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Movement Analysis Request - Page 2

post #31 of 57
I'll pose a question for Andrew:

Dan Egan wanted to see you be more "dynamic" in your skiing. Based upon what you've learned so far, what does this mean to you and how did you try to incorporate this into your skiing if at all?

I have some thoughts on this that I'll share after I hear your response.

Mike
post #32 of 57
Thread Starter 
First of all, I would like to thank each and every person that has posted to give me positive feedback. It is very appreciated each of you took time to watch the videos, analyze the movements, then write your thoughts. After reading every post, I have a few thoughts and comments.

All of my instructors are very good and have helped me substantially. When I have access to them, there is no better way for me to learn and I feel that I have made incredible personal progress working with each of them. The problem for me is I have more of a desire to learn and progress than I have had access to coaches on the mountain, especially this summer/fall. I have had no coaching type contact with any of the coaches from my mountain since the end of April. I have had help from Rick and Tyler over the summer, working with them 3 days each (total of 6) and Dan for a few runs one day, all out of the 23 days I have skied since my mountain closed in late April. When I can work with one of my coaches, I am ecstatic, and those sessions propel me into learning significant new things, which has dramatically improved my skiing and by far been the biggest help. When I am not with my coaches, I work on the drills and skills I have learned. I have more of a thirst for knowledge and progression than I have access to coaches, so I have used different resources other than coaching on the mountain to make me a better skier and eventually an instructor. I even discussed posting here with one of my coaches before I did it and got the green light. I believe (hope) he will be reading this thread also. If I could work with them every day, I would. I feel blessed and extremely fortunate to have the coaches I do and wouldn’t change any of them for anything.

QmQ posted a concern about me being an instructor. I had the same trepidation when I first was asked. I have since learned as Paul Jones posted, there is a place for all levels and categories of instructors. Some of the other things I have been doing to learn and progress have been off the mountain, including reading books, watching videos, reading these forums, and attending PSIA seminars to name a few. For example, I am attending all three PSIA seminars in the NW region, which are geographically really spread out…but that’s how much I want to learn! I will also receive training for becoming a ski instructor for several months before I actually do it. I have shadowed instructors from my mountain last year (and will again this year), watching, taking notes, and learning. I have worked with my fiancée and her mother, teaching them how to ski this summer with the small bag of tricks I have from what I have learned so far. They both are doing really well and each has commented how much their own skiing has improved with the things I showed them. I also absolutely LOVE helping people get better and am so appreciative of the people that have helped me. Now I understand there is a place for me and I truly believe with my personality type, my desire for knowledge, passion for the sport, and ability to effectively communicate positive feedback, I will be a good instructor. I have a LOT to learn, but that is part of the fun for me. I have always strived to be the best I could be in anything I have done, this is no exception.

As I stated above, many have provided meaningful and useful feedback throughout this thread. I do not believe I will use everything and I certainly don’t understand everything that has been said, but as my instructor pointed out, I will get pearls of wisdom that will be meaningful to me, which I can take and apply to my own skiing. There are certainly many meaningful posts here, but so I can describe more accurately what I was looking for in regard to feedback, I will use one example, the first example of many in this thread. Rick Schnellmann’s post was spot on the money in what I’m looking for. He let me know what he thinks of my current progression, then gave me several things I could work on to improve that I could mostly understand (I don’t know what a gorilla drill and schlopy drill are though and couldn’t find a good description…yet). It is ironic before posting, I have watched videos Rick has made and read a lot of what he has written online. In fact, his written descriptions helped me to understand fore/aft and lateral balance more than anything else! Thanks Rick!! Again, that is just one of many good examples in this thread of what I am looking for in regard to positive feedback, for those who have asked.

I am also hoping to get a cold hard reality check on how I am doing based on my time skiing, also and in comparison to others with the same time on the snow. What common mistakes am I making? What things am I doing well? Where are my strengths? Where are my weaknesses? What are the biggest things I should work on to take it to the next level? What are the biggest things I can do to most dramatically improve my skiing from my current level of progression?

I felt I gave enough information that people providing feedback would not need to ask me questions, but questions are very welcome too and I am glad to respond! In reply to mmckimson, I am taking an excerpt out of my written ski journal from the day I met Dan, which I hope will answer your question. I keep a written journal of each time I work with a coach. To summarize what Dan told me (from the Day 50 Video) from my journal on June 1st: 1) Get and keep my hips more forward, especially through the turns. When I am turning, my hips are getting behind the turn and I have to make big movements to get them back in the correct position. 2) Let my legs be better shock absorbers and not as stiff, that by allowing my legs to be more dynamic, it would help my skiing. 3) Keep my skis tips within 6” ahead of each other maximum on turns/at all times because when the skis get too far ahead, it gets my hips out of proper position. 4) Move more, try the “jump” turn and the “airplane” turn for a variant, which will get me to move more while turning. This is the “up” movement described in the video. This is also my interpretation of what he told me, not necessarily exactly what he was trying to get across.

