EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Wide skis and ankle fatigue
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Wide skis and ankle fatigue

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
One thing I did notice last year was when I skied my wider skis mixed conditions where I would be edging I noticed ankle fatigue. Towards the end of the day, my ankles would feel tired from the pressure of the wider skis. My boots are very snug and a good fit. I get more stress in my ankles than my knees where others feel it.

Anyone else notice this?
post #2 of 19
How wide are we talking about here Phil?

Personally, I have never noticed this.
post #3 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
How wide are we talking about here Phil?

Personally, I have never noticed this.
100 or so.
post #4 of 19
I notice this when skiing fatter skis on groomers. It seems the edge of the ski has more leverage over the boot and can move things around a bit more. It is particualrly noticable when the snow is harder. I also had two bad ankles last season, so this might account for some of it.
post #5 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tromano View Post
I notice this when skiing fatter skis on groomers. It seems the edge of the ski has more leverage over the boot and can move things around a bit more. It is particualrly noticable when the snow is harder. I also had two bad ankles last season, so this might account for some of it.
I do have a couple of screws in one ankle from a snowboarding accident, 15 years ago.
post #6 of 19
Extra forces to get the wider boards up on edge. More effort more distance. Just makes sense. Another reason why I am going down in size for my groomer ski
post #7 of 19

leverage

I have never experienced it either, but have heard friends complain about it a little, but mostly in the knees.
post #8 of 19
Maybe it is partially your boot fit? There is definitely a growing bootfitting school of thought that some allowance for all-around ankle flex is a good thing. Including doing ankle pocket punches. My subjective sense is that this is a good thing with fatter skis - I know my kids who skied 122s exclusively last season like more freedom of movement than an older school bootfitter would give them.

I know a bunch of people using skis between 104 and 122 as their day to day skis - and have not been hearing ankle complaints... Some will be using 126s this year...

Also, I'm also not sure you can just talk about "wide" anymore. Differences in shape, camber and flex can make a big difference in how something "skis". We do ski in rather different places though...
post #9 of 19
V8 had a nice summary on this, on an alternate forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8
I've meant to put my closing thoughts on this topic sooner, but hadn't the time to get pictures scanned in etc. - but anyway - I have now!

I do acknowledge that there are more than one school of thought on this, for some, they will prefer to ensure that cuff (and therefore knee angulation) is doing the work, and that the ankle rolling is merely a mental trigger.

Most importantly - we should all agree that the foot must be allowed to work as a foot inside the boot, and not be encased inside a block of concrete.

This "ankle rolling" this is not new. Georges Joubert refers to it in his "Skiing - An Art A Technique" book, and talks about "pressure on the malleolus", and the "muscular effort required by the foor inside the boot" to ensure good hold on ice.

Warren Witherell in "The Athletic Skier" talks about the ankle joint in terms of efficiency - "If you need a few degress of edge, roll your ankle. If more edge is needed, knee angulation is quicker than hip angulation - but it's not as strong. When G forces are high, hip angulation or full body inclination is needed. Quiet upper-body movement allows the best control of the ski through lower body movement. At all times do as little work as possible to achieve a desired result."

In "How the Racers Ski" (Warren Witherell) - In describing what he see's the ski doing in the snow, he describes "Most pressure and edge changes should be instituted primarily by ankle and knee movement".

These books and authors aren't some half baked newfangled fly by night things, these are well respected titles and authors, and now for the third, Ron LeMaster.

The following is shamelessly ripped from Ron's "The Skier's Edge" - so those that already have a copy can sing-a-long at home!

Have you thought about how an ice skate holds? Skates are not nearly as stiff and powerful as ski boots. The ice in any rink is as hard as the worst boiler-plate a skier is ever likely to see, yet a casual skater can describe clean arcs on a rink, while good skiers often struggle to make good turns on snow that is not nearly as hard.

The difference lies in the relative locations of the ankle and weight bearing edge. The blade of an ice skate is directly underneath the entre of the skater's ankle, so when the skate is on edge, the force that the ice exerts on the blade passes directly through the centre of the skaters ankle.

Quote:
In contrast, the edges of a ski are offset from the centre os the skiers ankle.

Quote:
In the diagram above, the force S from the snow acts along a line that passes outside the skier's ankle. The distance L from that line to the skier's ankle creates a lever through which S exerts a torque T on the ankle. T seeks to twist the skier's ankle, flattening the ski on the snow, making it slip.

The longer L is, the greater T will be, which is why fat skis are harder to get on and maintain edge.

