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Can skis be "too sharp?" - Page 2

post #31 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
I know what it is, and it does pile up on the front of the square edge of the stone when I run the hard stone down the base edge.

I skip that last step with the gummi stone.

Once, it's knocked off, I figure what's the point? it does not cut my finger, so the hanging burr is gone right?
Nothing piles up on the square edge of stone when i run a hard stone down the base edge.

the burr is microscopic. You cannot see it with the naked eye.
post #32 of 84
Then what am I seeing, if not the burr? The skis are very sharp afterwards. They feel like they could cut you, but they don't. They're not grabby on hardpack -- but they will slice into it.
post #33 of 84
I like to ski arc to arc. I like my skis as sharp as I can get them tip to tail. I have never had a problem skiing any of them. The only pair of skis I ever had that required me to be extremely sharp while skiing them was as an old pair of Kästle Special R which I had tuned to 0 and 3. Any ski with any kind of a base angle above 0.3 was just fine. Even my SGs work just fine at 0.5 base sharp enough to shave.

That being said, I know of many mogul skiers who detest a sharp edge and I must admit I suck at moguls.
post #34 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by comprex View Post
Boot cuff tilt or real cant?
Canting, not cuff alignment.
post #35 of 84
Can a ski be too sharp? Sure.
  • If you're in an event that favors gliding then the skis need to be beveled to allow more glide. Too much edge is slower in this example.
  • Too acute an angle on slalom skis makes it difficult to get the ski to perform all of the manuevers required to negotiate the course. I saw this in two Aspen WC races. Most of the girls were using an 83 degree edge which made the skis very demanding. Over half of the field DNF'ed and what I heard being said is the skis were tuned wrong for that course, they were too sharp.
As some will probably say this isn't definitive proof but I still remember the days when a good tune was flat and square. Do that on today's boards and tell me if your skis aren't a lot more demanding. In most cased too demanding.
post #36 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Can a ski be too sharp? Sure.
  • If you're in an event that favors gliding then the skis need to be beveled to allow more glide. Too much edge is slower in this example.
  • Too acute an angle on slalom skis makes it difficult to get the ski to perform all of the manuevers required to negotiate the course. I saw this in two Aspen WC races. Most of the girls were using an 83 degree edge which made the skis very demanding. Over half of the field DNF'ed and what I heard being said is the skis were tuned wrong for that course, they were too sharp.
As some will probably say this isn't definitive proof but I still remember the days when a good tune was flat and square. Do that on today's boards and tell me if your skis aren't a lot more demanding. In most cased too demanding.
Your description is not too sharp, your description describes incorrect geometry for the intended use. Wrong bevel angles for the intended purpose.

An entirely different kettle of fish from being too sharp! You can have correct bevel angles but a dull edge.

We are talking about the sharpness of the edge, not which bevel geometry works best for a particular use.
post #37 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Your description is not too sharp, your description describes incorrect geometry for the intended use. Wrong bevel angles for the intended purpose.

An entirely different kettle of fish from being too sharp! You can have correct bevel angles but a dull edge.

We are talking about the sharpness of the edge, not which bevel geometry works best for a particular use.
And here I was reading through this looking specifically for comments on bevel angles, thinking that this was what the thread was about.

How odd.
post #38 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Can a ski be too sharp? Sure.
  • If you're in an event that favors gliding then the skis need to be beveled to allow more glide. Too much edge is slower in this example.
  • Too acute an angle on slalom skis makes it difficult to get the ski to perform all of the manuevers required to negotiate the course. I saw this in two Aspen WC races. Most of the girls were using an 83 degree edge which made the skis very demanding. Over half of the field DNF'ed and what I heard being said is the skis were tuned wrong for that course, they were too sharp.
As some will probably say this isn't definitive proof but I still remember the days when a good tune was flat and square. Do that on today's boards and tell me if your skis aren't a lot more demanding. In most cased too demanding.
We amateur racers have been using .5 or 1 base angle and up to 3 side angle. I've been skiing that for 3 years now and was considering increasing the side to maybe 4. One you do though its not easy to go back on a particular ski so I have been hesitant. Your post is a clue that I should stick with what I have been using.
post #39 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
And here I was reading through this looking specifically for comments on bevel angles, thinking that this was what the thread was about.

How odd.
Due to the importance of bevel angle, we have given it it's own thread. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...ighlight=bevel
post #40 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
We amateur racers have been using .5 or 1 base angle and up to 3 side angle. I've been skiing that for 3 years now and was considering increasing the side to maybe 4. One you do though its not easy to go back on a particular ski so I have been hesitant. Your post is a clue that I should stick with what I have been using.
a 4 degree side edge on slalom ski on very, very hard snow is not that extreme. I would not use it on a Gs ski but you can try it. it is very easy to go back to a 3.

