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Powder skiing MA

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
Lets take a look at this skier found on youtube and give some MA. I think the skier represents a typical intermediate that skis all over the mountain without too much trouble. Is she dooing fine or is there room for improvement? If there is, what kind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O381j...eature=related

post #2 of 26
how about option 3

she's doing fine but....

there is room for improvement. ask yourself what were her goals for that run? she got down the run with rhythm, speed control, and maintained balance. she even has well timed pole touches. My best guess is those were excactly her goals that run. She didnt care that she didnt have separation, that she sometime lifts her inside leg, and that she goes up and over instead of compressing her legs. She also didnt expect somone online to pick apart her skiing.

the first thing I would work on is some separation between her upper and lower body, but quite honestly its a moot point because to her ski is skiing how she wants to be skiing. unless of course she takes a lesson.

I would like to add that this lady has a better clue about what makes a good skier than an average instructor. Fitness, balance, time on snow, and mentally telling yourself to keep going and looking down the hill are huge parts of skiing. Ski instructors put way to much emphasis on technique with being straight up with people about there lack of personal fitness. that at 5 days a year lessons arent the best way to get better at skiing, skiing more and a lesson here and there would be best.

for instance there were L3 instructors who came to snowbird for the PSIA spring camp or whatever its called that couldnt ski powder as well as that lady. so its appalling to call the L3 instructor with no versatility an expert as it is to call the lady and intermiate.
post #3 of 26
I like the way she is farming the snow/laying her tracks down right next to the last skier, preserving the snow on this beautiful slope. If more skiers used this tactic in the U.S., skiing/riding would be a lot better for everyone.

As far as her technique goes, she is obviously on her heels consequently forcing her to use a bit of a hop to redirect her skis. This causes her to use more muscular effort than is necessary. If she could learn to project her CM across her skis & downhill into the new turn, her skiing would be smoother, & more centered. She needs to trust that she can press the tips of the skis into the snow & feel them bend, not bog.


JF
post #4 of 26
She should learn to have her skis turn her rather than the other way around. Just my humble opinion.
post #5 of 26
Thread Starter 
Good feedback boyz. Yes, there is room for improvement but proper MA does not include hacking apart anyones skiing. Even if its randomly pulled off youtube. Ok, so she is above intermediate. I can live with that. Depends on how you define intermediate. But I too think that she is more focussed on having fun and feeling the freedome of skiing powder than any particular movement or skill. Still, there are stuff that we as instructors can comment on which would make her experiance even more enjoyable. A couple of suggestions allredy, like projecting her CoM more down the hill. "How" is my question?
post #6 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
She should learn to have her skis turn her rather than the other way around. Just my humble opinion.
What do you mean? The skis will not turn by themselves. They need movements in order to start reacting. What kind of movements is required in order to make the skis turn her insted of the opposite way arround?
post #7 of 26
Try to tip the skis (without sinking too much) and bend them more.
What would you say about these guys (also randomly pulled off youtube), other than they are not as good farmers and the music's good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVeDZV7BUA&NR=1
post #8 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Try to tip the skis (without sinking too much) and bend them more.
What would you say about these guys (also randomly pulled off youtube), other than they are not as good farmers and the musics good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVeDZV7BUA&NR=1
Wow, great conditions and excellet music.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Good feedback boyz. Yes, there is room for improvement but proper MA does not include hacking apart anyones skiing. Even if its randomly pulled off youtube. Ok, so she is above intermediate. I can live with that. Depends on how you define intermediate. But I too think that she is more focussed on having fun and feeling the freedome of skiing powder than any particular movement or skill. Still, there are stuff that we as instructors can comment on which would make her experiance even more enjoyable. A couple of suggestions already, like projecting her CoM more down the hill. "How" is my question?
I would say that upper and lower body separation should be taught before COM moving more aggressively down the hill.

How? there are so many different ways to teach both these skills. its all sound boring here and most of my stuff is on the fly to person I am teaching not pre thought out methods

Ghost do you relize how many times I have had to tone back edging effort to make someone an effective offpiste skier?
post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Try to tip the skis (without sinking too much) and bend them more.
What would you say about these guys (also randomly pulled off youtube), other than they are not as good farmers and the musics good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVeDZV7BUA&NR=1
skier 1 at 14 seconds - I would change absolutely nothing for those conditions on that terrain. I would however actaully like to see the guy ski some tougher terrain.

