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Different cants for SL, GS and Speed events??

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
What percentage of athletes are doing this?
What are the typical differences in cant angles between boots set up for different events? Also, what are the differences in boot setups in terms of stiffness, cuff height, ramp and cuff angles.
post #2 of 19
In my experience, cuff height and ramp remain the same.

In general, athletes run less canting for speed events. Example is using a +1 degree boot (Lange/Rossignol) for tech events and a 0 deg boot for speed.

Athletes will adjust their cuff for speed based on the amount of time in a tuck, i.e. gliding courses vs. more turning. You can see yourself that your lower leg angle will change subtly based on position - tucking vs. standing.

Now that slalom technique is basically like high speed GS (lots of hip) and the stivot has become more pronounced, I don't see a lot of guys running high positive cuff angles for 'leverage' like they used to.

Re. flex, SL -> DH = stiffer -> softer
post #3 of 19
Wow, awesome question and for me at least, i can't answer this, nor want to.

My findings are 100% as above.
post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
jdistefa

You lost me with the terminology a little. Which direction is a postive cuff angle? Outward?
post #5 of 19
JD will answer that for you. However I can add that when I watched boot setup for a Canadian national team member he automatically added a small cant on the inside for his tech boots.

But now we should ask why is this information important? For your own skiing or for kids you coach?
\
Lou
post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by NordtheBarbarian View Post
jdistefa

You lost me with the terminology a little. Which direction is a postive cuff angle? Outward?
Yup
post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 

The reason I asked was

The reason I asked about canting between Events was that I have seen only a few different boot setups for different events.
However, one of the best athletes I every coached, added 1/2 degree cants to his GS skis, which improved his GS results. His boots were canted (ground) correctly for SL but not quite right for GS.
I know there were different boot setups for Speed vs tech events. In the past the speed boots had shorter cuffs and softer but I hadn't heard of that being done recently. I have only dabbled in speed events so I don't really know anything about that part of racing.

So I have started to ask aroung a little.
What I am hearing is "positive" cuff angles for tech. Also I have seen the Fischer race boots where the heal and toe are molded oversize to allow for changes in the abduction angle (for their top athletes). The consumer gets these boots with the toe and heel ground to a standard abduction angle.
I have heard the HEAD is doing this also, but haven't seen the boots myself.
post #8 of 19
Let's see. I haven't seen any Head boots using changes in foot rotation, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Fischer boots that are externally rotated are available to the public as Somatec.

Externally rotated boots may help pick up the turn earlier, but I have had a local coach that just jumped in with both feet and got all his kids on Nordica Aggressors last season abandon that experiment this season. Externally rotated boots can cause knee misalignment and pain. Definitely not a solution for everyone.
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Rosenfeld View Post
Externally rotated boots can cause knee misalignment and pain. Definitely not a solution for everyone.

Lou
That's why the race stock Fischer boots lugs are molded oversize. So the abduction angle can be customized for the (sponsored) racer. This is done by milling the toe and heel lugs to the correct abduction angle. So the boot can end up with bigger or smaller abduction angles than the Retail Somatec boots.

It is a solution for everyone, but only available to very few.
post #10 of 19
do you happen to know their protocol for deciding the amount of abbduction to create? Is is solely based on knee tracking?
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by NordtheBarbarian View Post
Lou
That's why the race stock Fischer boots lugs are molded oversize. So the abduction angle can be customized for the (sponsored) racer. This is done by milling the toe and heel lugs to the correct abduction angle. So the boot can end up with bigger or smaller abduction angles than the Retail Somatec boots.

It is a solution for everyone, but only available to very few.

not saying it doesn't happen, but this seems a little OTT, to mill the lugs back to DIN in height is a job requiring specific tools and time....to do the rotation of the boot????? most companies offer an oversized lug on the "real" race boots but this is for purposes of planning an angle into the sole for cant rather than AB/AD duction

no doubt someone will know better
post #12 of 19
Yup more tech @#it! They are ground for ab/ad duction. Atomic used to have diferent milled lugs for ad/ab duction when they ahd those removabale toe and hell lugs.
post #13 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEM View Post
not saying it doesn't happen, but this seems a little OTT, to mill the lugs back to DIN in height is a job requiring specific tools and time....to do the rotation of the boot????? most companies offer an oversized lug on the "real" race boots but this is for purposes of planning an angle into the sole for cant rather than AB/AD duction

no doubt someone will know better
I saw a pair of fischer race boots and the sides of the toe and heel lugs were machined not molded. This is done at the factory. This would be an easy machining operation in a place that is set up for profiling ski cores and/or CNC machining ski and plate parts.

The "consumer" plug boot comes in one abduction/rotation angle that is machined at the factory. So you bootfitters don't have to worry about doing this yet.
post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 

8 pairs of boots

Outside magazine article on Lindsey Vonn states that she will be skiing on 8 pairs of boots this season. What are these? there are only 4 events??
Hard and soft snow version of boots for each of 4 events?
1 pair of boots for each of the 4 event and identical backup boots?
post #15 of 19
Nord..... they are not available to the skiing public so why worry about them
post #16 of 19
According to Lindseys boot technician from Rossignol, she will be skiing on 3 different set-ups. One for speed, one for gs, and one for slalom.

The number of boots referred to in the Outside article includes the total number of boots built for racing and back-up boots. She has 2 Sl boots, 2 GS boots, and 4 Speed boots.

She is also human, so she can only use one pair at a time just like you and me.

jim
post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 

I wish I knew the answer to this!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
do you happen to know their protocol for deciding the amount of abbduction to create? Is is solely based on knee tracking?
This is really the big question. How to measure/setup the proper alignment when you have variable abduction angles to play with as well as lateral canting.
From what I've heard the abduction angles seem to be based on experimentation and personal preference. Different angles for different athletes. Less angle for Slalom.

Isn't all high level racer alignment work done through experimentation? Center of knee measurement/alignment for ballpark angles then test (duct tape etc...) to determine final angles?
post #18 of 19
Nord,

I don't know that experimentation is the best term. There is good methodology involved and static alignment work in the shop can get pretty darn close leaving the fine tuning and personal preference for experimentation. Most skiers are not even close. I liken it to a church. First we have to get them into the right church, then the right pew, then the right seat. Through good methodology in shop and good understanding of the parameters involved, a skilled alignment specialist can get the skier in the right seat or at least the seat right next to it!
post #19 of 19
at higher levels it is all about the clock and time trials
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ask the Boot Guys › Different cants for SL, GS and Speed events??