You can easily change side edges at will. In fact when I initially tune my skis after i stone grind, i usually start with a panser file & bevelr 1 degree over my final bevel angle. so if I want a 3 iIstart with a 4. if there is a lot of sidewall material still on the ski, I start at 2-3 degrees over my final angle to blend the sidewall and edge. this removes sidewall material but not much edge material. (actually a 7 degree, Artech ski sells a side edge bevel guide at 7 degress specifically for theis purpose) this technique is called Backfiling.

On one pair of my skis I use a 2 degree and use the same process.

My point in the posy above is that the origianl OP was talking about skis being too sharp which is completly different form what bevel angles are used.
post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
a 4 degree side edge on slalom ski on very, very hard snow is not that extreme. I would not use it on a Gs ski but you can try it. it is very easy to go back to a 3.

You can easily change side edges at will. In fact when I initially tune my skis after i stone grind, i usually start with a panser file & bevelr 1 degree over my final bevel angle. so if I want a 3 iIstart with a 4. if there is a lot of sidewall material still on the ski, I start at 2-3 degrees over my final angle to blend the sidewall and edge. this removes sidewall material but not much edge material. (actually a 7 degree, Artech ski sells a side edge bevel guide at 7 degress specifically for theis purpose) this technique is called Backfiling.

On one pair of my skis I use a 2 degree and use the same process.

My point in the posy above is that the origianl OP was talking about skis being too sharp which is completly different form what bevel angles are used.
Well of course you can go back from a 4 to a 3 but you're using up metal that way. On my last pair of skis I used up the metal to the point where my tech told me I was on my last tune due to edges and bases and was pretty sad about that. I had been noticing that the camber was almost gone too and a short time later one of them became "over cambered" and they were done anyway. Atomic SX11's- great ski.
post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Man View Post
Well of course you can go back from a 4 to a 3 but you're using up metal that way. On my last pair of skis I used up the metal to the point where my tech told me I was on my last tune due to edges and bases and was pretty sad about that. I had been noticing that the camber was almost gone too and a short time later one of them became "over cambered" and they were done anyway. Atomic SX11's- great ski.
they were A GREAT SKI. You must have done some serious filing!
post #43 of 84
YES short answer

Long answer: Independently from bevel, the edge can be too sharp at certain points along its length for certain skis in certain conditions. I tend to find many GS skis more tractable with the edge in front of the tip contact fairly round and then mildly detuned some distance past the contact point, to be determined a centimeter at a time on the hill.

There is a physical explanation for this. The ski on snow is a dynamic event, and at high edge angles with a deflected shovel a lot of grip can create a slip stick situation that may be energetic enough to disturb grip along a significant portion of the ski. Slightly reducing grip at the extremities may improve this situation, as might design changes in the ski.

The issue described above is less likely in the tail for a variety of reasons...higher stiffness per unit length, less shape, less mass, smaller slip angle at the edge.

You can now all feel free to flame me and blame this on an overactive imagination and lack of skill on my part.
post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
YES short answer

Long answer: Independently from bevel, the edge can be too sharp at certain points along its length for certain skis in certain conditions. I tend to find many GS skis more tractable with the edge in front of the tip contact fairly round and then mildly detuned some distance past the contact point, to be determined a centimeter at a time on the hill.

There is a physical explanation for this. The ski on snow is a dynamic event, and at high edge angles with a deflected shovel a lot of grip can create a slip stick situation that may be energetic enough to disturb grip along a significant portion of the ski. Slightly reducing grip at the extremities may improve this situation, as might design changes in the ski.

The issue described above is less likely in the tail for a variety of reasons...higher stiffness per unit length, less shape, less mass, smaller slip angle at the edge.

You can now all feel free to flame me and blame this on an overactive imagination and lack of skill on my part.
Not at all! Everyone should know what they like and use it to their best advantage!
post #45 of 84
Naw, there is nothing overactive with your imagination. You can get slip-stick chatter when you push a ski past it's limits; you can lessen this by ruining the edge so it doesn't stick, only slip. However, a little more practice and you can get more out of the ski than you could by detuning it.

Or you could just go ahead and buy a decent ski
post #46 of 84

Ran across this old thread and thought I would throw in my 2 cents...

