to a stop.

- Repeat, but this time start a new turn to the left just before coming to a stop. The new turn should be a clean carve, right from initiation. Keep carving left until going uphill brings student to a stop.

- The challenge is in the timing. Delaying the start of the turn until just barely enough speed is left to take the student through the top of the new turn, and back into the falline. Also there is challenge in remaining balanced and clean on the edge through the slow speed at the beginning of these turns.

- Repeat in the opposite direction,,, then when quality is good in both directions, link a series of these 120 degree turns.

- From there, allowing the student to finish their turns at 90 degrees is a treat.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › How to get more fall line angle?