I hope that clears a few things up for everyone and again, thank you so much for taking the time to watch, analyze, and provide your feedback. All comments are welcome and I would love them to keep the feedback coming as long as someone wants to provide their opinion. If you have any more questions, please let me know. I will be out of town with little to no Internet access this weekend attending PSIA-NW seminars in Gresham, OR on Saturday and Seattle, WA on Sunday.

Thank you!
post #33 of 57
One Gorilla drill is basically an exagerated vertical movement action--all joints more flexed than normal, all joints straightened, back to more flexed than normal. Vary the pace of the extensions and flexions. It's intended to promote movement and balance.

Schlopy drill (also known as the Austrian Tea Pot): Ski without poles, raise the inside arm forward, push with the outside hand on the outside hip. Goal is to create angles so the center of mass is moving into the turn while the torso remains more upright with the inside half ahead.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aareses View Post
I felt I gave enough information that people providing feedback would not need to ask me questions, but questions are very welcome too and I am glad to respond! In reply to mmckimson, I am taking an excerpt out of my written ski journal from the day I met Dan, which I hope will answer your question. I keep a written journal of each time I work with a coach. To summarize what Dan told me (from the Day 50 Video) from my journal on June 1st: 1) Get and keep my hips more forward, especially through the turns. When I am turning, my hips are getting behind the turn and I have to make big movements to get them back in the correct position. 2) Let my legs be better shock absorbers and not as stiff, that by allowing my legs to be more dynamic, it would help my skiing. 3) Keep my skis tips within 6” ahead of each other maximum on turns/at all times because when the skis get too far ahead, it gets my hips out of proper position. 4) Move more, try the “jump” turn and the “airplane” turn for a variant, which will get me to move more while turning. This is the “up” movement described in the video. This is also my interpretation of what he told me, not necessarily exactly what he was trying to get across.
Try the reverse aiplane -- outside arm low, inside arm held high. You should see some hip angulation.

Oh, and exagerrate everything. Stretch the ROM to unthinkable levels. When you flex between turns, grab your ankles with your hands. when you tip your feet to new edges, really tip your feet. Your hips should follow into the turn.
post #35 of 57
Andrew,

As BigE suggests, teaching oneself to be more "dynamic" requires us to exaggerate the movements so we teach our body what it means. As he said, stretch your ROM to "unthinkable" levels. When you want to want to flex, flex more than you think you should or can. When you want to extend your COM in the direction of the new turn, extend to the point where you think you will fall down. You get the idea...

I would also encourage you to think of the legs as not only being dynamic, but independently so. One thing you might consider working on is the concept of "shortening" (flexing) the inside leg" while "lengthening" (extending) the outside leg as you make your turns. A mental picture of this would what you do somewhat instinctively with your pedals on a mountain bike when making a sharp turn (inside pedal high, outside pedal low).


Mike
post #36 of 57
Yes Mike, that is precisely the idea.
post #37 of 57
I have a question. . . What full time job do you have that allows you to have skied 60 days since Jan. 1st, paid enough to afford all of these private lessons with phenomenal coaches, and given you the opportunity to meet ski heroes that some of us only dream of meeting? And where can I sign up for this job?

Also, don't listen to those people who say you aren't ready to be an instructor. Your skiing skills are more than adequate to teach levels 1-3, you have an advantage because the things that you were taught are fresh in your mind, and the best way to become a phenomenal skier is to become an instructor and constantly ski with people that are better than you are and know how to articulate why.
post #38 of 57
Andrew,
Why do you rush so quickly through the transitions? Have you tried being more patient and progressive with your movements?
It sounds counter intuitive to suggest being more dynamic includes being more progressive and patient but it allows us to acheive a wider range of movements without adding staccatto movements that can disturb our balance so profoundly.
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Andrew,
Why do you rush so quickly through the transitions? Have you tried being more patient and progressive with your movements?
It sounds counter intuitive to suggest being more dynamic includes being more progressive and patient but it allows us to acheive a wider range of movements without adding staccatto movements that can disturb our balance so profoundly.
i very much agree with this sentiment. the other video posted (by Rick) shows a very smooooooth extension and flexion, with the extension started soon after the skis are in the fallline, well before the transition, letting the skis and the center of mass pass cross each other

what i have described as an up motion in andrews skiing happens rather suddenly, and happens typically after / at neutral, ie it happens later and is completed more quickly.