 

YES, skis can be too "sharp", even for racing. However "sharp" means more than one might think. If you happened to watch the broadcast of the WC SG at Beaver Creek/Birds of Prey, December 3rd 2011, it was mentioned several times. The snow was very grippy. In his interview after the race Bode complained that his set-up was wrong/skis too sharp.  He said between Lake Louise and BoP they didn't have much time, but you could tell he was pissed it didn't get done. During the race the broadcasters commented about some racers skis being too sharp and that the WC doesn't ski very often on grippy snow like that and the racers that had their skis set up right had an advantage.

 

When Bode was talking set-up/sharpness it is more than just edge sharpness - it is tuning and bevels. My guess is that with the desired set-up/tune for grippy snow the edge itself is probably as sharp as usual underfoot and on the length of the ski but tips/tails are detuned and edge & base bevels are different - with more base bevel and less side edge bevel to prevent the ski from being hooky and grabby.

 

So as Slick Willy would say, "it depends on what the meaning of sharpness is". wink.gif

 

A slightly softer flexing ski can be faster in soft snow as well. The softer ski will not burrow down into the snow as much. 

 

Gotta go - time to get the flouro flowing for this weekend's races!

 

BST

 

post #47 of 84
Wow--there's a bump and a blast from the past!

I'll say one thing--for the, um, "firm" conditions we've had this season in most of Colorado, at least, the answer is NO--they cannot be too sharp! Or for strong skiers, too aggressively tuned, probably, either. A good friend of mine--a very strong skier and racer--free skis on World Cup slalom skis with zero base edge bevel and five degrees side edge bevel, kept razor sharp tip-to-tail.

The problem is that such a tune requires removal of a lot of steel, and creates an acute-angled edge that will wear down and dull quickly. Combine that with the nearly inevitable little rocks that you're going to hit in a day's free skiing, and you're doing a lot of tuning to keep that fine, sharp edge. I suspect my friend will go through several pairs of skis this season, tuning the edges right off them.

I ski a WC slalom ski in these conditions as well, and keep them about 98-99% sharp with a three degree side edge bevel. That's pretty good, and my skis last a lot longer that way. But I'd go more aggressive if I had a truck load of skis and my own personal ski tuner to keep 'em 100%!

But there's snow in the forecast tomorrow...!!!!!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #48 of 84

I had only read the first page of the thread when I did my post - didn't see page two and the good posts by justotherskipro, Atomicman, etc. Guess I was plowing ground that had already been planted! 

 

Mr. Barnes - hope you can put away the SL skis and get the powder boards out soon!

 

BST

post #49 of 84

 Ok, this is even older....

 

SKIING / CHRIS DUFRESNE : Before Too Long, Picabo Street May Be a Household Name

February 26, 1993 |CHRIS DUFRESNE  LA Times http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-26/sports/sp-500_1_picabo-street

 

Quote:

It is not uncommon for Street to shout four-letter words at the end of a run with which she is not pleased.

And after a poor showing in slalom here last week, she screamed at the top of her lungs: "My edges are too sharp!"

Translation: It's the ski tech's fault.

Major [Paul Major, women's coach]  covered his ears and winced  -1993

 

.

post #50 of 84

Skis will chatter if the skier throws them sideways down the hill instead if guiding them in a curve down the hill.  Skis with a mediocre interior construction can't help but chatter where a better ski skied and tuned exactly the same will not chatter.  Too sharp only matters with some fool runs into you.

post #51 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 Ok, this is even older....

 

SKIING / CHRIS DUFRESNE : Before Too Long, Picabo Street May Be a Household Name

February 26, 1993 |CHRIS DUFRESNE  LA Times http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-26/sports/sp-500_1_picabo-street
 
Quote:

It is not uncommon for Street to shout four-letter words at the end of a run with which she is not pleased.

And after a poor showing in slalom here last week, she screamed at the top of her lungs: "My edges are too sharp!"

Translation: It's the ski tech's fault.

Major [Paul Major, women's coach]  covered his ears and winced  -1993

 

 

 

I don't think this story is about Picabo, although she cannot be ruled out.  The story goes that after a World Cup race a rather pissy female racer snapped at her ski tech, "what the hell did you put on my skis that made them so slow".  His rely:  "you".

 

post #52 of 84

Basement Ski Tech.

 

I thank you for your last posting. I tech skis myself and have done so on a professional level for 21 years. Can skis be too sharp????? The original question. I say YES.  It all depends on the skier, the ski, the snow conditions, the disipline and the big one the detuning by the tuner. What did you put on my skis to make them so slow?  The answer YOU!!!!!    F**king eh!!!  

post #53 of 84
No. If they feel too sharp there's probably a hanging burr.
post #54 of 84

If the base edge bevel is consistent and the edge is smooth and burr free, striations minimized (polished), the edge cannot be too sharp.

 

All these cute anecdotes were on straight skis back in  the day and straight Downhills at that.

