EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › How can bump skiing improve skills on groomers?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

How can bump skiing improve skills on groomers?

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 
This season, I'm definitely looking to continue a focus on skiing bumps better -- hoping to ski as well in crusty thin Christmas conditions as when spring skiing on lots of snow!

BUT, aside from laps on the easy black bump runs, I'm wondering if this will translate to improvements in other conditions. Here are a few questions:

1. Is that floaty light feeling at transition on a GOOD bump turn something to capture on turns on groomers? Is it similar on short turns, but not longer ones?

2. On longer radius or slower turns, is the pole plant the beginning of one turn, or the end of a turn? It's been really hard to coordinate a pole plant while lengthening the transition part of turns. In an effort at progressive turns, I've been trying to stretch out all parts of the turn -- kind of like a slow-motion short turn (yes, this is like Dory talking whale in "Finding Nemo"). But I have no sense of what movement or feeling the pole touch should trigger on a slooow motion turn, where there doesn't seem to be any definite end of one and beginning of a new turn.

3. The way extension ended up working in bumps was to try to reach my feet toward the bumps to the side of the one I'm actually turning around -- on better turns, this seemed to come very early after changing edges, and my feet felt like they just slipped around. No big thump at the top of the next bump. Will reaching early work on groomed terrain, or is it unique to bumps?

Thanks for your help!!!

DEP
post #2 of 10
Dep,

Alotta questions in one post.

First off, skiing bumps will challenge your balance. Challenging your balance will improve your balance. Improved balance will help all of your skiing.

1) Terrain unweighting (ie: bumps) or rebound unweighting (ie: dynamic short turns) can be helpful to a point but as you begin to exceed what is useful it can become counterproductive and disrupt your balance unless controlled and redirected effectively.

2)The pole plant has multiple uses and timing depending on the intent. In your drawn out turns or slower turns where balance during edge change may be key the pole plant can coincide with this edge change to add stability (polygon of sustenation, Joubert) as you tip into the new turn. Using the pole touch in this manner allows you another point of contact with earth which you can use to gain or retard rotary momentum or slightly correct your torso's trajectory to better balance.

3)"Will reaching early work on groomed terrain"? You bettcha! Great feeling to try to ingrain! I am a big fan of thinking about beginning the edge change before extension rather than extending to change edges.

Hope this helps...
post #3 of 10
1) Yes, its something to strive for. On short SL type retraction turns it comes naturally while on longer turns you kind of need a little more extention in your legs through the transition to boost that float.

2) The pole plant was traditionally thaught in the past to mark the beginning of a new turn. Today its no different even if you can ski without pole plant alltogether. Sync your pole plant to weight transre/edge switch. I like to think of it as an indication that Im going to turn. I dont reach with my pole long ahead of turning. Im not pointing it forward. Im not only working out of my wrist. And Im not slowing down my pole plant movements when turn radius increace. The pole plant should be quick and determined. Try to isolate the pole plant movements from other movements. Best way to do it is to drop pole plant for a while and then bring it back with proper movements. One good que is to place the bascet down hill. If you are skiing in a traverse the poleplant should be to your side. If you ski close to the fall line the poleplant should be more forwards. Also, the faster you go the more forward can you place your plant. If you go really fast its ok not to plant your pole at all.