delaying the extension is what leaves him in the backseat, requiring a 'big' move to get the mass inside the skis again.
post #40 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattchuck2 View Post
I have a question. . . What full time job do you have that allows you to have skied 60 days since Jan. 1st, paid enough to afford all of these private lessons with phenomenal coaches, and given you the opportunity to meet ski heroes that some of us only dream of meeting? And where can I sign up for this job?
Mattchuck, I am the I.T. Director of a healthcare facility. I can't be gone for long periods, so a good compromise is to get a day off every week during the winter. With the weekend it gives me 3 days to ski and makes the company I work for happier. To get a job like that, well it is a lot of college, computer science, math, business, certifications, and hard work. As for the coaches, I have just been blessed to meet the people I have, some that have taken me under their wing. During summer if you ski the only mountain open in the US, you are bound to meet some phenomenal skiers. Other than my SUPER coaches (not exaggerating there) I have mentioned and some technical team members, I also met Deb Armstrong, Nelson Wingard, Dave Lyons all from the PSIA National Alpine Team...Nelson is high energy and a way cool cat! My fiance'e's mom also has a cabin 15min from Timberline so that helped too! In many ways, the stars just aligned for me this year...it was destiny that I learn and fall in love with this sport!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Andrew,
Why do you rush so quickly through the transitions? Have you tried being more patient and progressive with your movements?
That is for you to help me answer! I am not yet experienced enough to answer that question. I am just skiing the best way I know how to at this point. Remember, I haven't been at this very long, certainly not long enough to analyze higher end movements I do not yet fully understand. That's what I'm asking for you to help me with! I have not tried it as I have been working on so many other skills/areas.

Hopefully you and others can help me understand what I should change and why.

I have some questions for you (and others) too:
1) How am I doing for 60 days on the snow?
2) Can you see big changes in my skiing from days 40, 50, 60?
3) What things am I doing well?
4) What major mistakes am I making?
5) What are the top 3 things I could do to most dramatically improve my skiing and take things to the next level?
post #41 of 57
Andrew, Great progress.
1. Sixty days is about half a season for most full timers. Which is unusual for a first year skier. So how many days do you plan to ski this year?
2. Yes and no. Same basic movements are present but they're just getting more refined and easy to lean on as default movement patterns. Especially how you settle into the turns. At first you keep a pretty stiff outside leg. By day 60 that leg starts to soften and flex more. Unfortunately, the flexing drops your hips back as you settle. Don't dispair though because that is normal for all of us.
3. A disciplined upper body and keeping the outside leg long and strong. Although too stiff a leg will cause your skis to bounce. Sort of like a wheel on the car without a shock and spring. The wheel doesn't stay on the ground when it goes over bumpy terrain.
4. a. Expanding on the idea of being supple and progressive. Think touch and feel verses being a bull all the time. Power before touch creates movements that do not match the situation. Sort of like using a sledge hammer swing to drive a finishing nail. Could be one of the reasons for the skis losing edge purchase as well.
b. The hips projecting into the turn would require a different extension move. Try opening the new outside knee instead of trying to extend the ankle and hip as much. As the new inside leg flexes, drive the knee and inside hip towards the apex of the new turn. Which should also feel like the inside ankle is flexing a bit more than usual. It should also produce a different overall feeling during the first half of the turn. It should feel a lot more like you're falling into the turn.
c. Again it is a very progressive, very connected movement pattern. Which is totally different from the cookie cutter / paint by numbers sequential position change type of moves I see. I suspect that with all of the ideas you posted that you are thinking about too much of this stuff as you ski. Do this, then that, then the next thing, type of thought processes. Shut it down and just ski for a while. Try also to stay in the moment and forget the past. Especially the last turn! Review your skiing later, stay in the moment and focus on the upcoming turn, or the turn after that. E called it simplifying...

E, pointed out that you are getting smoother which I would say is something we can all see. Two things tough, don't let smooth become static. Also make sure that when you do start to get more dynamic with your moves, you match them to the terrain better. Which is a function of experience and a lot of trial and error. I can't express this strongly enough Andrew, from this point forward a lot of improvements will happen as you make better tactical choices and match the size and strength of the moves to the terrain. (Not that you are making poor choices, just that they need to be refined and matched to the terrain more)Only you will know for sure when those moves feel exactly right, sort of like goldylocks finding the bed that was exactly right for her. Too hard, or too soft and it wasn't a good fit for her, even though all of the beds were a good fit for the three bears.

Lastly, after reviewing all of the posts I still say an MA needs to include specific questions about what is being seen. Too often the advice here is offered before some investigating has been done. Why you move how you do being the most important question we can ask. Here's an example of why...You provided a lot of information but when asked specifically about your transitions and why you do them the way you do, your response is I dunno. Knowing that answer is important if you are going to continue to improve. Matching our moves to the terrain means knowing which move to use, how quickly to do it, and how strongly to do it.
post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by aareses
I have some questions for you (and others) too:

1) How am I doing for 60 days on the snow?
2) Can you see big changes in my skiing from days 40, 50, 60?
3) What things am I doing well?
4) What major mistakes am I making?
5) What are the top 3 things I could do to most dramatically improve my skiing and take things to the next level?
1) With your athleticism: fair

2) Nothing very significant

3) You are decently centered over the skis.

4) You are static laterally.

5a) Ski with more movment
5b) Learn more movements
5c) Challenge your balance

The issues as I see them are that you are an intently motivated guy, and you are inexperienced. I get the sense that you'd prefer to spend a lot of time on the slopes with an instructor.