 

sharpness of the edge is immaterial it is all about base edge bevel.

post #55 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basement Ski Tech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

 Ok, this is even older....

 

SKIING / CHRIS DUFRESNE : Before Too Long, Picabo Street May Be a Household Name

February 26, 1993 |CHRIS DUFRESNE  LA Times http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-26/sports/sp-500_1_picabo-street
 
Quote:

It is not uncommon for Street to shout four-letter words at the end of a run with which she is not pleased.

And after a poor showing in slalom here last week, she screamed at the top of her lungs: "My edges are too sharp!"

Translation: It's the ski tech's fault.

Major [Paul Major, women's coach]  covered his ears and winced  -1993

 

I don't think this story is about Picabo, although she cannot be ruled out.  The story goes that after a World Cup race a rather pissy female racer snapped at her ski tech, "what the hell did you put on my skis that made them so slow".  His rely:  "you".

 

Funny.

Uh....how many times can her name be mentioned in the story and you think it's about someone else?

 

Atomic may be right, but I think they can be too sharp.

Atomicman, you're saying add more base bevel if they're "too sharp"?
 

 

post #56 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

If the base edge bevel is consistent and the edge is smooth and burr free, striations minimized (polished), the edge cannot be too sharp.

 

All these cute anecdotes were on straight skis back in  the day and straight Downhills at that.

 

sharpness of the edge is immaterial it is all about base edge bevel.



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Funny.

Uh....how many times can her name be mentioned in the story and you think it's about someone else?

 

Atomic may be right, but I think they can be too sharp.

Atomicman, you're saying add more base bevel if they're "too sharp"?
 

 



I'm going to agree with A-Man here.  You can make a ski more forgiving by increasing the base bevel instead of detuning the point of the edge.  No matter how sharp you make a ski, a clean edge with no imperfections can't be blamed for skier misfortune for regular skiing.  Another factor is strength and conditioning.  If the ski is so sharp that it is throwing you around instead of the opposite maybe that is a clue to work on your quads.  Or, you can just ski them a little less aggressively, reducing your edge angle, feathering, or whatever.  I do think that detuning skis for never evers is a good way to help make learning to ski easier on the first day or two.  Rentals FTW!

 

Another shout out to BPA

 

Quote:
It's not that you can't ski sharp edges, it is that you can't ski and your sharp edges prove it

 

post #57 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post



 



I'm going to agree with A-Man here.  You can make a ski more forgiving by increasing the base bevel instead of detuning the point of the edge.  No matter how sharp you make a ski, a clean edge with no imperfections can't be blamed for skier misfortune for regular skiing.  Another factor is strength and conditioning.  If the ski is so sharp that it is throwing you around instead of the opposite maybe that is a clue to work on your quads.  Or, you can just ski them a little less aggressively, reducing your edge angle, feathering, or whatever.  I do think that detuning skis for never evers is a good way to help make learning to ski easier on the first day or two.  Rentals FTW!

 

Another shout out to BPA

 

 




anyone who is saying a ski can not be to sharp has never skied in mixed snow off trail.

 

I run a more acute edge than most people and do not de tune, but I also run a huge amount of base bevel.

post #58 of 84

Nobody said the angle could not be too acute. 

post #59 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushwackerinPA View Post



anyone who is saying a ski can not be to sharp has never skied in mixed snow off trail.

 

 


oreally.jpg

 

 

I beg to differ.  Maybe you can't, perhaps we've found a soft spot in your arsenal?  I can ski a lazer 0/0 or 1/3 just about anywhere.  If they bite too much I just change the edge angles to compensate while skiing them anyway.


Edited by crgildart - 1/15/12 at 4:30pm
post #60 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post


oreally.jpg

 

 

I beg to differ.  Maybe you can't, perhaps we've found a soft spot in your arsenal?  I can ski a lazer 0/0 or 1/3 just about anywhere.  If they bite too much I just change the edge angles to compensate while skiing them anyway.



 

 

I can ski a 120+ fat EVERWHERE as well does not mean its logical or a good choice

 

I am sure I could ski a SL ski set at 1/3 everywhere as well, but would it be better than my "the one" set at 2/4 I think not.

 

I would rather be able to use high edge angles everywhere so I use the bending of the ski to make turns. I have found that overly sharp skis off trail means I have to tone back my skiing quite bit.  I am looking for every angle for maxium performance for what I am doing and how I am doing it. Until I started getting winded chasing people down mized conditions off piste runs(including trees) on 0 base bevel SL ski then I might change my stubborn but well informed mind.

 

beside I would love to see you seeing bumps on your 0/0 skis.

 

 

 

 

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