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How he achieve theses turns? - Page 2

post #31 of 114
Well, now we are getting somewhere in these discussions. I'm sorry I didn't see this thread sooner, or maybe I'm glad I didn't so I can jump in now. So, TDK, you don't agree with RayCantu that this skier's skiing might be improved by alignment? That seems to be your point, especially underlined by your comment about "natural ability." That begs the question: DO YOU THINK IT COULD BE RUINED BY ALIGNMENT ALTERATIONS? I think Ray's point is that making an adjustment to the skier's alignment could improve his turns. My guess is that even an elite skier will admit that one ski ski turns better than the other. That stated, then one would think therefore that by doing the opposite to what Ray or some other coach or bootfitter with a good eye would suggest, might make the skiing worse. RIGHT?

So, just because this guy is very good, that means to some of you it isn't worth discussing alignment and symmetry? And that alignment corrections are for the intermediate on rentals on the poma only? Come on...

And I wonder why a previous writer thinks he is skiing off the front end of the ski. It appears to me that he is using the whole side of the ski. Now, the previous note slots it up to "natural ability." Well, that may have gotten him there and thank goodness he has feet that fit well into the boots. Who knows how much alignment corrections this skier has already had? But let me tell you, deferring to the natural ability factor means that everyone else is resigned to skiing poorly and never improving. One either has the skill set from birth or they don't. So, let me ask TDK6 another question: Do you have custom footbeds in your boots? If so. WHY? My guess is that you do and that you kept them in because you either felt more comfortable and/or you skied better wearing them. Most folks who have them could not be paid to take them out. The reason. They ski better with them in. The next logical question is: WHAT ELSE CAN I DO TO IMPROVE MY SKIING BY MODIFYING MY EQUIPMENT? I know some great athletes who could not ski at all until they got their alignment in check. Once they did their learning curve was fantastic. I'll defer to MR. CANTU on the point of what he would do to modify the boot.

EJ
MOTIVE FORCE
post #32 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJL View Post


Now, the previous note slots it up to "natural ability." Well, that may have gotten him there and thank goodness he has feet that fit well into the boots. Who knows how much alignment corrections this skier has already had? But let me tell you, deferring to the natural ability factor means that everyone else is resigned to skiing poorly and never improving. One either has the skill set from birth or they don't.
Well no. I think you missed the point here. You are new here so let me try to explain. People have been advocating on these boards for years that we ski, or should ski, by making a series of conscious choices about what "techniques" to employ to get some desired output.

My view is this is completely totaly and uterlly untrue.

When skiers hit the true expert level as shown by the racer in the video they do these things "naturally" or by instinct. Sure when someone started skiing...somthing like ILS is not "natural". The skill needs to be trained, taught, developed. However overtime, as skills develop things that were once forigen become "natural". For me, for example, ILS is totally "natural", I dont need to think about it, or plan for it, it just happens. But that doesnt mean I got there without years of training.

Hence "natural ability" does not mean "born with it". I think the skier in the video, even the skier at the start of the video would laugh if someone implied they could ski like they do in the video from birth. Natural ability means they dont need to be conscious of the skill to be able to do it. It is ingrained at a subconscious level....like walking, I dont need to think about walking, but I had to work at it at first....and since then I have been practicing it virtually everyday.

Hence to learn to ski, you need to be able to develop skills. Expert skiers have developed the skills to the point they become "natural".

The point of UP post was the MA offered here will do nothing to assist a skier develop those skills....because for starters...the MAers dont even talk about them....nor do they show or discuss easier, versions of the skill that an intermediate can learn, and then build on to eventually be able ski like the skier in the video.

This should not surpise anyone, as doing what I wrote in the paragraph above takes considerable skill. Skill that is not easily obtained.
post #33 of 114
tdk6,
I must first say that any terms that I use in this description are useful only when used with the meaning I intend. If need be I can clarify my definition of the terms.

