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Jackets and Pants - Page 4

Poll Results: Which Jacket is the best?

 
  • 6% (3)
    North Face Sedition III
  • 58% (25)
    Arc'teryx Sidewinder
  • 4% (2)
    Westcomb IMirage
  • 0% (0)
    Westcomb Vapor FX
  • 30% (13)
    Other (please specify)
43 Total Votes  
post #91 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishEH View Post
Amen to that. I bet there are a LOT of excellent and pro skiers that would laugh you off the lift for dropping $500+ on a jacket. I know I would.
Yes, but something tells me I'd get the last laugh! I don't think this is a "pro" vs amateur question, but more a matter of fit, comfort and warmth and while I'm sure there are some $100 jackets that do some or all of that, I know for dang sure that the likes of Kjus and Vist do all three and do it in style

The crowd I hang with are actually terrific skiers and they would prefer to have one high tech piece of gear that they can rely on than having 2-3 jackets that may or may not get them through the day.

One man's ceiling is another man's floor and again, if you've never tried a Kjus or Vist, you have no clue.
post #92 of 119

Klim..the only way to go

The best outter wear by far is Klim. Designed for mountain sledding where you are in the deep powder all day but more importantly, when your sledding 25 miles away from anything, you cannot go inside a hut to warm up or dry off. This stuff is for 8hrs straight outside. I was in Revelstoke sledding last May. it started to rain at about 11 but we still rode. Got back to the truck at 7 pm. still raining and I was totally dry.

Klim..thats all you need baby!!!!
post #93 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
I cant help but wonder if you laugh at every Ferrari or Lamborghini driver you see on the streets.
yes. well, except for maybe magnum p.i.
post #94 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
I cant help but wonder if you laugh at every Ferrari or Lamborghini driver you see on the streets.
No but I would laugh at someone wearing $800 driving gloves behind the wheel of a Subaru. The comparison you draw is like apples to oranges. The Ferrari would be to skis like driving gloves would be to a ski jacket.

The OP has said he is on a budget. His overall lack of knowledge about ski jackets and the materials that comprise them leads me to believe that his ski level does not warrant a $800 jacket. I could be wrong but don't think I am.

Obviously if you have the scratch for a $800 jacket and you feel is is twice as good as a $400 jacket then more power to you. This is America where people are free to do as they choose. If some people want to buy a Hummer to get groceries then who am I to stop them?
post #95 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishEH View Post
No but I would laugh at someone wearing $800 driving gloves behind the wheel of a Subaru. The comparison you draw is like apples to oranges. The Ferrari would be to skis like driving gloves would be to a ski jacket.

The OP has said he is on a budget. His overall lack of knowledge about ski jackets and the materials that comprise them leads me to believe that his ski level does not warrant a $800 jacket. I could be wrong but don't think I am.

Obviously if you have the scratch for a $800 jacket and you feel is is twice as good as a $400 jacket then more power to you. This is America where people are free to do as they choose. If some people want to buy a Hummer to get groceries then who am I to stop them?
I agree 100% and who are you to mock them then? Laughing at them is mocking them, since they are not trying to amuse you they are buying what they want and feel they need. Don't make me get Joe Pesci on you!!!
post #96 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by olylady View Post
Below are the lastest, greatest waterproof, breathable fabrics from various manufactures:

1. eVent
2. GORTEX-XCR
3. Entrant Dermizax-EV
4. Helly Tech XP
5. Sympatex
I am in a situation where finding ski pants with one of the above (or Patagonia's H2No which has worked well for me) may not be possible. I have short legs and much prefer a suspendered pant - put the two together and the pickings are slim

Any thoughts on some of the other "technologies" (which may be treatments/coatings rather than layered membranes, though the truth sometimes seems to be hidden in the marketing mystique):
  1. North Face's HyVent
  2. Entrant GII (which is described as a coating)
  3. Columbia's Omni-Tech (or is it Omni-Dreck?)
  4. Did I miss any (perhaps Scotchguard)?
FYI I will only be using the pants for skiing in the Rocky Mts, so the final word in waterproofness is not necessary (just looking to keep my butt comfy on those deep powder days).
post #97 of 119
BTW - I'm looking at a pair of Spyder pants which lists the material as Entrant XT on the website, while the actual garment tags state GII with the same 5,000mm specs as the XT. Don't know if these are one and the same....
post #98 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
I am in a situation where finding ski pants with one of the above (or Patagonia's H2No which has worked well for me) may not be possible. I have short legs and much prefer a suspendered pant - put the two together and the pickings are slim