Skier 2@42 seconds - back on the hills, lateral instead of diagonal transtions, but overall a pretty good skier. I would first get them on longer wider skis with more tip and just get them to trust thier skis more. this would be a very tiring way of skiing all day.

also skier 2 appear to be a young teenager(10-15ish) and could be suffering from to stiff of boots in additions to what I said above about undersize skis. I would look at equipment before skier in this case.

skier 1 @1:40 alittle back here but I suspect it maybe wind crust. again good but not ideal skis being used for these condtions.

on his cliff huck he just fall instead of jumping in to the air. Not being active is the number one reason for falling in this case not jumping and just falling cause him to go backseat. this is quite honestly a cliff I could do with out thinking, it quite small.

skier 3@2:11 pole timing is not with thier movement accross the skis. it not even close. also the movement again is lateral and not diagonol. IMO lateral movement skiers are at best level 7-8 once they look down the hill and start moving down the hill then they become high level 8 low level 9s
post #11 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
I would say that upper and lower body separation should be taught before COM moving more aggressively down the hill.

How? there are so many different ways to teach both these skills. its all sound boring here and most of my stuff is on the fly to person I am teaching not pre thought out methods

Ghost do you relize how many times I have had to tone back edging effort to make someone an effective offpiste skier?
Check this video out as ref to your comment of edging and offpist skiing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olZHCdEWyM

In todays world of carving where the only thing we need to do is to put our skis on edge, let it be athletic club racing or intermediate park and ride, we miss out on the momentum we get from working with out legs.
post #12 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
skier 1 at 14 seconds - I would change absolutely nothing for those conditions on that terrain. I would however actaully like to see the guy ski some tougher terrain.

Skier 2@42 seconds - back on the hills, lateral instead of diagonal transtions, but overall a pretty good skier. I would first get them on longer wider skis with more tip and just get them to trust thier skis more. this would be a very tiring way of skiing all day.

also skier 2 appear to be a young teenager(10-15ish) and could be suffering from to stiff of boots in additions to what I said above about undersize skis. I would look at equipment before skier in this case.

skier 1 @1:40 alittle back here but I suspect it maybe wind crust. again good but not ideal skis being used for these condtions.

on his cliff huck he just fall instead of jumping in to the air. Not being active is the number one reason for falling in this case not jumping and just falling cause him to go backseat. this is quite honestly a cliff I could do with out thinking, it quite small.

skier 3@2:11 pole timing is not with thier movement accross the skis. it not even close. also the movement again is lateral and not diagonol. IMO lateral movement skiers are at best level 7-8 once they look down the hill and start moving down the hill then they become high level 8 low level 9s
Its probably father and son & co. Father, skier 1, is not a bad skier and could maybe do much better if he was skiing with better skiers. Now he kind of taking care of his family and too much rippin would make the kids feel bad. I could be wrong but it looks that way. For example the cliff jump is nothing he would want his 10y old kid getting hooked at. Clearly he fails it on purpose. But it was a great line he took and without hesitation. I dont even do small cliff jumps like that.
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post
Ghost do you relize how many times I have had to tone back edging effort to make someone an effective offpiste skier?
It's not hard to imagine. Too much edge and they can't ski at all, too little and they just ski poorly.
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Its probably father and son & co. Father, skier 1, is not a bad skier and could maybe do much better if he was skiing with better skiers. Now he kind of taking care of his family and too much rippin would make the kids feel bad. I could be wrong but it looks that way. For example the cliff jump is nothing he would want his 10y old kid getting hooked at. Clearly he fails it on purpose. But it was a great line he took and without hesitation. I dont even do small cliff jumps like that.
he didnt fall that on purpose your assuming alot....

personally a 10 year old going off a cliff that size who can remain in balance is not a bad thing. Air time and drop are a part of being able to ski everywhere and build a complete agile skier. if they fall they fall who care my guess is they will think its awesome and want to keep going.

I have seen tons of kids tumble off jump like that and to be honest the only injury I had in a lesson in the past couple year was due to steepness, ice, and a prereleasing binding.

I can promise you a kid(or any skier) that can due small to medium control jumps can do much better turns than a skier than cant. Plus it opens more of the resort to them.

although I rarely showed kids drops. I would show most of them how to stay balance in small jumps. the better 10-17 year old would sometime get to do some small 3-5 drop with me but only after I could see they could maintain air balance and not become ragdolls on the landing. I think any great kids instructor ski the mountain in the most fun way possible. You think a 10 year old cares if he can make perfect fallline short raduis turns all the way down a blue groomer? ever if he can the chance of him wanting to that is slim to none or more like none. Kids want to ski the mountain and have fun. Sometime something slightly scary is fun to them. As long as its a safe scary.

