EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Off-Season Sports & The Lighter Side › Golf › Stack and Tilt Golf Swing
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

post #1 of 33
9/29/08 at 7:58am
Thread Starter 
If you watch the Golf Channel, you've probably seen the ads for the Sack and Tilt golf swing. Below is a link to an Golf Digest 11 page slide show demonstrating the swing.

http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...artSlideSh ow

A miminalist overview is that it changes the traditional backswing theory by keeping your weight on your left side (for right handed players), tilting your spine toward the target and sliding your hips toward the target to start the downswing. This is a big change from traditional thinking and would make most golf instructors "loose their lunch". A proposed benefit is it facilitates hitting the ball on the downswing with diviots on the target side like all great golf ball strikers do.

For the past few weeks, I've toyed with the concept during practice, both at the range and on the course. My sense if that if you want to give it a fair trial, one needs to stay with it full time as you need to commit to your swing. It's very difficult to give up years of traditional thinking, but, that thinking has made me a lifetime 12 to 16 handicap with thin, off-line shots as my weakness. PS, I do work with a pro several times a year.

Anybody stayed with this concept or have any thoughts?
Reply
post #2 of 33
9/30/08 at 7:11am
is the the PMTS of Golf?
Reply
post #3 of 33
9/30/08 at 7:53am
It does seem to make some sense. I tried it on the practice range and thought I was hitting the ball flush but when I tried to take it to the course I wasn't successful.
Full disclosure - I own more golf books and golf instruction books than the library. I've tried swing the handle, swing in a barrell, square to square, Hogan, one lever, two lever, Pelz, etc. You name it I've tried it and I've enjoyed the journey but I know I play my best when I just go out and hit the ball.
I'm a 9 handicap if I don't think about it and an 18 when I really work at it!
Reply
post #4 of 33
9/30/08 at 9:54am
If you were to try the Stack & Tilt I think you would have to really commit to it and be willing to take some major steps backwards before you get better.
Are you willing to do that? Unless your current swing is an absolute disaster why not put in a little more work with the Pro to refine the swing you have instead of reinventing one. Often times it's a minor adjustment that can make all the difference.

Golf is a lot like skiing in that the more you have to think the worse you will usually perform.
Reply
post #5 of 33
9/30/08 at 3:43pm
I have a friend who really worked at it for a while. He's pretty good (h'cap < 1). His comment was it made his short to middle iron game fantastic but he had a lot of trouble with longer clubs. Makes sense to me as it is a pretty upright swing.
Reply
post #6 of 33
9/30/08 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveturner View Post
It does seem to make some sense. I tried it on the practice range and thought I was hitting the ball flush but when I tried to take it to the course I wasn't successful.
Full disclosure - I own more golf books and golf instruction books than the library. I've tried swing the handle, swing in a barrell, square to square, Hogan, one lever, two lever, Pelz, etc. You name it I've tried it and I've enjoyed the journey but I know I play my best when I just go out and hit the ball.
I'm a 9 handicap if I don't think about it and an 18 when I really work at it!
Steve i read your post and I had to post a reply. I am probaly the epitomy of the golf channel watching, trying every gimick taking lessons fool. When i quit thinking about it and relaxed when i swung it was much better. You are soooo right with your comment above.

Sorry to barge in but I am very familiar with what you were talking about.
Reply
post #7 of 33
10/1/08 at 6:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
is the the PMTS of Golf?
Finndog,
Fear always Gear Ho's who jump in to technique discussions!

Sometimes, just sometimes, in these days of political and financial upheaval, we all should remember that we're talkin bout how we turn our skis or swing a golf club. In the big picture, that's soooooo important (not)!
Reply
post #8 of 33
10/1/08 at 6:12am
I've fooled around and tinkered so much with my golf swing trying this trying that that there are periods I go through when I'm lucky I put the club face on the ball. For some reason, I'm not inclinced to try Stack and Tilt. Been looking at that Brian Manzella stuff and Lynn Blake websites on the net. Both guys are students of the Golfing Machine( Homer Kelly). My inclination is to flip. I get away with it with the driver and it may even generate some extra distance , but with the irons it results in very inconsistent ball striking. One of the main tenents of TGM is a firm left wrist bent right wrist at impact. Impossible if you're a flipper. So in golf , hope springs eternal and maybe I can eliminate the flip one of these days .