Any thoughts on some of the other "technologies" (which may be treatments/coatings rather than layered membranes, though the truth sometimes seems to be hidden in the marketing mystique):
  1. North Face's HyVent
  2. Entrant GII (which is described as a coating)
  3. Columbia's Omni-Tech (or is it Omni-Dreck?)
  4. Did I miss any (perhaps Scotchguard)?
FYI I will only be using the pants for skiing in the Rocky Mts, so the final word in waterproofness is not necessary (just looking to keep my butt comfy on those deep powder days).
Find a pair of pants that fit you, then worry about the technology. Most companies, (with the exception of Helly-Hansen and Patagonia which have their own fabric technologies), use a combination of different membranes and (durable water repellency) DWRs, depending on the line. Usually, the more expensive pants will be completely seam-sealed and are made with the latest fabrics. In the Rocky Mountains you will not need to worry about this as much as we do in the far west.

Also, many technical pants are bib style with suspenders. See: http://www.backcountry.com/store/group/223/Mens-Ski-Pants.html Arc'teryx pants are available in SHORT. The Marmot Randonnee pant is available in SHORT as well, and they're on sale. http://www.backcountry.com/store/MAR0903/Marmot-Randonnee-Pant-Mens.html Hope this helps, good luck.
post #99 of 119
I own an Arc'teryx Stinger - awesome jacket
I also own various other Arc'teryx jackets and pants, no complaints with any of them.
Good brand
post #100 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
BTW - I'm looking at a pair of Spyder pants which lists the material as Entrant XT on the website, while the actual garment tags state GII with the same 5,000mm specs as the XT. Don't know if these are one and the same....
I have yet to find Spyder pant that I like....they pale in comparison to many of the other brands.
post #101 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by olylady View Post
Usually, the more expensive pants will be completely seam-sealed and are made with the latest fabrics. In the Rocky Mountains you will not need to worry about this as much as we do in the far west.

Also, many technical pants are bib style with suspenders. See: http://www.backcountry.com/store/group/223/Mens-Ski-Pants.html Arc'teryx pants are available in SHORT. The Marmot Randonnee pant is available in SHORT as well, and they're on sale. http://www.backcountry.com/store/MAR0903/Marmot-Randonnee-Pant-Mens.html Hope this helps, good luck.
I am indeed looking at fit first - that's what led me to some of the lower end models (why they are more readily available in a small/short I don't know).

Thanks for the tips; unfortunately I'm not a fan of fairly high bibs--like the Arcteryx--either (too much material/warmth - picky, picky), the Marmot from Backcountry, while not too high is no longer available in a small/short, and for 2008 Marmot no longer makes it in short (another high end company abandoning us little people).

Otherwise, yeah in the Rocky Mts and for my use I don't much worry about high end seam sealing and uber-waterproof zippers. However, the material needs to be relatively waterproof otherwise I end up with a wet butt (as starters). Are you saying the low end waterproofing technologies (esp. HyVent and Entrant GII since I think I can find North Face and Spyder pants using these that will fit) will probably also keep my butt dry?

Thanks
post #102 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie-Rich View Post
I have yet to find Spyder pant that I like....they pale in comparison to many of the other brands.
What about them don't you like? The Tarantula model I saw looks well made though without waterproof side zips (I will try to live with that though that could be a mistake too). My real concerns are:
  1. The Entrant GII waterproof coating that sounds like something that will be ineffective in no time.
  2. They are insulated - I am concerned that I will overheat even if I'm naked underneath (I've only ever used shell pants, though over heavy weight fleece pants so who knows).
post #103 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
Otherwise, yeah in the Rocky Mts and for my use I don't much worry about high end seam sealing and uber-waterproof zippers. However, the material needs to be relatively waterproof otherwise I end up with a wet butt (as starters). Are you saying the low end waterproofing technologies (esp. HyVent and Entrant GII since I think I can find North Face and Spyder pants using these that will fit) will probably also keep my butt dry?