Keep in mind that as exracer asstutely pointed out the camera angle could be better for this purpose.

Comparing turns on the R foot to turns on L foot (better observed in the slow motion segment starting @ :42 and ending @ :55) it seems that the skier is more over edged on the R foot then the L foot.

This would be easy to confirm, on the hill, with a few strips of tape on the outside of the AFD and heel piece of the binding.

When comparing turns I watch the COM (center of mass) to see if there is a different pattern of movement both laterally inside of the radius of the new turn and rotationally, i.e., is counter maintained through the turn or if not at what point in the turn is it lost.

When comparing lateral movement is there more hip angulation (movement of COM inside new radius) or inclination/banking (movement of head and chest inside new radius) seen on one side relative to the other.

Differences from one side to the other are indications of balance compensations possibly caused by alignment problems.
post #34 of 114
There is an awful lot of mental masturbation going on here, but it's a good discussion .

Apart from the analysis-paralysis approach, IMO defaulting to any one performance factor misses the boat. Technique, tactics, equipment (not just the boots), psych & physical factors are all at play here. What about external stuff - for instance, do we know if the whole run isn't slightly off camber?

In short, there are multiple variables at play that can interact to give the final 'picture'. Is it the hill? Skis? Boots? Body? Line? Technique? Motor programming? All of the above? Hard to tell. Gotta be there. Gotta work with the athlete in multiple environments, watch them over time, pick away at stuff with trial, error, testing, and the clock .
post #35 of 114
jdistefa,
You bring up a very interesting point, about an off camber hill, which I had failed to consider. An example of this kind of hill would be the Kitzbuehel slalom.

If I was working with a skier and had made all the proper boot adjustments to put him in the "SWEET SPOT".

I would consider making just a "WHIFF" of an adjustment to the canting of the boot to compensate for the off camber hill.

This would allow the skier to ski with out having to make as many balance and movement adjustments as compensation for the hill.

This would be an obvious correction to someone with a understanding auto racing, an example would be setting up a car to turn left in a typical NASCAR race set up.

Thanks for reminding us of the many variables that must be considered when entering the realm of MA analysis-paralysis.
post #36 of 114
Ray - you got me . Laughed out loud reading your post.

FYI, I think almost every athlete needs to continually make subtle adjustments to their alignment setup. As you've pointed out, nobody is perfectly symmetrical. But on top of that, venues change, snow changes, and the sweet spot for SL skis is often different than DH. So - I don't think that canting is ever "done".

As per your Nascar example, if you're going to turn left all the time (see vid below ), obviously you're going to have an intentionally asymmetrical setup on the car. Bode had an interesting approach to this when he was with Atomic - he would often try different cuff durometers to compensate for an off-camber hill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwikX...eature=related
post #37 of 114
It's obviously time for the remote controlled canting binding that we can change on the fly as we see different hill grade situations approaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJL
And I wonder why a previous writer thinks he is skiing off the front end of the ski. It appears to me that he is using the whole side of the ski.
You're right, EJL, he is using the whole edge, all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICK
He initiates the new turn fore balanced, strongly on the front of the ski.
This just means that he is applying MORE load to the front of the ski than the back. The entire edge/ski IS being used, just in different pressure degrees. It's a strategy that causes the tip of the ski to hyper engage and produce a rapid turn initiation and aggressive early direction change. Very useful approach in racing, and also situationally in free skiing. Learning to move about the fore/aft balance plane is an important part of becoming a highly skilled skier. It allows one to exploit a wider range of the performance capabilities built into their skis.
post #38 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJL View Post
So, just because this guy is very good, that means to some of you it isn't worth discussing alignment and symmetry?
Ever wondered why threads dont stay on topic? I dont think this thread is much use to anyone under this topic. It should be moved to the boot fitting forum or the race forum. And it should be renamed "Proper alignment of a WC skier".
post #39 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Well no. I think you missed the point here. You are new here so let me try to explain. People have been advocating on these boards for years that we ski, or should ski, by making a series of conscious choices about what "techniques" to employ to get some desired output.

