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How he achieve theses turns? - Page 4

post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
A racing ski has a stiffer tail. A stiffer tail snaps back quicker and harder is all.
Lurker question:
I thought the square, flattened shape of the racing tail
means that it won't let go of the turn as easily
as a rounded, turned up tail, as in most recreational
skis. Isn't that also a difference? (I'm not speaking
from experience, just asking...)
post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Lurker question:
I thought the square, flattened shape of the racing tail
means that it won't let go of the turn as easily
as a rounded, turned up tail, as in most recreational
skis. Isn't that also a difference? (I'm not speaking
from experience, just asking...)
That is true too. Shape also plays a role, but we are talking about rebound energy and using it as a springboard. A stiff srpingboard has more force per mm of displacement. It kicks back harder and faster. The difference between a race-stock ski,a citizen racer and a high performance ski.
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
That is true too. Shape also plays a role, but we are talking about rebound energy and using it as a springboard. A stiff srpingboard has more force per mm of displacement. It kicks back harder and faster. The difference between a race-stock ski,a citizen racer and a high performance ski.
Still, a racing ski is stiffer not only in the tail part. Its stiffer in the tip area as well. Racing skis do not always have square tails.
post #94 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Still, a racing ski is stiffer not only in the tail part. Its stiffer in the tip area as well. Racing skis do not always have square tails.
what good does it do by making it stiffer in the tip area?
post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
what good does it do by making it stiffer in the tip area?
Like a stiffer spring it takes more force to bend it. You will get the correct bend for the same corner but at higher speed with more force exerted, as required for the acceleration needed to go around that bend at the higher speed.
post #96 of 114
(completely unrelated to this thread)

That is Snowworld Landgraaf, I've been going there every other weekend for a couple of months. Too bad I've missed the legit skiers, apparently, because although there are a lot of racers there, most are not nearly of that caliber. Cool stuff! I guess I'll hold out hope of bumping into Ligety!
post #97 of 114
I havent read the whole thread. Maybe somebody mentioned it already. What jumps out at me is that he seems to ski from inside ski to inside sk. He defenitely pushes off the inside leg at he end of the turn and he initiates the next turn on the opposite ski which is his new insided ski. I see lots of WC guys do this but I have not been able to fully analyse it
post #98 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
What jumps out at me is that he seems to ski from inside ski to inside sk. He defenitely pushes off the inside leg at he end of the turn and he initiates the next turn on the opposite ski which is his new insided ski.
Your first observation is being discussed in the other thread:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=73944
post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
I havent read the whole thread. Maybe somebody mentioned it already. What jumps out at me is that he seems to ski from inside ski to inside sk. He defenitely pushes off the inside leg at he end of the turn and he initiates the next turn on the opposite ski which is his new insided ski. I see lots of WC guys do this but I have not been able to fully analyse it
Are you saying he is pushing off his old inside ski at the end of the turn? To me it looks like he is stepping onto his old inside ski at the end of the turn by picking his old outside ski off the snow. In other words, he pushes off the outside ski. Or? When exactly do you se him push off the inside ski? (look at first slowmo turn to the skiers left)
post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Are you saying he is pushing off his old inside ski at the end of the turn? To me it looks like he is stepping onto his old inside ski at the end of the turn by picking his old outside ski off the snow. In other words, he pushes off the outside ski. Or? When exactly do you se him push off the inside ski? (look at first slowmo turn to the skiers left)
That´s called Inside Leg Exrension (ILE) and has been discussed in this forum at length. I am more interested in the second observation because it is new to me and I haven´t ben able to fully analyse it nor has anybody else to my knowledge. remembr last year we discussed use of the inside ski and you mentioned your coaches conversation with Kalle. Well. I haven´t been able to move forward from there.
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
That´s called Inside Leg Exrension (ILE) and has been discussed in this forum at length. I am more interested in the second observation because it is new to me and I haven´t ben able to fully analyse it nor has anybody else to my knowledge. remembr last year we discussed use of the inside ski and you mentioned your coaches conversation with Kalle. Well. I haven´t been able to move forward from there.
Maybe this needs a clarification. The old outside ski remains the old outside ski untill the old inside ski has come to flat. While skis are flat during the transition there is really no inside or outside ski. In other words, when skier releses the old outside ski he steps onto his old inside ski but he starts the new turn after going through flat so it cant be his inside ski. It's the "old inside ski" that has now become his "new outside" ski. Does this make any sence? Aborting the words new and old means that we start our turn on our outside ski and finish on our inside.
post #102 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Maybe this needs a clarification. The old outside ski remains the old outside ski untill the old inside ski has come to flat. While skis are flat during the transition there is really no inside or outside ski. In other words, when skier releses the old outside ski he steps onto his old inside ski but he starts the new turn after going through flat so it cant be his inside ski. It's the "old inside ski" that has now become his "new outside" ski. Does this make any sence? Aborting the words new and old means that we start our turn on our outside ski and finish on our inside.
That´s too complicated for me, Tom. If you are interested in the ILE look it up in the archives or talk to Rick He specializes in it.
post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
That´s too complicated for me, Tom. If you are interested in the ILE look it up in the archives or talk to Rick He specializes in it.
This is not ILE. Its OLF. I was just curious in your explanation because you said it looked like he was skiing from inside ski to inside ski. It looks that way if you segmented the turn a bit earlier or include the finish of the previous turn and dont look flat edges to flat edges. Then it would indeed be inside ski to inside ski. Its interesting in that sence since it could well be a cue for a drill. Thanks .
post #104 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
This is not ILE. Its OLF. I was just curious in your explanation because you said it looked like he was skiing from inside ski to inside ski. It looks that way if you segmented the turn a bit earlier or include the finish of the previous turn and dont look flat edges to flat edges. Then it would indeed be inside ski to inside ski. Its interesting in that sence since it could well be a cue for a drill. Thanks .
I dont understand everything you are saying but we seem to agree on some things. And I agree very much that drills would help a lot to learn to ski like this. Got any ideas ?
What is OLF ?
post #105 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
I dont understand everything you are saying but we seem to agree on some things. And I agree very much that drills would help a lot to learn to ski like this. Got any ideas ?
What is OLF ?
OLF or OLR means Outside Leg Flexion or Outside Leg Relese. Its more or less the same thing as far as I know, one refers to a physical muscle action the other to relesing the CoM momentum from the turn.
post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
OLF or OLR means Outside Leg Flexion or Outside Leg Relese. Its more or less the same thing as far as I know, one refers to a physical muscle action the other to relesing the CoM momentum from the turn.
Seems the same thing to me as ILF ? If you flex one leg you have to extend the other, huh?
post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
Seems the same thing to me as ILF ? If you flex one leg you have to extend the other, huh?
Actually you dont have to. You flex outside leg through the transition insted of extend inside leg through the transition. OLF is also called an retraction turn because insted of keeping your outside leg long and extended through transition and vaulting over lifting your CoM up as you come through edge change you flex your outside leg and let the CoM move unhindered sideways. You see these kind of turns in SL. Rebound from skis is needed to make the unweighted float longer.
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Actually you dont have to. You flex outside leg through the transition insted of extend inside leg through the transition. OLF is also called an retraction turn because insted of keeping your outside leg long and extended through transition and vaulting over lifting your CoM up as you come through edge change you flex your outside leg and let the CoM move unhindered sideways. You see these kind of turns in SL. Rebound from skis is needed to make the unweighted float longer.
Look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtQiDCEXnQ4