Thanks
DWR coatings on the outside of fabrics will eventually wear-off. Laminate membranes, such as GORE-TEX and ENTRANT DERMIZAX-EV on the inside will not. Go to: http://www.grangersusa.com/Outerwear_Care.html http://www.torayentrant.com/what_ent/what_ent.html http://www.gore-tex.com/

Due to the high-cost of membrane technologies, price-point entry level clothing is usually coated with DWR.

It is important to buy pants that are seam-sealed in "critical areas". More than likely, high-end clothing is "completely seam-sealed". Waterproof zippers are very important as well.

You get what you pay for. But as you said, fit and comfort are most important of all.
post #104 of 119
A more complete list of the lower-end waterproofing technologies seems to be:
  1. North Face's HyVent
  2. Entrant GII (which is described as a coating)
  3. Entrant XT (which may just be Spyder's name for the above)
  4. Columbia's Omni-Tech (or is it Omni-Dreck?)
  5. Mountain Hardwear's Conduit (which they claim to be a membrane)
Any thoughts on the effectiveness of these (both short and longer term) vs. the Goretex's, eVents, etc. of the world?
post #105 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Agreed.

I own TNF Freethinker jacket and it's as good as it gets. It's a total hard-shell, not stretchy, but more impervious to severe weather. Big bucks, but you get what you pay for.

I also now only wear merino wool (Icebreaker) underneath. It's light, super-warm, and doesn't stink. Seriously, you can wear the same top for a week.

I'm done with $60 poly tops. They're overpriced, sweaty and smelly.

On ultra-cold days, I wear thin silk tops under the wool, and a down sweater (Patagonia) as a mid-layer. Never a problem with moisture, scent or temp.
I second the freethinker as one of the best jackets out there.
post #106 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
What about them don't you like? The Tarantula model I saw looks well made though without waterproof side zips (I will try to live with that though that could be a mistake too). My real concerns are:
  1. The Entrant GII waterproof coating that sounds like something that will be ineffective in no time.
  2. They are insulated - I am concerned that I will overheat even if I'm naked underneath (I've only ever used shell pants, though over heavy weight fleece pants so who knows).
Im picky with my stuff, I like lots of features, when given the opportunity to buy the well equipped or the loaded I always go for the loaded, that being said Spyder pants that I have seen, dont have enough pockets, they dont have enough or any vents, the materials dont seem particularly tough, and they seem featureless...that is, non-descript which is in stark contrast to their "loud" jackets. The pants I own are by Burton-Tactics and Bodyglove. Many pockets, taped seams, ventilation openings, and integration with the jacket (connections to the powder skirt).
post #107 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
A more complete list of the lower-end waterproofing technologies seems to be:
  1. North Face's HyVent
  2. Entrant GII (which is described as a coating)
  3. Entrant XT (which may just be Spyder's name for the above)
  4. Columbia's Omni-Tech (or is it Omni-Dreck?)
  5. Mountain Hardwear's Conduit (which they claim to be a membrane)
Any thoughts on the effectiveness of these (both short and longer term) vs. the Goretex's, eVents, etc. of the world?
Entrant-XT is more technical then Entrant-GII, but it's still a fabric coating. Go to Entrant's website to learn about the differences. Don't worry about the "brand" name. Remember, coatings are coatings and they will eventually wear-off. Membranes are membranes and they will last longer. A combination of both is your best bet, but it will cost you. As I mentioned, seam-sealing and waterproof zippers are as important as fabric.
post #108 of 119
The most waterproof jacket I've owned is a Helly/Hansen WorkWear Voss jacket. It costs about $35.
post #109 of 119
I got a rubber lined poncho from Value Village for 5 bucks that was impervious to water. Didn't breathe unless you took it off and turned it inside out though. I miss that coat.

Shop well people. Lots of money holes with little to show after purchase for some of these fleeced lines of skiers.
post #110 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by olylady View Post
Remember, coatings are coatings and they will eventually wear-off. Membranes are membranes and they will last longer.
That's what I was thinking so I'd rather stick with a coating (and pay for it) so....