Having said that there is no doubt IMHO of keeping it simple and just hitting the ball and refining what you've got a bit. Skiing by contrast has always been enjoyable to me because on the hill I don't get immersed in mechanics . When I golf , I'm just the opposite and just never seem able to relax and just swing the club.
Reply
post #9 of 33
10/1/08 at 6:48am
Roundturns you are right I have actually laid off Golf for awhile because I started it for an out and to relax. There is nothing relaxing about it when I am on the golf course unless I have had a 6 pack but I have laid off that too now.
Reply
post #10 of 33
10/1/08 at 7:14am
Thread Starter 
First, thanks all for the feedback.
Golf instruction has to be a billion dollar a year industry with a countless number of options. I'm in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) school of golf and when on the course I work at swinging by feel which is not easy for the analytic idiot who lives between my ears.
This year, my inablility to hit "fairways in regulation" has destroyed my confidence. My misses are big and both left and right. I play in a 9 hole leage each week. Last year I won my flight , this year I'm last. My pro and I are working to power my game by releasing my right side and turning throuh the swing.

Back to Stack and Tilt. Their advertising is compelling in that pros of the playing stature of Mike Weir and Arron Baddley choose to make the transition.

Based on very preliminary experience, the swing is both shorter in length, with much less weight transfer back and forth. The marks left on the face of the club indicate I'm getting a higher percentage of hits near center. My balance is much more stable. Overall ball flight is higher and straighter with irons. With the driver, I'm blocking, but that's my most common error anyway.

To-date, I've concentrated on the backswing movements. The downswing movement of straightening the left leg and straightening the back to power the release of the hips remains to be tested. I'll update in the future.

Thank God that skiing is much simpler!
Reply
post #11 of 33
10/1/08 at 7:18am
GW Skier, Welcome to your new obsession! EpicSki!
We Ski, We Golf, We Bike, and we socialize!
Reply
post #12 of 33
10/1/08 at 7:24am
I don't know if I am alone but I can go to the course and somedays I can feel a golf swing out of this world hit every fairway and green until the 7 th hole then I lose it get it back around the 13 or 14th well it is too late then put my typical 86 or 85 on the card and call it a day. Then I try to practice to get better, doesn't work either. so like I said earlier I just started closing my eyes and swinging the club hoping the ball was gone afterwards.

As for the Stack and tilt When I was playing my best golf is when I was doing just that but i have lost it and can't get it back.

I guess that is why they say you cant beat you just have to paly it!!!!
Reply
post #13 of 33
10/1/08 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
GW Skier, Welcome to your new obsession! EpicSki!
We Ski, We Golf, We Bike, and we socialize!
Yea I know this is getting addicting
Reply
post #14 of 33
10/6/08 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post
Finndog,
Fear always Gear Ho's who jump in to technique discussions!

Sometimes, just sometimes, in these days of political and financial upheaval, we all should remember that we're talkin bout how we turn our skis or swing a golf club. In the big picture, that's soooooo important (not)!
I actually fear most who engage in technique forums......
Reply
post #15 of 33
10/7/08 at 6:54am
Thread Starter 
The journey continues......

Last week, I worked on Tilt and Stack for two nights at the range, and, then took it to the course. The plan was to used it 100%, but, in the middle of the back nine, I reverted to my traditional swing. Committing to a swing a that you don't fully understand and/or own just does not make sense, so, I'll deal with the devil I know.

Over the past few years, the pro I work with has a philosophy of working to obtain better ball flight and making minor adjustments to the students swing. His experience is that people are unwilling or incapable of making major swing changes, they just want to hit the ball better.

I decided to get a "second opinion" and took a lesson from a pro who's approach is to I.D. what's going wrong in your swing and then change swing technique. The fix will take longer, you will suffer some setbacks, but, in the long term, you will be better. I probably hit 25 balls before he offered his thoughts on issues and improvements. I believe his analysis is right on and will spend the balance of the fall season working through the three things he identified.

The interesting aspect is that both pros identify the same problem issues, they just deal with them differently. If there is a difference, the second pro technique discussions permit me to go to other instruction material and determine how the major swing coaches deal with a specific issue.

So the journey continues, but, hey that golf!
Reply
post #16 of 33
10/8/08 at 2:10pm
Its a journey all right and you were smart to get a road map. Good Luck.
Reply
post #17 of 33
10/9/08 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Living Proof View Post
The plan was to used it 100%, but, in the middle of the back nine, I reverted to my traditional swing.
Does this mean we can call the system "Crack and Wilt"?
Reply
post #18 of 33
10/10/08 at 12:16pm
I'd say, find a swing that's comfortable to you and fits your body type, flexibility, age, beer consumption and so forth.