A perfect run to a kid is going to have jumps lots of jumps, wall rides, short steep drops. whoop de doos(like a skiercross course), trees, halfpipe natural and man made and trust me a couple wrecks(if you dont have fun wrecking you pysche is too far out from the kids your teaching maybe you should be teaching adults). you can do this with beginners to expert just by choosing different terrain.

terrain can teach alot of stuff with out you ever opening your mouth. talk to them and leatn about thier interest.I know instructor like to hear themselves speak way to much. have them tell you jokes, be a goofball around them. the last thing they want is a teacher.
post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 
BushwackingPA, I agree with everything you say but I was thinking from a parents perspective. Ive been teaching kids for 15y+ and seen and heard and done most of it but being father to two boyz changes everything. And Im sure Im not only speaking for myselfe. I sure am happy Im still alive after skiing those closed areas during winter storms in the Alps over the years, something I do not want my kids doing.

Jumping is one thing and kliff drops annother. Ive done my share of jumping but cliff jumps are not my kind of skiing. My kids do not want anyting else than to jump. If I was doing drops in front of them offpist you know what they would be dooing behind my back? Shitty thing this thing we call responsibilitie. Had a 4y old student brake his leg. I do not want that to happen to my kids. Over the years I have become more restraint with just plain out going crazy with students. I leave that to younger colleges. Im the manager now, the booring guy taking all the complaints. But you keep up what you are dooing. I know its great and a lot of fun.

Actually, jumping is one of the skills kids lack the most nowadays, especially jr racers. Its become a problem now that its only tipping and edging. I think park skiers are much better at jumping. Just look at the kids in the vid. They do not know how to unweight and pump with their legs.
post #16 of 26
looks to me like he didn't anticipate the reaction force on landing and got caught. Probably been a while since he last did a little jump like that. It's happened to me. I'm a dad too, and I wouldn't mind my kids doing that at all. Handing over the car keys is what scares me, though I must admit my daughter seems much smarter than I was at her age when it comes to driving fast.
post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
looks to me like he didn't anticipate the reaction force on landing and got caught. Probably been a while since he last did a little jump like that. It's happened to me. I'm a dad too, and I wouldn't mind my kids doing that at all. Handing over the car keys is what scares me, though I must admit my daughter seems much smarter than I was at her age when it comes to driving fast.
I would also not bash the guy for a whimpy crash like that. I think it was kind of fun to see the actual crash. Normally you would have edited that part out off the video. This was kind of like a behind the camera thing, a trailer. It shows confidence.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
Try to tip the skis (without sinking too much) and bend them more.
What would you say about these guys (also randomly pulled off youtube), other than they are not as good farmers and the music's good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVeDZV7BUA&NR=1
Thanks for the link Ghost, fun to, watch, the kid was great, looks like he would be alot of fun to ski with. I especially likes the way he mixed up his turn sizes to flow with the terrain instead of forcing a short turn he lengthened a couple out and it was smooth, wish there was more footage of his skiing.
One comment on the fellow with the tan/orange jacket and back pack, looks like he drops his hands/arms on pole touches which causes his shoulders to rotate, thereby forcing him to twist his shoulders to start the next turn. In powder that twist could be enough to get one hung up and out of balance such that a both legs might not work together resulting in a fall and not so happy skiing partners.
post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Check this video out as ref to your comment of edging and offpist skiing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olZHCdEWyM

In todays world of carving where the only thing we need to do is to put our skis on edge, let it be athletic club racing or intermediate park and ride, we miss out on the momentum we get from working with out legs.
quick question on how to chain those off piste turns together smoother. i find that my skis will also often get caught going at different speeds. I can identify with the issues that the student skiier is facing in that video. In those conditions i find it unsure when to turn and how to absorb the terrain better resulting in some awarkness @ 1:36 secs in to the clip. so the question is how to get better? tx
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapient007 View Post
quick question on how to chain those off piste turns together smoother. i find that my skis will also often get caught going at different speeds. I can identify with the issues that the student skiier is facing in that video. In those conditions i find it unsure when to turn and how to absorb the terrain better resulting in some awarkness @ 1:36 secs in to the clip. so the question is how to get better? tx
Excellent question sapient007. IMO modern carving has caused a new generation of skiers that cannot ski properly off pist in conditions like in the video. The kids are great skiers offcourse but they also display the lack of sertain skills and movements that the coach for example has in his tool box. Stuff that is needed in order to smoothly link turns in total controll in condititions like that. Thats what you want, right? Thats what we all want anyway!