There is nothing wrong with doing this, if you can afford it. But eventually, you'll have to cut the chord, and figure this game out on your own -- independently. No one can ski for you.

So, what you need MOST of all is mileage. The right sort of mileage, and a coherent model of skiing in your head. Not just a pile of disconnected directives.

I was concerned when you posted all the things that you were attempting to acheive in your skiing at the end of the 60 day video. Honestly, I cannot imagine thinking that much -- I'd be completely paralysed.

I can manage to focus on only one thing per run. I cannot do any more than that.

So, to give you a way to afford direction and have it available at any hour, I will suggest that you look at a text written by Harald Harb, called "The Essentials of Skiing". It's inexpensive and outlines a very small number of essential movements as well as drill progressions to establish those movments in your skiing. Without question, following this text will improve your skiing, as it replaces the many directives you were juggling with a manageable set.

[Can you believe I am recommending this? ]

Given your apparently insatiable desire to learn, and what you do for a living, this text based approach sounds like it could be a very good fit. It could well become an invaluable aid to your quest towards good skiing. I believe that with your motivation, your improvements from days 40-60 would have been truly remarkable by restricting your focus to a small set of very effective, direct and clear movement patterns.

So in effect, what I am suggesting is a strict disciplined, and some might say limited, approach to learning to ski.

I rarely suggest this approach here, since Harald Harb and Epic mix as about as well as oil and water.

I represent neither PMTS nor Epic/PSIA or wish either of them harm. I have simply found that particular text to be an excellent tool for instruction. Time spent learning the suggested movements will not be time wasted. Call this part of 5b.

Good luck
post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Why do you rush so quickly through the transitions? Have you tried being more patient and progressive with your movements?
It sounds counter intuitive to suggest being more dynamic includes being more progressive and patient but it allows us to acheive a wider range of movements without adding staccatto movements that can disturb our balance so profoundly.
Andrew,

I agree that this is an important concept. A recent tip from Nick Herrin (PSIA Alpine Team) published in their magazine called 32 Degrees talks about using "Patient Movements for Quick, Accurate Turn Shape".

Basically, the thrust of the article is to practice slowing down the rate at which you turn you legs which allows you to better move directionally throught the turn.

As a mental drill, Nick suggests that you visualize trying to make your turns in a box. The goal is to etch a nice round arc within the box, being sure to touch the upper corner, touch the side (body is facing downhill) and then travel through the lower corner. In particular, he stresses "pausing" at the point when your skis are pointing straight downhill to slow down how quickly you are turning your skis across the hill.

This might be something to think about on snow.

Mike
post #44 of 57
I am hesistant to agree with this advice, as it opens the door to less movement.

Pausing means don't move -- it's the opposite of what Andrew needs to do. Yes, the movement should be progressive. The edging needs to start at the feet, and above that, the body gets into the turn in the order of ankles, knees and hips. We don't just leap or fall into the turn with the hips. That represents a disconnect from the snow and a loss of control.

Ensure that you are fully aligned to manage radically increasing pressure by the fall-line -- the hips must be in place by then -- countered etc. There is no reason not to prepare for these forces by countering early. You'll learn with mileage how to use countering to stop the tails from skidding out, and how to progressively make that movement as well. The notion here is HOW to get the body in to the turn. What is the sequence of events? Hips FOLLOW knees which FOLLOW ankles, which tip the skis. No "launching" the body into the turn (although that's fun too).
post #45 of 57
The box drill is usually used to introduce a round turn instead of Z-turns. Delaying in the fall line changes that constant radius quality somewhat but within the context of teaching patience in the control phase, it works well. I guess it should be pointed out here that the box drill isn't skiing, it's just a drill.
Another point I want to address is the kinetic chain theory E mentioned. Lets start with the interconnected paths taken by the feet and the body. At the end of the turn the body is over the skis but still moving towards the inside of the next turn. Interrupting this to wait for the feet, then the ankles, then the knees to "move into the turn" is how the body ends up late into the next turn. Yes we need to add tipping from the ground up but it should be understood that the legs are articulating to create tipping and facilitate edge engagement while also maintaining a connection between the skis and the body which are both moving simultaneously along their seperate paths. I can't tell you how many skiers take the kinetic chain idea too literally and they stop allowing the hips/torso to continue moving into the new turn.
post #46 of 57

bookmarked

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I will suggest that you look at a text written by Harald Harb, called "The Essentials of Skiing". Without question, following this text will improve your skiing

[Can you believe I am recommending this? ]
Ladies and Gentlemen; we have a breakthrough!

Seriously, I applaud your recommendation. Last winter, toward the end of the season, I obtained HH's book, read most of it, and returned to the hill for a self-coached session. My progression went from lower-intermediate to pretty darn good in about 6 hours time. The seventh hour was incredible!

This next winter I will get a chance to show this to my eldest son, and I am quite sure I can save him about four of those hours by my own previous experience.