The key to holding then, is to make the the situation more like a skate - to get the ankle as close as possible to the line along which the force from the snow acts.

The closer the centre of the skier's ankle is to the line S, the smaller the torque on the ankle, the better the hold/grip of the ski on the snow. As well as explaining why a narrower ski under foot holds better, this also explains why skis hold better in soft snow. As the ski is driven further into the snow, the snow's reaction force moves closer to the centre line of the ski, making T smaller.

Quote:
So: In order to reduce L and T, we can do 3 things:

1. Ski narrower skis (so that it behaves more like a skate) (FIS Limits apply)
2. Use risers, lifters and plates to reduce L (and therefore T) (FIS limits apply)
3. Move, or roll the ankle to the inside of the turn, so that the centre of the ankle is closer to S

The following diagrams shows the effect of rolling the ankle into the turn, plus knee angulation, making the torque T smaller

Quote:
The following diagram shows the effect of adding lifters/risers/plates to achive moving the centre of the ankle closer to S
post #10 of 19
I up my cant a bit for fatter skis...seems to help
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
I do have a couple of screws in one ankle from a snowboarding accident, 15 years ago.
Perhaps you have a screw loose.
post #12 of 19
On the physical note, is it possible, that those with short(er) legs will have more fatigue in their joints, (hips, ankles, knees) when the stance is wider, due to wider skis?
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
On the physical note, is it possible, that those with short(er) legs will have more fatigue in their joints, (hips, ankles, knees) when the stance is wider, due to wider skis?
I don't know if this answers your question, but it is certainly possible that those with longer limbs can align their balance point over their base of support using smaller joint angles.

Whether or not this creates less fatigue

I find weems' thoughts on the Platforming thread, and michaelA's on Platform demolition curiously pertinent here. Edit: or RicB's

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
To answer the question do we tip down low or at the knee? The answer would be we tip down low, or load the foot in pronation, to engage the edge, and we edge our ski by inclination, our knee really doesn't tip sideways, but it can be taken out of alignment between our ankle and hip, but this is a weak position.

So how does this apply to ankle movement? I see the ankle movement issue as being one of balance and how much ankle movement we need to dynamicaly balance. As I see it, it should really be a question of how much ankle movement do we need and over what part of our ankles range of motion should the movement take place? It seems to me that taking all ankle motion out of the equaton does nothing but make balancing nothing more than leaveraging out boot as opposed to balancng on our feet.

Without some ankle movement, I loose the ability to adjust my stance to what's happening under my feet, and without some flexing in my boot cuff I loose the ability to absorb and increase my range of ankle motion to effect my stance in the moment.

I don't ski a soft boot and don't ski the stiffest boot either. What I do like about the new boots is the even progressive flex that does allow me to have more effective ankle motion, which gives me better ability to stay in a neutral stance throughout a greater range of motion in my knees and hips. Hope that makes sense.

I can't imagine a boot that doesn't allow effective range of motion in my ankle allowing me to stay dynamically balanced. Isn't the debate really on what is our effective range of ankle motion, is it the same for everyone, and how does this effect our stance? Later, RicB.
post #14 of 19
I've never noticed anything. I use my Sanouks more than any of my other skis and they've got a 110mm waist. Just got a pair of Praxis Powders (138mm waist), so I guess I'll see.
post #15 of 19
BTW, Phil, if you feel like training up those ankles I've a spare set of Powerslides here.
post #16 of 19
Comprex, does that lend toward the screw loose idea
post #17 of 19
I have noticed this when sking on Harder snow on a very steep slope. if you are doing hard side hill turns on very steep terrain wider skis do create more lateral tourqe on my ankles.

When sking the xhutes at Mt. Rose on my 188 Bro's with Freerides (STACK HIGHT) = even more tourqe.

I have stopped half way down a run and my ankles are JUST SCREAMING !!

Most times no issue but when you are putting repeated consistn lateral foces on on a ski, THE fatter the ski the more stress on the Ankles.
The more LIFT (Leverage) on the bindings the more stress on the ankles
post #18 of 19
So stacking four Derbyflex plates on a powder ski
(as LeMaster's diagram in V8's post seems to imply) isn't the answer??
post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by telerod15 View Post
So stacking four Derbyflex plates on a powder ski
(as LeMaster's diagram in V8's post seems to imply) isn't the answer??
I think that diagram implies an ability to roll the ankle inside the boot. A bit of chicken/egg there imho.

PS, notice that another way to look at newfydog's post is that an improper cuff-to-clog angle can block useful edging motion.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Wide skis and ankle fatigue