3) I do not really follow you here but what Bud said, edge change can happen before full extention. In retraction turns this is the way its done.
post #4 of 10
Kinda ot but reminded me of when I teled. Would get so tired that I relied on the unweighting between turns to switch knees.
post #5 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP View Post
1. Is that floaty light feeling at transition on a GOOD bump turn something to capture on turns on groomers? Is it similar on short turns, but not longer ones?
The floaty light feeling at transition is a result of a movement that is a marker of an efficient turn. That movement works for short and long turns, but it is more noticeable in short terms. There is a concept called the virtual bump as an element of groomed slope turns. The idea is to make movements similar to bump skiing that .... ta da ... cause that floaty light feeling. The more common "instruction" is to "fall" or "dive" into the next turn. The center of mass is traveling downhill while the skis are traveling across the hill will cause this feeling. Once you can get your brain to stop screaming "What the HELL are you doing?", this feeling is quite enjoyable. The resulting increase of control one gets from hooking the new edges up early above the fall line to round out the tops of their turns is critical to get the brain to stop its natural resistance to falling. But this is a chicken versus egg problem that has bedeviled skiers through the ages. Bumps are one way for skiers to break through this catch 22 problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP View Post
2. On longer radius or slower turns, is the pole plant the beginning of one turn, or the end of a turn? It's been really hard to coordinate a pole plant while lengthening the transition part of turns. In an effort at progressive turns, I've been trying to stretch out all parts of the turn -- kind of like a slow-motion short turn (yes, this is like Dory talking whale in "Finding Nemo"). But I have no sense of what movement or feeling the pole touch should trigger on a slooow motion turn, where there doesn't seem to be any definite end of one and beginning of a new turn.
First, a distinction needs to be made between a pole plant and a pole touch. A pole plant (heavy contact with the snow) often aids turns by blocking the path of travel of the body and thus providing a pivot point around which to turn. A pole touch (light contact with the snow) serves as more of a timing cue. But both provide a third point of contact with the snow to aid stability during the edge change. Whether the edge change is the end of one turn or the beginning of the next is a glass half full issue. The sensation of a pole touch in a long turn is so slight and so brief that the feedback does little to help your turns. It's the smooth movement of the pole through the entire swing and touch movements that most helps to cue the other body movements for an efficient turn. So in longer turns it helps more to focus on the swinging of the basket forward to "stretch" the finish of the last turn into the initiation of the next than on the actual pole touch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP View Post
3. The way extension ended up working in bumps was to try to reach my feet toward the bumps to the side of the one I'm actually turning around -- on better turns, this seemed to come very early after changing edges, and my feet felt like they just slipped around. No big thump at the top of the next bump. Will reaching early work on groomed terrain, or is it unique to bumps?
That is one way of many to ski bumps. You'll find that you can use very similar movements most effectively on groomed slopes by seeking out "mini ridges" for making your edge changes. Most groomed slopes are not groomed perfectly flat. You can often find lateral high spots where you can "reach your feet" to the other side to facilitate your turn transitions. Once you've trained your eye to find the high spots, it will feel like you're cheating.
post #6 of 10
Very interesting thread topic. I've only really gotten into bump skiing in the past two or three seasons (i.e., to the point where I seek out bump runs), but I've been pleasantly surprised to find that skiing bumps and skiing groomers doesn't necessarily have to be any different. i.e., the better I've gotten at bumps, the easier groomers have become, and vice versa.
post #7 of 10
DEP,

Quote:
How can bump skiing improve skills on groomers?


Without getting too technical, bump skiing requires a large range of motion (extension and absorption), low edge skills (pivoting/slipping) and more active balancing movements. All of these skills are developed in a different way than what is used in only skiing groomers

So, in my opinion bump skiing allows more skill development to be utilized while skiing groomers as long as the technique is appropriate for the terrain and snow conditions.

RW
post #8 of 10
The biggest problem to overcome for so many people is a lack of any movement -- the "block on skis" style of skiing.

Do some work in the bumps and you simply have to move. Without worrying if you get to any kind of performance level in the bumps, just reinforce basic movements and you'll be way ahead when you go back to groomed runs. Get hips, knees & ankles moving, work your arms with pole plants, and there will be a whole new level of fluidness to your skiing.

Once you're comfortable and with some movement, you can then refine and adapt the movements for whatever conditions you're in.
post #9 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron White View Post
DEP,



Without getting too technical, bump skiing requires a large range of motion (extension and absorption), low edge skills (pivoting/slipping) and more active balancing movements. All of these skills are developed in a different way than what is used in only skiing groomers

So, in my opinion bump skiing allows more skill development to be utilized while skiing groomers as long as the technique is appropriate for the terrain and snow conditions.

RW
A&E and range of motion is a big component, for sure.

RE: pivoting, etc: depends on the style of bump skiing. For example, if you are skiing as we teach in the technique guide at mogulskiing.net, there is very little pivoting/slipping, and lots of very efficient edging and "mogul carving" (not alpine carving, mogul carving... big difference).

It can be summed up like this: there is some component of nearly every kind of alpine turned all stuffed into the mogul turn. If you can execute a near-perfect mogul turn, you can ski just about anything you'll find at a ski area. Plain and simple.
post #10 of 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEP View Post
I'm wondering if this will translate to improvements in other conditions.

3. The way extension ended up working in bumps

DEP
Problems that kill a bump skier are:
--rotating toward the hill
--leaning toward the hill
--getting their weight back on their heels

Correcting these in bumps, if you have any degree of these problems, will improve all your skiing.

Try skiing bumps with absorption/retraction instead of extension. I don't picture what you describe, but try for a very still, stable upper body and absorb the bump by retracting your feet as you cross the crest, then extending down the face of the bump. These absorption/retraction turns work equally well on the groomers (better IMO), and are the only way to ski if you need to turn over an obstacle by lightening your feet to avoid hitting the obstacle hard.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › How can bump skiing improve skills on groomers?