Zippy
post #47 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Andrew,
Why do you rush so quickly through the transitions? Have you tried being more patient and progressive with your movements?
It sounds counter intuitive to suggest being more dynamic includes being more progressive and patient but it allows us to acheive a wider range of movements without adding staccatto movements that can disturb our balance so profoundly.
I didn't like not being able to give an answer to your question and frankly, I wasn't quite sure what you were talking about until I read and thought about it more. Now, I believe I can give you an answer. When I went to the PSIA Race Camp this summer, it was what I would term very "icy" conditions. Whenever I turned, I skidded down the hill (chattered) on the bottom of my turns. My coaches taught me that I can tip my skis early into the turn, then pressure with the toes to hold the arc without skidding much if at all. I worked on that as one of my new skills and WOW it worked big time for me. I could turn on what I termed "icy" slopes and hold a carve and it felt great. So, I have been working on tipping the skis really early into the turn after transition in those conditions. The day I shot my day 60 video, the race lanes were still somewhat "icy" and then slushy in between (they were still salted) in the late morning/early afternoon. I made a tactical choice to tip my skis really fast to start the carve early as I had learned. I believe if I had not, I would be skidding again in those conditions. I have watched GS skiers do the same thing. So, my questions are: did I use the correct tactics/techniques based on the conditions? If not, how does one retain the feeling/ability I achieved to get on the new edges well before the fall-line in those conditions in conjunction with being more patient as has been suggested here? Based on the conditions, has your advice/opinion changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
1) With your athleticism: fair
Please explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
2) Nothing very significant
As part of my training to become a new ski instructor, I have been trying to analyze movements. Of course, not in higher end skiing (yet) but I have tried to analyze my own movements as much as my current skill set allows. When watching my Day 50 video in comparison to my Day 60 video, I noticed several things in the Day 50 Video: 1) My arms are "flailing" a lot more and further from my body. 2) My upper body is not as quiet and stable. 3) My carves are not nearly as clean, dynamic, or well "shaped". 4) My tips are further apart. 5) I am not weighting the coming outside ski before turn initiation. 6) My hips are not "forward" and as a result I am creating forward pressure by the result of the bend at the hips instead of the hips helping my new inside half lead the turn and as a result as Dan said, I am getting behind. 7) I do not seem as balanced and I am certainly not as "properly" balanced. 8) I am not tipping my skis before the new turn. 9) I do not have as much "proper" lateral pressure on the outside ski. 10) My femurs are not rotating in the hip socket as much. 11) My legs are a lot stiffer. 12) There was not as much angulation. 13) My inside half/hands are not guiding the turn as well. 14) My pole plants suck. 15) I do not have as much counter-balance going in my upper and lower body.

The conditions on the Day 50 video were for lack of a better word...perfect. The Day 60 conditions were very bad and tough in comparison to Day 50 (but great to just be skiing in August). As indicated above on Day 60, the race lanes were "icy" (salted) with light slush between and nice big ruts all over (mostly that had been attempted to be covered...suprise!), so it was nothing like skiing on winter snow like in the Day 50 video.

My question to you is, am I properly analyzing my own video? Of course I have a distinct advantage since I was there and knew and felt what I did before and after. I truly believed there was a dramatic difference in my skiing in the 10 days between Day 50 and Day 60 videos, so I want to make sure I'm not crazy here.

I am getting a lot of good information out of this thread and am seeing areas I can definitely improve. After a little more time, I plan to post a final summary of the pearls I got and verify them with those kind enough to have offered advice.
post #48 of 57
There's a couple reasons for working the ski during the first half of the turn.
1. The engaged edges will not allow quite as much acceleration but in return gives you so much more directional control. Setting you up for the control phase which is when you need to be working the ski very strongly.
During the last third you are finding the skis are skidding because the skis are not holding. Some would say add more power then but edge hold, or in this case the lack of edge hold, is due to the excessive momentum that comes with the unregulated acceleration in the first half of the turn. So being more active earlier is slightly slower initially but during the second half of the turn the cleaner arc is faster since there is no skidding. Many will suggest more tipping will do the same but honestly too much edge is slower as well. Which should lead you to the idea that a more consistent speed throughout the turn is faster than speeding up in the first half and scrubbing speed in the second half. Especially when you consider the momentum you lose when you start scrubbing speed by skidding.
2. Add to that some ideas on body positions and movements relative to the skis and the snow. A more centered stance gives you the opportunity to choose from the widest variety of possible movements and tactical lines choices. For that to happen the body needs to move and flow down the mountain as freely as possible. Same can be said of the feet that are traveling a rounder line. Delay moves down there will really upset the flow of the feet. Which leads me back to an excercise that was mentioned earlier. Try moving your arms back behind your body as you stand up. Decouples the movement doesn't it? Now try moving them forward as if you are reaching out to grab something as you stand up. At nine percent of your body mass (each) moving them forward creates forward momentum with 18 percent of your body mass. No need to pull back the feet or any other part of your body. Which introduces the idea of moving forward to move forward. Even on a purely mathematical level moving your arms backwards moves the CoM backwards. Why would we do that if we are wanting to move it forward?