Porco dio ! Notice the inside ski to inside ski action ?

Can he do that using OLF ?
post #109 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
Look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtQiDCEXnQ4

Porco dio ! Notice the inside ski to inside ski action ?

Can he do that using OLF ?
Great skiing clip but if you want to analyze technique and see what is really going on and what movements are used you cannot take a whole WC run as an example. You need to single out the movements. However, if you look at skiers upper body you can see that he did not extend anything in order to move through the transitions. His upper body says calm and quiet. No abrupt UP moves. No vertical interuptions in CoM flow down the hill. That is OLF.

My bet is that what you are calling "inside to inside ski action" might also be somehting else. Thats where we should start. Can you give a detailed explanation of this ITISAction.
post #110 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Great skiing clip but if you want to analyze technique and see what is really going on and what movements are used you cannot take a whole WC run as an example. You need to single out the movements. However, if you look at skiers upper body you can see that he did not extend anything in order to move through the transitions. His upper body says calm and quiet. No abrupt UP moves. No vertical interuptions in CoM flow down the hill. That is OLF.

My bet is that what you are calling "inside to inside ski action" might also be somehting else. Thats where we should start. Can you give a detailed explanation of this ITISAction.
We might not agre on anything here, but we dont have to.

I see that he is pushing off his inside ski (left ski when turning left), which gets his skis to the outside and his upperbody down the hill.
About the next thing I am not so clear. He seems to engage to tip of his new inside ski when he starts engaging his edges. That might shorten the radius and help the outside ski to come around (waisteering). Pretty radical, eh? So is the skiing.
post #111 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
About the next thing I am not so clear. He seems to engage to tip of his new inside ski when he starts engaging his edges.
Does it relate to modern racing technique like what is said here?
http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/tendencies.htm

When talking about from neutral to power phrase
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exacted from the above article
Furthermore, in order to create such high edge angle above the fall line, the skier has to resort to applying more weight onto the inside ski.
post #112 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Does it relate to modern racing technique like what is said here?
http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/tendencies.htm

When talking about from neutral to power phrase
Its a long article. I just glanced at it. There doesn´t seem to be anything there that relates to what I see
post #113 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
Its a long article. I just glanced at it. There doesn´t seem to be anything there that relates to what I see
What if you just read those part (may be do a ie search) the author talk about phrase 0. He clearly stated that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by by the author
Furthermore, in order to create such high edge angle above the fall line, the skier has to resort to applying more weight onto the inside ski.
I believe its simple logic that its either true or false. Of course some people might argue where its applicable depending on terrain, snow condition, speed, steepness etc. Lets pretend we don't need to know these considerations.

later,

carver
post #114 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biowolf View Post
We might not agre on anything here, but we dont have to.

I see that he is pushing off his inside ski (left ski when turning left), which gets his skis to the outside and his upperbody down the hill.
About the next thing I am not so clear. He seems to engage to tip of his new inside ski when he starts engaging his edges. That might shorten the radius and help the outside ski to come around (waisteering). Pretty radical, eh? So is the skiing.
You are confusing things. What you are talking about is not pushing off the inside ski to start a new turn. No. You are pushing off the OLD outside ski, stepping onto the OLD inside ski. After this comes edge change and your OLD outside ski becomes the NEW inside ski. Your OLD inside ski becomes your NEW outside ski.
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