The mechanics of that swing looks as if it requires great flexibility
and could be hard on the back. Which could be no problem
for someone in great shape. I however, have a taylor-made swing
just for me and it's designed specifically not to aggravate any
of my many previous injuries and current aches and pains.
I call my swing system......

Grunt & Whack!
Reply
post #19 of 33
10/22/08 at 7:37am

Stack 'n Tilt

LP,

Just some background before i put my $.02 in. I am currently a PGA Teaching Professional and own and operate two Golf Improvement centers. I have been a full-time teaching pro for the past 10 years and have taught over 15K lessons in that time. I study PGA/LPGA/Sr.PGA Tour video a lot.

While I'm not a big believer in the S'nT movement as the end all for golf swings, I think it has some value, but only to a very small portion of the golf population. And as an aside, whether I like a new theory or not, there's usually something I can 'steal' from it to use w/ my clients.

The two pro's you mentioned who are S'nT followers, Adam Scott and Mike Weir, really don't do what the article/pictures show (from Golf Digest article) as far as the S'nT movements go. When you compare a photo from the GD article to current video of their swings they show two different movements. The pictures and description demonstrate a reverse pivot. Neither of these players reverse pivot in actual swings, instead the opposite happens - they both wind up over their back leg. Which, when you think about a wind up from other sports - baseball, tennis, etc.), is the natural (read most effective/widely used) way (over the back leg) an athlete winds up to hit or throw a ball.

I don't know this to be true, but my thought is that the two players mentioned earlier use the S'nT move as an idea or feel rather than a goal for actual swing movements. Using the S'nT can help folks avoid moving too far off the ball during the back swing (in watching a lot of older Weir video I see a tendency to move pretty far off the ball - no sway though - which isn't present as much at least w/ iron shots in more recent video). I know this from personal experience. It's really easy for me to wind up over my back leg too much (head ends up outside the boundaries of my feet) which means I have to make up for moving the ‘bottoming out’ point of my swing behind the ball a few inches. Not what you want if you're looking for the most consistent, powerful shots you can hit. By using the S'nT idea as a feel rather than the goal for movement, I can wind up over my back leg w/o getting too far behind the ball (definitely not reverse pivoting though). So as much as I hate to say it, the S'nT as an idea/feel is great for my swing, but I'm in a very small minority of swing problems that are out there.

Most of the clients that walk in the door already have a reverse pivot coupled with a tilt to flip type hitting motion to some degree or another, and as a result have poor consistency and don’t experience any quality ball striking. I think those folks if trying to apply the S’nT will definitely hit it worse. So in those terms, if the whole golfing universe adopts the S'nT it will keep me in business for a long time w/ plenty of unhappy golfers to help.

On another note, I strive to teach fact-based instruction and am happy to answer any questions you or any of the forum folks have concerning tips, swing thoughts/moves, etc. if I have the experience. I'm here to help.

Cheers,

Jb
Reply
post #20 of 33
10/22/08 at 3:23pm
Adam Scott and Mike Weir are paid to promote the S & T and like others that are paid to promote the Medicus, Heavy Driver etc etc etc etc and on and on I wonder how many ACTUALLY use those things on a consistent basis to help their golf game?
Reply
post #21 of 33
10/23/08 at 6:49am
Thread Starter 
[quote=Jibster;978104]LP,

Most of the clients that walk in the door already have a reverse pivot coupled with a tilt to flip type hitting motion to some degree or another, and as a result have poor consistency and don’t experience any quality ball striking. I think those folks if trying to apply the S’nT will definitely hit it worse. So in those terms, if the whole golfing universe adopts the S'nT it will keep me in business for a long time w/ plenty of unhappy golfers to help.

On another note, I strive to teach fact-based instruction and am happy to answer any questions you or any of the forum folks have concerning tips, swing thoughts/moves, etc. if I have the experience. I'm here to help.

Great news, a golf pro at Epic! As golf instruction is a mannerly profession, I promise, always, to treat discussions with full respect!

Thanks for your analysis of SnT and it's impact on the swings of Weir and Baddely. Golf instructors have long recognized that "feel" and "real" are not always in synch and video sure confirms those thoughts. I remember the Golf Channel's Jim McLean doing a video review of Ben Hogan's swing and pointing out that Hogan did not achieve positions that he advocated in his 5 Lessons book. Your thinking that aspects of SnT can be beneficial on a very selected basis as warranted by the swing issues is right-on IMHO. The pro at my club ( who I do not take lessons from ) always states that he is delighted by new swing techniques as members try them, get screwed up and come to him to get straightend out. But then, he also loves Winn grips because they wear out and need replacement at a premium price. Follow the money trail!