My view is this is completely totaly and uterlly untrue.

When skiers hit the true expert level as shown by the racer in the video they do these things "naturally" or by instinct. Sure when someone started skiing...somthing like ILS is not "natural". The skill needs to be trained, taught, developed. However overtime, as skills develop things that were once forigen become "natural". For me, for example, ILS is totally "natural", I dont need to think about it, or plan for it, it just happens. But that doesnt mean I got there without years of training.

Hence "natural ability" does not mean "born with it". I think the skier in the video, even the skier at the start of the video would laugh if someone implied they could ski like they do in the video from birth. Natural ability means they dont need to be conscious of the skill to be able to do it. It is ingrained at a subconscious level....like walking, I dont need to think about walking, but I had to work at it at first....and since then I have been practicing it virtually everyday.

Hence to learn to ski, you need to be able to develop skills. Expert skiers have developed the skills to the point they become "natural".

The point of UP post was the MA offered here will do nothing to assist a skier develop those skills....because for starters...the MAers dont even talk about them....nor do they show or discuss easier, versions of the skill that an intermediate can learn, and then build on to eventually be able ski like the skier in the video.

This should not surpise anyone, as doing what I wrote in the paragraph above takes considerable skill. Skill that is not easily obtained.
Good post. EXACTLY what I was getting at.
post #40 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post
tdk6,
I must first say that any terms that I use in this description are useful only when used with the meaning I intend. If need be I can clarify my definition of the terms.

Keep in mind that as exracer asstutely pointed out the camera angle could be better for this purpose.

Comparing turns on the R foot to turns on L foot (better observed in the slow motion segment starting @ :42 and ending @ :55) it seems that the skier is more over edged on the R foot then the L foot.

This would be easy to confirm, on the hill, with a few strips of tape on the outside of the AFD and heel piece of the binding.

When comparing turns I watch the COM (center of mass) to see if there is a different pattern of movement both laterally inside of the radius of the new turn and rotationally, i.e., is counter maintained through the turn or if not at what point in the turn is it lost.

When comparing lateral movement is there more hip angulation (movement of COM inside new radius) or inclination/banking (movement of head and chest inside new radius) seen on one side relative to the other.

Differences from one side to the other are indications of balance compensations possibly caused by alignment problems.
This is all very interesting but dont you agree with me that its not of any help to OP. He was asking "how to achieve these turns" and you are suggesting its far from perfect and you hand out very high end technical advice on "how to improve these turns". Almost like saying its nothing to try to achieve. Im not saying the skier is aligned properly but even if the topic of this thread was "how to imporve wc skiers performance by proper alignment" without knowing anyting about snow conditions, slope pich or off camber, gear or most importantly intent nitpicking the guys performance is wrong. BTW, on youtube there are tons of better footage (camer angle, quality, ref. skiers) on wc skiing, why use this home made vid?
post #41 of 114
Pardon me, but skiing is skiing. Whether the skier is an intermediate or a world class racer the same elements come into play. It may just come down to degree. My questions, in response to the previous writers were not answered, except to say that I'm off topic? I did not bring up a new topic. RayCantu made a point about alignment that seemed to be overlooked or misunderstood or disregarded in fact by most of the readers. I was attempting to make a point that alignment is a key, perhaps, THE KEY, to this sport. That point may be worthy of debate. The other point is that we have no idea what amount of alignment the skier in the video has had. How do we know about his natural or developed skills? RayCantu pointed out an asymmetry. He feels, and by my contribution here, I'm inclined to agree with him, that an alignment adjustment might improve his carves. Simple point made. And then there is this pervasive attitude that since the guy in the video is world class then it has to be natural and that an alignment correction wouldn't do anything. That is absurd. There is no response to my point that apparently an alignment change would not help a skier at this caliber. Nor to my comment that an ill advised change might make things worse. I'm left with the notion that Ray's points have escaped the readers here. The original question pertained to how the skier was able to achieve these turns. I don't see how we have strayed from this topic. This thread seems to be addressing this question to some degree.
Rick addressed my comment about the edge and modifying it to respond to the hill/race course. That is cool. By the way, what do you folks consider to be the "sweet spot" anyway?