First thing is that you need to ski with your skis deep inside the snow and not on top. In order to do that you need to have your weight forward like on a groomed slope. All this is not possible if you are in a wide stance so you need to close your stance. You need to be able to pass through the snow with your leggs as one big log and not as two skinny sticks (mother of all bad rotation in powder). Stand on both feet and do not try to lift one or the other up or only pressure your outside ski. Look for a float, a cussion under both feet. Check out the coach, balance forward, feet together and skis deep down below.

Second, you need to link turns and use the momentum from previous turn to fuel your next (kids have problem with this in the vid). In Austria one method to teach powder skiing is to start out on a medium flat part and simply go straight down the fall line and bounce up and down. Once you get a feeling for the bouncing, start making short turns where you make the transigion when you are up, and gradually increase the turning. Best is a slope where the pich gradually increases and fresh light one foot powder. Next step is to start absorbing that up movement with your legs and flex through the transition. If you are not working with your legs in powder you are not dooing it right. However, if you are dooing it right you are not getting as tired as if you are skiing like the boyz, forcing every turn and continuously recovering from the back seat.

Third, you need speed and GO attitude. Hesitation will work against you. You need speed and you need to try to delay your time in the fall line. You need to be hungry for that fall line. Thats where you want to point your skis. Never hurry across the fall line. That is what the coach is dooing, he skis the fast line slow so to speak while the kids ski the slow line fast.

Note it looks like its a race camp but it dumped and made gate skiing impossible so they whent powder skiing just for fun. The coach is probably a very skilled racer as still he skis differently than the kids even though he probably thaught them to ski like they do. I bet there is no coaching involved, its simply for fun. Dad making the video.

T
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowbowler View Post
One comment on the fellow with the tan/orange jacket and back pack, looks like he drops his hands/arms on pole touches which causes his shoulders to rotate, thereby forcing him to twist his shoulders to start the next turn. In powder that twist could be enough to get one hung up and out of balance such that a both legs might not work together resulting in a fall and not so happy skiing partners.
Thanks for the insight. I saw the shoulder twist, but didn't realize it was caused by the hands/arms dropping on pole touch.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
First thing is that you need to ski with your skis deep inside the snow and not on top. In order to do that you need to have your weight forward like on a groomed slope. All this is not possible if you are in a wide stance so you need to close your stance. You need to be able to pass through the snow with your leggs as one big log and not as two skinny sticks (mother of all bad rotation in powder). Stand on both feet and do not try to lift one or the other up or only pressure your outside ski. Look for a float, a cussion under both feet. Check out the coach, balance forward, feet together and skis deep down below.

Second, you need to link turns and use the momentum from previous turn to fuel your next (kids have problem with this in the vid). In Austria one method to teach powder skiing is to start out on a medium flat part and simply go straight down the fall line and bounce up and down. Once you get a feeling for the bouncing, start making short turns where you make the transigion when you are up, and gradually increase the turning. Best is a slope where the pich gradually increases and fresh light one foot powder. Next step is to start absorbing that up movement with your legs and flex through the transition. If you are not working with your legs in powder you are not dooing it right. However, if you are dooing it right you are not getting as tired as if you are skiing like the boyz, forcing every turn and continuously recovering from the back seat.
The above is good advice. It would have made learning to ski powder so much easier for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Third, you need speed and GO attitude. Hesitation will work against you. You need speed and you need to try to delay your time in the fall line. You need to be hungry for that fall line. Thats where you want to point your skis. Never hurry across the fall line. That is what the coach is dooing, he skis the fast line slow so to speak while the kids ski the slow line fast.
T
Truth.
post #23 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
The above is good advice. It would have made learning to ski powder so much easier for me.
How did you learn to ski powder? Why would the Austrian method have have helped you?
post #24 of 26
much thanks. looking forward to this season and try some real skiing. too bad i found this forum a little late in my ski history
post #25 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
How did you learn to ski powder? Why would the Austrian method have have helped you?
I learned to ski ice first, basically carving big turns at high speed for years until I found powder. When I first tried powder, I found that tipping the skis made me sink, having too much weight on the outside ski caused that one ski to sink in sideways and me to be askew and off balance. I got by by mostly straight lining and turning only slightly. Finally someone gave me a few pointers, re using both skis as a single platform, and I figured out not to tip the skis so much. The rhythm would have been a big help too, in terms of recovering depth between turns, and loading the ski in that rhythm so that the decambered - straight matched the turn transition of my turns. Mind you, in those days I wasn't into making powder 8s, just had to turn to avoid obstacles in my quest for speed.
post #26 of 26
Thread Starter 
Ghost, great stuff .

Sapient007, its never too late, glad you like it . Wellcome aboard.
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