Like E I see refinement of the moves you use but the basic moves are still the same. Not a bad thing for a short term goal but as you will discover some of those will end up limiting the options I wrote about earlier. Especially settling downward and inward (inside the turn) late in the turn. That forces you to use a bigger re-centering move to get back to neutral and into the next turn. If the body is moving there already it eliminates the whole problem because you simply do not need the big re-centering move since you aren't stuck so far inside the turn that late.
The two paths theory is very important here. Think of them as a duet. One of the singers is early / late, or sharp/flat. The whole piece suffers as a consequence. ILE, OLR, it really doesn't matter if one or the other parts of the body stalls and it loses momentum. The timing is thrown off. Eliminating the corrective move by staying contemporaneous with both is the simplest and most effective solution. Does that take timing and practice? Absolutely! Is it hard? Hardly, we do the same thing when we run. The body is falling forward and our feet and legs move to keep us from falling on our face. The difference in skiing is that we do not use the legs quite the same way. The feet do not swing, nor do we pull back the leg/foot the same way. Skiing is a little more similar to hopping in that respect. In any case we can tap into that skill easily as long as we are not afraid to move the body down the hill along with the feet/skis. Which takes some confidence and that comes with mileage.

Which all leads back to the what do I do to create early edge and still be progressive. Stop thinking in an all or nothing mode. Replace that with progressively building and create edge angle through the first half to two thirds of the turn, then in the second half, or last third of the turn work on finishing your turns across the hill but also getting your body back over the skis and moving into the next turn. Doing that will allow you to apply early edge and work the ski because you are simply set up better to start the next turn.
post #49 of 57
Aareses,

Ski with more playfulness and variety. Long-Medium-Short turns. Vary your rhythm. Short-Short-Long-Medium-Long-Short-you get the picture.

The sequence of your movements is ok for now ... now play with varying the tempo of the skills you've learned. Your volume control in terms of turn size-rhythm-tempo is in a very narrow range.
post #50 of 57
Good work Andrew, I think there is some great information to take away from this thread.

I agree that you will make a great instructor and this process is reinforcing that.

I know that you think about skiing 24/7 and I think that is awesome. As an IT and tech guy you love to analyze every aspect. I too am an engineer (but you already knew that), and can easily get caught up in the analysis, but too much can lead to analysis paralysis.

As you read these replies you are finding some that connect with you and others that may be a bit confusing. Many are saying the same thing and it can be as simple as the language used or visualization that make the difference in the connection.

Take what you are learning here into your teaching experiences and training this fall/winter, I know you will be working on your skiing but also look at how those connections are being made with students either when shadowing classes or when you get the chance to teach for yourself.

Keep up the good work

-R
post #51 of 57
Good work Andrew, I think there is some great information to take away from this thread.

I agree that you will make a great instructor and this process is reinforcing that.

I know that you think about skiing 24/7 and I think that is awesome. As an IT and tech guy you love to analyze every aspect. I too am an engineer, and can easily get caught up in the analysis. But too much can lead to analysis paralysis.

As you read these replies you are finding some that connect with you and others that may be a bit confusing. Many are saying the same thing and it can be as simple as the language used or visualization that make the difference in the connection.

Take what you are learning here to your teaching experiences and training this fall, I know you will be working on your skiing but also look at how those connections are being made with students, either when shadowing classes or when you get the chance to teach for yourself.

Keep up the good work

-R
post #52 of 57
Somehow, I missed your response Andrew.

Given your your athletic ability, I would cagtegorize your progress as just fair. The amount of things rattling around in you head must be very challenging. Your analysis reflects too many items. There are key movements that if you were to get right, many of your analytical comments would follow.

What I would do is concentrate on what you believe is the most significant movement -- the foundation movement that you need to get right before proceeding to the next level.

Your analysis is too broad, and while all the points are extremely detailed, I have a feeling that you believe you need to nail them all to go forwards. Whoever has implanted that thinking is simply not right. You cannot go forwards when you are trying to move a dozen different ways at once.

Focus on one simple aspect of your skiing, and other aspects will follow.

For you, given that you will be receiving more PSIA based instruction, I suggest that you focus on flexing and extending. Increase your range of motion. Start with the up/down movements, staying low in transition, and extening your legs only during the belly of the turn. Vary the speed of flexion to release the body downhill. DO NOT attempt to get to the new edges ASAP. Allow the body to tilt the other way to get to edge.

Later, you can focus on edging movements. But right now, you need to increase the ROM and get the timing/coordination of your flexion/extension corrected. In this skiing model, there is no up in transition, and there is length in the belly of the turn.

It is a simple movement, but one that is the cornerstone of modern skiing.