So now, natural ability DOES NOT mean BORN WITH IT!? Since when? If I practice a skill, and acquire it then it was not natural. RIGHT? It becomes, "second nature" I suppose. If I modify my equipment somehow and I acquire a skill, say arcing a turn with a greater level of angulation, then perhaps I had some natural ability that was being inhibited by the equipment in the first place. I think that most skiers could be better skiers if their alignment was improved. This is a simple point made previously. We can work and work and work on techniques developed over the past 5,000 years, as noted, to overcome the inadequacies of the equipment or you can get yourself some footbeds, that actually do something, modify the ramp angle of the boot, adjust the cuff alignment side to side, and fore and aft, and cant the boot, in a number of possible ways and things might just change. Or are some of you still convinced that doing those things really does not make a difference, GOOD or BAD?

EJL
post #42 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
The point of UP post was the MA offered here will do nothing to assist a skier develop those skills....because for starters...the MAers dont even talk about them....nor do they show or discuss easier, versions of the skill that an intermediate can learn, and then build on to eventually be able ski like the skier in the video.

This should not surpise anyone, as doing what I wrote in the paragraph above takes considerable skill. Skill that is not easily obtained.
This is very true. When I start a skiing lesson I allways start it the exact same way no matter what kind of level skiers Im working with. Its a warm up drill we do with our skis on at the bottom of the hill. It includes a exersise where we stand and balance over one ski and then shift our weight over to the other. No matter what kind of level skiing we are trying to achieve, if we cannot balance over each of our skis independently and "naturally" we are also not going to be able to ski properly.

Just like Skidude so well pointed out, we need to be able to provide our students with easier versions of WC skiing. No-one can ski like the guy in the video out of the box. So what leyer of skills should the OP work with? My suggestion to OP would be to start with simple balancing drills where weight is shifted from one ski to the other. Learning forward aft and siceways balance, pressure controll, angulation, tipping etc is something you learn on your first lesson if instructor is competent. Dont be affraid to go back and work on the basics. All advanced athletes no matter what the sport is do that. Thats the secret to great success.
post #43 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJL View Post
Pardon me, but skiing is skiing. Whether the skier is an intermediate or a world class racer the same elements come into play. It may just come down to degree. My questions, in response to the previous writers were not answered, except to say that I'm off topic? I did not bring up a new topic. RayCantu made a point about alignment that seemed to be overlooked or misunderstood or disregarded in fact by most of the readers. I was attempting to make a point that alignment is a key, perhaps, THE KEY, to this sport. That point may be worthy of debate. The other point is that we have no idea what amount of alignment the skier in the video has had. How do we know about his natural or developed skills? RayCantu pointed out an asymmetry. He feels, and by my contribution here, I'm inclined to agree with him, that an alignment adjustment might improve his carves. Simple point made. And then there is this pervasive attitude that since the guy in the video is world class then it has to be natural and that an alignment correction wouldn't do anything. That is absurd. There is no response to my point that apparently an alignment change would not help a skier at this caliber. Nor to my comment that an ill advised change might make things worse. I'm left with the notion that Ray's points have escaped the readers here. The original question pertained to how the skier was able to achieve these turns. I don't see how we have strayed from this topic. This thread seems to be addressing this question to some degree.
Rick addressed my comment about the edge and modifying it to respond to the hill/race course. That is cool. By the way, what do you folks consider to be the "sweet spot" anyway?