Jim McLean uses the term "death move" to describe a swing movement that is so detrimental that it's almost impossible to recover from and hit a good shot. The pro I worked with found two "death moves" I was making and self-taught SnT would not have fixed either. Over the past few weeks, I've been reworking my swing using my notes from that lesson and sections from a McLean book that call out my specific issues. The results have been very encouraging, but, there's no magic cure for a few years of inattention to my swing. I'm a lifelong hands flipper trying to develop a dead hands swing. Thankfully, fast twitch hand muscles play no part in ski technique.

A final thought about a comment that Weir and Baddely are paid pros doing SnT for the money. The following may be most niave words I've ever written, but, I don't think the highest level pro's modify or endorse their swings just for the money. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to clubs, balls, training aides, rangefinders... whatever, they are very willing to take the commercial endorsements. Some look like walking billboards. But give your swing to someone for money -- No way. I sure hope that Weir and Baddely, et al, went to the SnT pros with the full intent of making themselves more competitive.

Again, thanks for the comments
Mike
Reply
post #22 of 33
10/23/08 at 7:20am
Hi Jibster,

Just wondering if you are familiar with Greg Mchatten(sp?) and his approach to golf. I've been working with a video package of his and have had great results. He expressed in the clearest way I've seen the proper way to hit a ball while maintaining your lag as long as possible. His description of and drills for hitting down on the ball are very unique and they literally changed my swing for the better(much!!), without the standard hair tearing out most of us associate with swing changes. It actually changed my whole concept of the swing and took the 10,000 sequential swing/mechanics thoughts right out of the picture. Thanks for the input.

joel
Reply
post #23 of 33
10/25/08 at 6:47am

Mclean

The book you've referenced from Jim McLean is great. Even though it has a ton of detail which can be overwhelming to some students, it is one of the most simple descriptions of effective movement characteristics out there. I also like the 'death moves' commentary as he describes the 'why' behind don't do it this way instead of just saying something is 'wrong' w/ a particular swing move.

I could only find one video of Gregg McHatten and couldn't play it in slow mo to watch his moves, though with some fiddling around, was able to stop it at different points of his swing. I think he demonstrates moves that we teach at our improvement centers with the exception of slightly exaggerated arms/hands through impact. I liked the tempo and sequence of his swing. I don't encourage students to actually exaggerate their arms/hands quite as much as he's showing, but as a drill i find that exaggeration vital to changing enough to show improvement and a different ball flight.

Personally i think that if one could show the moves he's making it would make for a more effective swing. i'm not sure how many people have the physical abilities to replicate those moves. It's pretty challenging to get folks to exaggerate that much for a drill in slow motion let alone at full speed attempting to hit a ball.

I'd like to check out a seminar where he's a presenter though, I think it would be interesting to hear how he describes the movements and what drills/training aids he uses. Care to share the video stuff you've got on him?

Cheers,

Jb
Reply
post #24 of 33
10/29/08 at 1:56pm
Hi jibster,
The only videos I have of his are from www.biggerdrives.com. I bought a 3 dvd set for $69 and am firmly convinced its one of the best values I've gotten.
The first vid takes you through the drills that promote his concept of dragging the club or using as he puts it occasionally, longitudinal pull. His expanations are clear, concise and if you can toss out some of your (i'm talking about me here) golf concepts and feels that you "just know are right" and actually LET yourself work on these unusual drills, a big light could go off as it did with me. I never really understood the correct FEELING of lag and how to maintain it to the very last instant so there is minimal loss of power or acceleration in the swing. Even though I knew what casting was and understood the physics of it and how it kills a golf swing, I thought I had a handle on it until I tried some of the drills. Lo and behold...there it was in all its glory, so immediately obvious I wanted to scream. That lightbulb going off and the almost immediate improvments that followed made the $69 a laughably good investment.
The second dvd is him giving a private lesson to a middle aged woman and that helps cement what the drills are supposed to do and allow you to see what an actual mediocre amateur golfer might encounter while working their way through this material.
The third dvd(cd) is a radio interview that covers many of the same things but he expresses the ideas in different terms. I found that beneficial as it gave me more insight into his concepts by hearing them put another way.
I'm enthused because it is the only instruction that has really hit home with me and made large improvements in many areas of my game that I've had trouble with for years because it deals with underlying principles that are accessable to anyone, as opposed to "fixing" 90 different things with the hope that somehow it will translate into a "great swing like the pros have". Enough blathering on my part. If you can't find it at bigger drives, I might consider loaning it out for a short period for you to peruse if you are interested. PM me. I'm sorry its taken me so long to respond-work and flu ya know.