Try this drill:

Flex so deeply that you can grab your ankles at neutral. Allow your body to topple while flexed, and extend to maintain snow contact.

From this drill you can later start working on angulation, counter-rotation and early edging.

In short, forget about skiing the perfect 13.5 m turn. Build your balance ability, increase your ROM and watch your confidence go way up.....

There is nothing more to skiing than Balance, Movement and Confidence. Where an instructor ought to be able to help, is to teach you the right movements...... You supply the balance and success supplies the confidence.

Good luck.
post #53 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aareses View Post
I made the commitment this season to REALLY learn the sport by taking a lot of lessons, skiing a lot of days, reading about, and dreaming of skiing. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I have to learn. My goal is to become a good skier and the best skier I can possibly be. I have done a lot of reading, watched videos, and used epicski.com forums as resources.
I am very thankful for any positive feedback or advice to better my personal skiing and eventually instructing.

Andrew
Andrew,
First of all, let me commend you on your progress in skiing but just as importantly on the course which you have chosen to become a proficient and enthusiastic skier. Your commitment to beginning your quest by enlisting the help of the finest coaches and your study of theory and technique off of the hill are an example that we as instructors would love to see in all our students.
I find it much easier to teach and find satisfactory improvement in a new skier than in trying to teach an established skier who has learned defensive inefficient movements which hinder their progress to efficient skiing. Some scientist somewhere has determined that it takes 1,800 movement repetitions to develop muscle memory. When a skier learns without proper coaching, their movements are mostly inefficient defensive moves against gravity. It doesn't take long before these movements become automatic in response to terrain, sensory feedback, psychological responses, etc. As an instructor, eliminating these automatic muscle movement patterns can be difficult. Once the neural pathways are established they tend to resist change. So, congratulations on seeking to learn it correctly before learning it incorrectly.
Since you asked for a comment about your skiing, I would suggest one simple focus for you to consider. Some in this forum have suggested that you need more flexion/extension in your skiing. Based on your 60 day video I think that your flexion/extension is adequate for your desired outcome of turn shape and size and for the terrain which you skied. Try though to use your flexion/extension in a continuous flow, i.e. when you have flexed to your desired extreme begin then to extend again. Try not to become static during the last parts of your turn. With shaped skis it is so easy to "park and ride" since the feeling of gliding on the edges of your skis is so cool. In doing so though you lose the "dance" of skiing as well as the flow into the apex of the next turn and the physical assistance of contraction/expansion of your muscles.
Congratulations again on your introduction to skiing. Your enthusiasm evidenced by skiing a narrow "manky" snow corridor in August is infectious. Keep up the good work.
post #54 of 57
Andrew,
I just watched your 60 day video, year one. As a long time colleague of Rick and Tyler, I am pleased to read of your high regard for their coaching. I couldn't agree more.

Some observations:
You are standing on your skis well,
You are making parallel turns (Not all skiers do)
You are developing nice arm and hand use and discipline.
You are engaging the new edges before the fall line.
The inside half of your body is ahead (leading the way) through the arc.
You are generally turning your legs and not your upper body.

I think I could go on. I would recommend you keep listening to your coaches, and keep up the good work. I am sensing that you are using a similar radius turn no matter the slope, or snow condition. I feel it is time for you to make sure you are mixing up turn radius on purpose. Try to change you rate and duration of leg turning and ski tipping in order to accomplish varying radii. Getting stuck in one radius in gonna hurt you if you don't start moving at differing intensity, rate, timing, duration...

I look forward to seeing you on Mt. Hood,
Greg
BTW, I think you are ready to teach, and you need to call Jeremy at Meadows and get on the roster
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricklyons View Post
Good work Andrew, I think there is some great information to take away from this thread.

I agree that you will make a great instructor and this process is reinforcing that.

I know that you think about skiing 24/7 and I think that is awesome. As an IT and tech guy you love to analyze every aspect. I too am an engineer (but you already knew that), and can easily get caught up in the analysis, but too much can lead to analysis paralysis.

As you read these replies you are finding some that connect with you and others that may be a bit confusing. Many are saying the same thing and it can be as simple as the language used or visualization that make the difference in the connection.

Take what you are learning here into your teaching experiences and training this fall/winter, I know you will be working on your skiing but also look at how those connections are being made with students either when shadowing classes or when you get the chance to teach for yourself.

Keep up the good work

-R
Quote:
Originally Posted by GR8TRN View Post
Andrew,
I just watched your 60 day video, year one. As a long time colleague of Rick and Tyler, I am pleased to read of your high regard for their coaching. I couldn't agree more.

Some observations:
You are standing on your skis well,
You are making parallel turns (Not all skiers do)
You are developing nice arm and hand use and discipline.
You are engaging the new edges before the fall line.
The inside half of your body is ahead (leading the way) through the arc.
You are generally turning your legs and not your upper body.