So now, natural ability DOES NOT mean BORN WITH IT!? Since when? If I practice a skill, and acquire it then it was not natural. RIGHT? It becomes, "second nature" I suppose. If I modify my equipment somehow and I acquire a skill, say arcing a turn with a greater level of angulation, then perhaps I had some natural ability that was being inhibited by the equipment in the first place. I think that most skiers could be better skiers if their alignment was improved. This is a simple point made previously. We can work and work and work on techniques developed over the past 5,000 years, as noted, to overcome the inadequacies of the equipment or you can get yourself some footbeds, that actually do something, modify the ramp angle of the boot, adjust the cuff alignment side to side, and fore and aft, and cant the boot, in a number of possible ways and things might just change. Or are some of you still convinced that doing those things really does not make a difference, GOOD or BAD?

EJL
I do not quite follow your thinking here. Do a quick search in the archives on boot fitting and alignment. You will be surpriced at how much information you will find. Boot fitting and alignment are the most important equipment tunings one can make and there is nobody here that neglects this issue. The thing is that if you take part in a discussion on epic you should try to stick to the topic. If you want to discuss the video regarding boot alignment start your own thread with a different topic. I cannot see why that would be so hard. Anyway, this thread belongs in the racing forum not here.
post #44 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
My suggestion to OP would be to start with simple balancing drills where weight is shifted from one ski to the other.
You got me. I am working with very simple inclination. Not using skis but inline skates.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
this thread belongs in the racing forum not here.
I don't think so. This thread is about carving skill. I believe racing to win takes lot more.
post #45 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
You got me. I am working with very simple inclination. Not using skis but inline skates.
¨
Can you tell us a bit more. I remember your vid on skates from last year. Do you have any new stuff to post?
post #46 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
¨
Can you tell us a bit more. I remember your vid on skates from last year. Do you have any new stuff to post?
I just make clockwise and anti-clockwise small circles with inline skate. But keep incline all the time. I found that its not a natural move. I have to fight fear to do it properly. I also found that it is possible to emulate the feeling of the power phrase with these simple drill.
I do have a new vid on carver. Feel free to check.
post #47 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I just make clockwise and anti-clockwise small circles with inline skate. But keep incline all the time. I found that its not a natural move. I have to fight fear to do it properly. I also found that it is possible to emulate the feeling of the power phrase with these simple drill.
I do have a new vid on carver. Feel free to check.
Ok, I will check it out. BTW, do you mean "inclination" or "angulation"? If your problem is that you cannot lean/incline into the turn enough I dont think that "inclination" is your problem. Inclination has to do with speed, turn radius, edge hold, outside ski pressure, anticipation/counter, forward/aft balance and angulation. And canting offcourse . And snow conditions. And ski turn radius. And edge tuning. Inclination is just how much you lean into the turn and by refining above mentioned issues you can incline more. Your approach seems a bit backwards to me.
post #48 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
do you mean "inclination" or "angulation"? If your problem is that you cannot lean/incline into the turn enough I dont think that "inclination" is your problem. Inclination has to do with speed, turn radius, edge hold, outside ski pressure, anticipation/counter, forward/aft balance and angulation. And canting offcourse . And snow conditions. And ski turn radius. And edge tuning. Inclination is just how much you lean into the turn and by refining above mentioned issues you can incline more. Your approach seems a bit backwards to me.
Thanks for the warning. In fact my approach is a simple minded one. I see people can do inclination but I can't. I just go out and acquire this ability. How do I use it is another matter. In the learnig I found that inclination give me power as the lower body and upper is stacked up more. Not only to withstand the centrifugal force(high here as very small radius turn) reacting from the skate upward but to convert gravity into motive force.
post #49 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Thanks for the warning. In fact my approach is a simple minded one. I see people can do inclination but I can't. I just go out and acquire this ability. How do I use it is another matter. In the learnig I found that inclination give me power as the lower body and upper is stacked up more. Not only to withstand the centrifugal force(high here as very small radius turn) reacting from the skate upward but to convert gravity into motive force.
Inclination is leaning into the turn. So your problem is that you dont "dare" to lean into the turn enough and you think that this is holding your skiing back! What do you think of the WC skier in the video, do you think he inclines enough?
post #50 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Inclination is leaning into the turn. So your problem is that you dont "dare" to lean into the turn enough and you think that this is holding your skiing back! What do you think of the WC skier in the video, do you think he inclines enough?
Since I know he is a WC skier. I simply take his skiing as a perfect model. I know he could have many defects in some peoples eyes. But that is irrelevant for me. I merely like to know how he skis. Going back to inclination. I believe it is quite visible. Is that enough? I ll say I take it as a model.
post #51 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCantu View Post
The problem of the apparent lack of symmetry, i.e., one turn not the same as the other.
What is required of the slalom skier if some careless setup person would happen to place the gates in a non-symetrical pattern?

