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How far forward you're willing to dive

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
"It all depends on how far forward you're willing to dive."
This a ski instructor told me last year.

When does it all depend ......
..... and when not?
post #2 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
"It all depends on how far forward you're willing to dive."
This a ski instructor told me last year.

When does it all depend ......
..... and when not?
Well as an east coaster I think driving is out of the question for you unless its an extended trip. For me 7 hours to colorado mountains. planning on hitting either Heavenly or Whistler which is 30? holy sh!t thats a long drive. But its whistler and thats when the quote applies.
post #3 of 26
Dive? Or drive?
post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrush View Post
Dive? Or drive?
Dive. Dive forward.
post #5 of 26
Whatever is necessary. In a steep you have to commit it all. On lessor slopes enough to keep you in balance
post #6 of 26
I don't really like the term "dive" for movement forward and into the turn. To me, "dive" connotes a movement led by the head. The movement forward and into the turn should be at the Center of Mass. It's a commitment that should result in the legs becoming perpendicular to the surface you're on as you prepare to engage the new edges. This, to me, equates to Garry's "whatever is necessary" except it's always a total commitment.
post #7 of 26
True Kneale commitment is very important to make all turns come about . The only time I feel like I am diving is when it is steep and you commit completely and allow the feet to come around .But the reality is it is not a dive but squaring yourself to the hill and allowing gravity to do it's job.

The level of commitment is much more crucial when the turns will have a definite negative side when they don't happen in the proper timing.

I like the term commitment because it embodies the theme that is constant in skiing and that is moving the mass in a direction of intended travel . If you don't commit to that turn ,tipping your mass , your lack of commitment will act against your intentions.
post #8 of 26
Certainly the skier who figures this key concept out is well on their way to expert skiing! Most of us can let it go much more than we think!
post #9 of 26
Agreeing with Kneale that the term "dive" is probably not the best but, here are some things to chew on:

Assuming we are talking arc to arc here...the further forward you go, the more tip pressure you generate, meaning the tighter the turn you can create.

However this creates a few issues, the most significant or perhaps relevant is, the further forward you go, the further back you need to come to end the turn. This takes core strength, time, and skill.

Hence there is always a trade off. Getting back is the trade off here....
post #10 of 26
It is more of a metaphor than a literal use of the word dive.
post #11 of 26
Kneale, it's said that a good instructor will use and have "a bag" of tricks with different examples of terms or exercises to reach a student.

It was in a PSIA clinic that I first heard the term ... and for that matter .... the example the clinician used was "being at the pool and diving sideways from the board" .... that my lightbulb was lit.

Prior to that, I had been ... "Skiing into the future" ... and all that, but the diving example sent it home. After that the steeper it got the more I "dove" and it was so much easier; I realized that I had not been fully practicing what I preached.

I not only like ... I love the term ...

VA ... "diving" is a state of mind you have to be in and it is pretty much the same motion.
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
"It all depends on how far forward you're willing to dive."
This a ski instructor told me last year.

When does it all depend ......
..... and when not?
Works well when navigating a race course. Not necessarily the ideal objective for making your way down a congested slope.

I experimented with “diving” during a race training event a number of years ago. The challenge was to see how hard we could drive ourselves toward 10 and 2. After a couple of half-hearted attempts, I finally decided I was prepared to go down hard if need be, but I was going to ILE across transition with every muscle fiber I could muster. Amazingly I could not throw myself on the ground – my skis always caught up. Edge angles got higher, speeds were greater, and there was that moment in time when you’re just hanging there in space. Pretty cool!
post #13 of 26
Bout 130ft with heliox...

Oh wait, wrong forum.
post #14 of 26
Deb Armstrong once said a good focus is to always try to keep yourself perpendicular (90 degrees) to the slope. If the pitch is steep, the feeling is diving out into space to keep your body in this relationship to the hill, but her concept makes the intent simple.
post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
Amazingly I could not throw myself on the ground – my skis always caught up. Edge angles got higher, speeds were greater, and there was that moment in time when you’re just hanging there in space. Pretty cool!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_m View Post
Deb Armstrong once said a good focus is to always try to keep yourself perpendicular (90 degrees) to the slope. If the pitch is steep, the feeling is diving out into space to keep your body in this relationship to the hill, but her concept makes the intent simple.

These posters are exactly right and it is very difficult for the new skier (or terminal intermediate) to accomplish the second when s/he has yet to realize the first. Most inexperienced skiers encountering a steep slope will have the overwhelming fear that they are simply going to fall right off the mountain if they commit their body to that perpendicular position. "Diving" into the turn can, I think, help one get through this phase and develop some confidence that the skis will be there for you and help hold you up.
post #16 of 26
Wasn't it Deb Armstrong who also said to .... show the folks uphill the bottom of your skis ...... ??
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by volantaddict View Post
It is more of a metaphor than a literal use of the word dive.
Yep,,, it's a transitional move across the skis that produces a feeling of "diving" down the mountain. I think it's a useful descriptor because it lets the student know it's not a wrong thing to feel, but rather the right feeling to seek.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
Whatever is necessary.
In reality terms, yes. In a teaching context, asking for more tends to get you about half of what you want.
post #19 of 26
I frequently see "divers" flexing sideways at the waist toward downhill. Not the move they really need. They're not making the COM commitment necessary for changing edges in a flowing manner that allows for smooth application of the new edges. That's my objection to the term. If it gets you moving into the turn properly, it's OK.
post #20 of 26
Kneale, tell em you want a swan dive, not a jack knife.
post #21 of 26
The area where I teach has a good sharp drop off out of the way on a green run. This is a short drop off with an easy flat runout.

I take students there to learn to strongly pull their feet back behind them as their toes are crossing the edge of the drop off. Find a safe place to practice and see how much this helps your students, and maybe yourself, maintain forward balance. As one said, "that takes commitment." Well, yes, but it soon becomes easy and is a very good intro into getting skiers able to adjust their forward balance for any slope or washboard by moving their feet back or forward. (Great question for students...when to you want to push your feet forward and get the weight on your heels?...When an uprising of snow is directly in front or you are entering an ungroomed patch, then promptly re-center.)

Whether one leads with the center of mass or trails with the feet is a matter of semantics to some, and a matter of importance to others. Because the feet are lighter, it is easier to pull them backward than it is to thrust the CoM forward.

One of the best coaches I've trained under says something like this----The front half and the back half of the ski have different jobs. The front half turns you and maintains control. The back half runs straight and fast with very little chance of control. Put your weight on the half of the ski that goes to work for you----Of course, there are details omitted from this description for brevity, so no nit picking please, but students get the idea.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronix View Post
Bout 130ft with heliox...

Oh wait, wrong forum.
Go deeper young man, go deeper!!
post #23 of 26
The concept of 'diving' into a turn works fine but the more we dive into turn-entry on steep terrain, the more force we'll have to deal with at turn-finish.

That feeling of weightlessness at turn entry indicates that we're not resisting Gravity. This in turn means that our body Mass is accelerating with the pull of Gravity and our body will accumulate quite a lot of momentum that will need to be managed later in the turn.

.ma
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by darent View Post
Go deeper young man, go deeper!!
He meant metres; 130 feet is ok with ordinary nitrogen oxygen according to Martini's rule.
post #25 of 26
Durr, meant Nitrox. Been 2 years since I've been underwater. After the ski season I'm back to diving.
post #26 of 26
Go to Utah on a Deeeeep Powder day and bring your tank. You can do both at the same time. Your Fins might be OK too if you normally ski switch.

.ma
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