Joel
Reply
post #25 of 33
9/19/10 at 4:03am

Due to the rapid turning of the hips in this steeper swing plane, one of my friends have experienced issues with lower back pain.

Proper stretching prior to play can help to overcome this problem, but if this swing causes chronic pain, you better consult a doctor before the pain becomes severe.

 

 

 

Stack and Tilt

Reply
post #26 of 33
10/4/10 at 10:52am

I attended a speech where the golf fitness guy (Greg Rose? - now with Titleist Performance Institute) did a demo of a golf swing with the hip turn occurring at the hips vs at the waist. That slight difference can cause a huge amount of pain/damage. Just standing here at home I can feel how much easier it is do it wrong with a taller stance. I wish I could do the demo as well as Greg does it, but I'm glad I can't because I can feel the bad version grinding my discs. It's definitely an OMG feeling.

Reply
post #27 of 33
10/4/10 at 11:17am

A great golf swing is a blend of so many subtle unconscious movements, and golf is a game that is brutal on backs, hips, shoulders and hands. The Stack and Tilt, and various other gimmicky instructional methods, exaggerate specific moves in order to simplify for the general public. Any exaggeration of a single movement in any athletic endeavor is going to lead to stress related pain. The pro golfers who use various swing keys, thoughts, and methods do not use them in isolation but as part of a larger athletic movement. Unfortunately, most amateurs do not have unlimited access to instructors, practice ranges, fitness trailers, and physical therapists and instead are marketed a simplistic approach to something complicated. If it really was that simple, then golf would be easy. The best advice out there now I think is the distillation of Tom Watson's new instructional DVD based on his "discovery" back in the 90s. The message seems to be to get in an athletic, balanced address position, set your spine angle at address and swing the clubhead around it, and don't think about a whole lot else. Easier said than done, clearly, but it is pretty much true if you can figure out how to do it, and it works for every single shot and every club from driver through putter. The problem is figuring out how to do it and what address position will work for your body and your swing. It is how I tried to play this summer. Had some days in the low 80s, and some days in the low to mid 90s depending on how cluttered I let my head get. Have to say, though, on the days when it was good it was a lot more enjoyable than trying to figure out where my hands were two-thirds of the way into my downswing.

Reply
post #28 of 33
3/4/12 at 3:51am

Stack and tilt......... no no no,

to many movements added that dont need to be there,

ive built a simple modern golf swing with a well known coach(England elite coach and coach to many players on all the pro tours through the world),

nothing can be simpler than a solid right leg as a base to turn against never moving but internal hip rotation allowing the body to turn with the same spine angle. Then turning back on to the ball with the right side firing through,

it produces a powerful and straight ball flight. no stacking, tilting and turnung on to the ball, just turning on to the ball

 

Reply
post #29 of 33
3/4/12 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rossymcg View Post

Stack and tilt......... no no no,

to many movements added that dont need to be there,

ive built a simple modern golf swing with a well known coach(England elite coach and coach to many players on all the pro tours through the world),

nothing can be simpler than a solid right leg as a base to turn against never moving but internal hip rotation allowing the body to turn with the same spine angle. Then turning back on to the ball with the right side firing through,

it produces a powerful and straight ball flight. no stacking, tilting and turnung on to the ball, just turning on to the ball

 


Hey Rossy, this is not a challenge but a serious inquiry, do you have any videos of this. I can understand the intent and mechanics but visualization helps me best. I can read all the golf and ski instruction books I want, but pics and video is what gets me learning the quickest. Any help would be great.  Thanks,   Dave
 

 

Reply
post #30 of 33
3/4/12 at 5:56am


i dont personally have any video of myself but you can see from Mel in this video, Mel coach is also my coach, he uses video of her all the time when working with me and others, this swing is perfect,

next time on the practice ground i'll get some video just to show im not bulling about my swing


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=wNiS58invpIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=wNiS58invpI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveski7 View Post


Hey Rossy, this is not a challenge but a serious inquiry, do you have any videos of this. I can understand the intent and mechanics but visualization helps me best. I can read all the golf and ski instruction books I want, but pics and video is what gets me learning the quickest. Any help would be great.  Thanks,   Dave
 

 



 

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Golf
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Off-Season Sports & The Lighter Side › Golf › Stack and Tilt Golf Swing