Anyone know if TNF's HyVent is a coating or a membrane (the TNF website cloaks the technology in mystique) and how well it works/lasts (a TNF HyVent pant appears to be my only other readily available choice for a short, suspendered pant)?
post #111 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
That's what I was thinking so I'd rather stick with a coating (and pay for it) so....

Anyone know if TNF's HyVent is a coating or a membrane (the TNF website cloaks the technology in mystique) and how well it works/lasts (a TNF HyVent pant appears to be my only other readily available choice for a short, suspendered pant)?
I meant "...I'd rather stick with a membrane...." Duh!
post #112 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
That's what I was thinking so I'd rather stick with a coating (and pay for it) so....

Anyone know if TNF's HyVent is a coating or a membrane (the TNF website cloaks the technology in mystique) and how well it works/lasts (a TNF HyVent pant appears to be my only other readily available choice for a short, suspendered pant)?
Because of the lower price, HyVent is probably a DWR coating...I couldn't find any info on it either. Northface doesn't have info on the fabric, other then it's extremely light weight. Fit is most important, so I'd give them a try.
post #113 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
I meant "...I'd rather stick with a membrane...." Duh!
We knew what you meant.
post #114 of 119
I always have the question why almost none of those top brands of ski wears using GTX. I mean those dedicated ski wears, as Spyder, Descente, Kjus, even Bogner, comparing almost all the mountain brands have fevers in GTX. For those $1,000 clothes cost should not be an issue. I know there're more fashion/marketing factors in ski wears, but if GTX can make a jacket more welcome and can be sold for $1,200 they will do that. (come on, people who buy $1k jacket don't mind another $200.) So I guess for ski wear there should be some advantages in membranes like Dermizax that GTX doesn't have. Just curious.
post #115 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
I always have the question why almost none of those top brands of ski wears using GTX. I mean those dedicated ski wears, as Spyder, Descente, Kjus, even Bogner, comparing almost all the mountain brands have fevers in GTX. For those $1,000 clothes cost should not be an issue. I know there're more fashion/marketing factors in ski wears, but if GTX can make a jacket more welcome and can be sold for $1,200 they will do that. (come on, people who buy $1k jacket don't mind another $200.) So I guess for ski wear there should be some advantages in membranes like Dermizax that GTX doesn't have. Just curious.
Some people prefer fashion over function. I think "Bogner" buyers look for well made high-fashion skiwear that makes them feel good. I would bet that most of them wouldn't even ski on wet cold days. High-tech waterproof laminated fabrics, with membranes such as GOR-TEX is NOT something that they are looking for. It's nice that the ski industry makes clothing for all sorts of skiers and riders...it would be a pretty boring place if we were all the same!
post #116 of 119
I am speculating here, but...GTX fabrics are stiffer, noisier, and drape worse than some of the other fabrics that these companies use, that may be one of the reasons. the companies go for comfort over performance, and they don't want their customers to feel that they ski in plastic bag. Also, doesn't GoreTEX insist on certain build standards, like 100% seam sealing, etc.? I know that Spyder and Phenix don;'t 100% seam-seal their garments, so they may not be able to use GoreTEX "Guaranted to keep you dry" marketing. Also, some of the coated waterproof fabrics ike Dermizax have some stretch built-in, which makes them more attractive to the "resort fashion skiwear" manufacturers. From experience, my old insulated Phenix ski jacket is much more comfortable than any of the GTX shells. I have not tried the GTX SoftShell garments, which may close that comfort gap.

Alex



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansnow View Post
I always have the question why almost none of those top brands of ski wears using GTX. I mean those dedicated ski wears, as Spyder, Descente, Kjus, even Bogner, comparing almost all the mountain brands have fevers in GTX. For those $1,000 clothes cost should not be an issue. I know there're more fashion/marketing factors in ski wears, but if GTX can make a jacket more welcome and can be sold for $1,200 they will do that. (come on, people who buy $1k jacket don't mind another $200.) So I guess for ski wear there should be some advantages in membranes like Dermizax that GTX doesn't have. Just curious.
post #117 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by olylady View Post
Because of the lower price, HyVent is probably a DWR coating...I couldn't find any info on it either. Fit is most important, so I'd give them a try.
Try as I may (multiple late nights trying many different web searches) I still can't find a Goretex, Dermizax, etc. suspendered pant in a small/short (except the too-high-bibbed for me Arcteryx). My conclusion is that a pant with a lesser waterproof technology are the only apparent choices for us forgotten short people - a $150 TNF Varius Guide with HyVent or a $200 Spyder Tarantula with Entrant GII.