I think I could go on. I would recommend you keep listening to your coaches, and keep up the good work. I am sensing that you are using a similar radius turn no matter the slope, or snow condition. I feel it is time for you to make sure you are mixing up turn radius on purpose. Try to change you rate and duration of leg turning and ski tipping in order to accomplish varying radii. Getting stuck in one radius in gonna hurt you if you don't start moving at differing intensity, rate, timing, duration...

I look forward to seeing you on Mt. Hood,
Greg
BTW, I think you are ready to teach, and you need to call Jeremy at Meadows and get on the roster
Andrew, I watched your video's and I was extremely impressed with how far you have come in such a short time...good job to you and your coaches.

My husband is a ski instructor and a microwave RF hardware designer. He understands the physics, bio-mechanics, and the "cause and effect" of skiing, which is very helpful (for me as well). I understand how you love to analyze EVERYTHING, but listen to your coach Rick Lyons, when he warns you that "too much can lead to analysis paralysis". Don't take all the comments on this forum to heart, especially when the information is a bit confusing...again, listen to Rick.

I agree with GR8TRN's observations and that you should now concentrate on "mixing up turn radius on purpose." I would suggest you start playing more and thinking less.

I observed some technical issues in your skiing, but at this time, I feel mileage is what you need most...practice what you learned at GS camp and in time you will become a phenomenal skier. Be patient...I know that's difficult, I'm a perfectionist and I want everything NOW as well!

I've been coached by Dave Lyon, Nelson, and Greg (GR8TRN) and I have skied with Rick, Tyler, and Jeremy...what can I say, they're all amazing. Oh...and call Jeremy at Meadows TODAY!
post #56 of 57
Well done Andrew. It's great for all of us to see someone get so hooked on skiing and throw themselves into it, relatively late in life.
Funny that you should be from Yakima - reminds me of a certain 51-year-old who has been skiing all his life, but still loves it so much that he puts on a tight suit and goes racing against kids a third of his age
post #57 of 57
Thread Starter 
Thanks to all the thoughtful posters! There are many very meaningful statements to me here. I have read this thread several times and created a list of the items that made sense to me, items I could start to work on and take into my next level of progression.

The items I plan to work on are:

1) Inside Leg Flexion/Outside Leg Extension.
2) Learn different movements, such as SRT, swing turns, edge control movements (pressure control movements later).
3) Vary turn radius often and control speed without losing rhythm or form.
4) Work on Balance skills.
5) Become more fluid (tie movements together).
6) Read PSIA Alpine Technical and Core Concepts Manuals (prep for teaching).
7) Increase Range of Motion and Angulation
8) Stop thinking so much, just move and ski!
9) Do not tackle this entire list at once!

I had the fortune to work with Rick again and he taught me some different movements, including SRT, swing turns, and several edge control skills/drills. He also wanted me to vary my turn radius and remain fluid. Varying turn radius combined with ILF/OLE was pretty damn cool I must say! I really enjoyed the new sensations and am still working to master them. He mentioned steps 1-3 above before this thread developed, but I did not fully understand at the time. Later I understood, and of course he was spot on, which is one of the reasons I call him Yoda!

I have also recently gone out and tried to shut most of it down and just ski. However, I have learned so many things over the last few months that have helped my skiing a lot, it's hard to shut them down because if I do, the skiing I know I am capable of suffers. It’s like a trying to keep a bunch of rabbits in a box. I have learned if I shut it ALL down, rabbits start jumping out of the box and I lose one or two good things in my skiing. I am trying to develop the balance of keeping the skills I have learned contained and work on a max of one thing at a time, while not trying to think too much. I believe this is part of the evolutionary process of achieving ownership of those new skills.

BigE: On the Day 60 Video, I wasn't thinking about all of those things at once. The list were the skills and drills I worked on over 10 days of skiing, one or two items per day, but I understand what you are saying for sure. I agree, too many things at once will paralyze (I have experienced that also).

That is representative of my last few days on snow (well...slushy corn snow), the rest I am saving for later. I am also reading the PSIA manuals for preparation to be an instructor this season. I am strongly considering reading Harald Harb's book also.

I have also been working on balancing skills OFF the snow, such as a wobble board, standing on one foot when I can and using my big toe/little toe to feel those "edges" working.

I have a new friend I met at Timberline Race Camp, he recorded me on our first day of race camp this summer (before we received coaching) doing short radius turns on Palmer. He recorded me again three weeks ago doing short radius turns on Palmer, then gave me the video last Friday. It is not very high quality, but it was nice to have. To my untrained eye, I saw a DRAMATIC difference in the way I skied SRT a few months ago compared to after working with Rick on SRT a few runs one day. In the most recent clip, my focus was to carve SRT, use more ILF/OLE, aim directly down the fall-line, and MOVE. My friend (Level II PSIA) said he thought the difference was dramatic. I may have a long way to go on SRT, but I felt pretty good watching the difference. Here is the link if you want to watch the short clips or let me know if I'm seeing things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sztx4Z--ws

Thanks for the positive feedback, it has been great for me!
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