I'm taking your advice to focus on fit, seam sealing and waterproof zips....

The TNF seems like a better choice than the Spyder - mainly the fact that the Spyder has exposed side zips that are not waterproof, while the TNF has a velcroed flap over the side zips. Can't really judge the seam-sealing since they are both lined. Fit seems fairly similar though I won't really know until I get the short model from the TNF website (local stores only carry the regular). The real tie-breakers are the several posts I've found indicating that HyVent actually works well (while I am skeptical of Entrant GII), and that the Spyders are insulated (which gives me hot flashes just thinking about the consequences).

It amazes me what TNF can pack into a $150 pant - suspenders, full side zips with velcro flaps, drop seat, articulated knees, lined, etc. The Patagonia's I am replacing is similar in design to the TNF (though it is probably more bullet-proof), has a few less features, uses H2No vs. a high $ membrane, and cost $260 10 years ago (that would be how much in today's dollars!). I guess that's the power of Chinese manufacturing!

Thanks for your help and advice - I'll report back on the fit, waterproofness, etc. as the season progresses!
post #118 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
Try as I may (multiple late nights trying many different web searches) I still can't find a Goretex, Dermizax, etc. suspendered pant in a small/short (except the too-high-bibbed for me Arcteryx). My conclusion is that a pant with a lesser waterproof technology are the only apparent choices for us forgotten short people - a $150 TNF Varius Guide with HyVent or a $200 Spyder Tarantula with Entrant GII.

I'm taking your advice to focus on fit, seam sealing and waterproof zips....

The TNF seems like a better choice than the Spyder - mainly the fact that the Spyder has exposed side zips that are not waterproof, while the TNF has a velcroed flap over the side zips. Can't really judge the seam-sealing since they are both lined. Fit seems fairly similar though I won't really know until I get the short model from the TNF website (local stores only carry the regular). The real tie-breakers are the several posts I've found indicating that HyVent actually works well (while I am skeptical of Entrant GII), and that the Spyders are insulated (which gives me hot flashes just thinking about the consequences).

It amazes me what TNF can pack into a $150 pant - suspenders, full side zips with velcro flaps, drop seat, articulated knees, lined, etc. The Patagonia's I am replacing is similar in design to the TNF (though it is probably more bullet-proof), has a few less features, uses H2No vs. a high $ membrane, and cost $260 10 years ago (that would be how much in today's dollars!). I guess that's the power of Chinese manufacturing!

Thanks for your help and advice - I'll report back on the fit, waterproofness, etc. as the season progresses!
I think TNF Varius Guide should work well for you and they're probably a lot better quality than everyone assumes. You're right... the power of Chinese manufacturing sometimes is a good thing! At $150. you could buy three pair. By the way, our uniform pants are Northface, and I really like the way they fit. On wet days, I just cover them up with a pair of black Sierra Rain Pants!

Way to go...yes, report back to us.
post #119 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski-ra View Post
A more complete list of the lower-end waterproofing technologies seems to be:
  1. North Face's HyVent
  2. Entrant GII & XT (which are described as coatings)
  3. Columbia's Omni-Tech (or is it Omni-Dreck?)
  4. Mountain Hardwear's Conduit (which they claim to be a membrane)
Further news on the above:
  1. The tag on my new TNF Varius Guide pants indicates that Hyvent is a coating (which hopefully doesn't mean I'll be looking for new pants in a year or two even though they fit mahvelously).
  2. The tags on Columbia gear indicates that Omni-Tech is a membrane.
Any reason to think that Omni-Tech doesn't deserve spoken in the same breath as eVent, Goretex, Dermizax...?
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