Does skiing symetrically trump making the gates?
post #52 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Since I know he is a WC skier. I simply take his skiing as a perfect model. I know he could have many defects in some peoples eyes. But that is irrelevant for me. I merely like to know how he skis. Going back to inclination. I believe it is quite visible. Is that enough? I ll say I take it as a model.
I too see perfect skiing in the vid and whish me and you could ski the same. Some of the kids we coach actually do ski just as well but you and me, we have to settle for something "in that direction" . Anyway, its a form of short turn he makes. Its basicly jumping from side to side and flexing through the transition and throwing himself donw the fall line. You know all this I know but its OLF and skiing in and out of counter and anticipation while cranking his skis into the fall line as a combination of tipping and femure rotation (depending on turn radius). And staying forwards during the pressure phase of the turn. The inclination is just a result of daring to throw yourselfe down the fall line waiting for your skis to come arround and support you during the pressure phase of the turn. BTW, with inline scates you cannot mimic the same kind of inclination you get on snow. The movements are the same but you will never be able to safely touch the pavement with your inside hand fist for example. Like bicykles, inline scating does not create the same kind of centrifugal forces as skiing does.

What skis are you on this year?
post #53 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I too see perfect skiing in the vid and whish me and you could ski the same. Some of the kids we coach actually do ski just as well but you and me, we have to settle for something "in that direction" .
Yes, of course. It give a good direction to go. Besides it's lots of fun working to understanding whats going on between his skis and the snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
The inclination is just a result of daring to throw yourselfe down the fall line waiting for your skis to come arround and support you during the pressure phase of the turn.
When its very icy you really need to have full confident to do the inclination. If you fail to get a gripping while starting an inclination you simply fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
BTW, with inline scates you cannot mimic the same kind of inclination you get on snow. The movements are the same but you will never be able to safely touch the pavement with your inside hand fist for example. Like bicykles, inline scating does not create the same kind of centrifugal forces as skiing does.

What skis are you on this year?
I believe centrifugal force come from circular motion. So there are no difference between skis and skate if you are making circular arc.
I still using racetiger stock sl 06. When the price is right I ll probably get a newer version.
post #54 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
I believe centrifugal force come from circular motion. So there are no difference between skis and skate if you are making circular arc.
There is a huge difference between inline skates and carving on snow when we are speaking centrifugal force. And the difference between falling on concrete or falling on snow in 40km/h is even bigger. Ever tried ice scating? Check out speed scating for inclination.

BTW, the kind of ice you have on racing tracks you dont have normally anywhere else. And after it gets worn out lets say after 40 runs it is unskiable by people not used to gate racing. In WC skiing they prepare the pist really well and sometimes its so icy that you cannot ski there at all. Not even all top 10 WC skiers manage to carve cleanly.
post #55 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
There is a huge difference between inline skates and carving on snow when we are speaking centrifugal force. And the difference between falling on concrete or falling on snow in 40km/h is even bigger. Ever tried ice scating? Check out speed scating for inclination.
Isn't it the same V*V/R? If you say the gripping, wheel vs steel edge, shovel vs no shovel then I can understand. Of course you can't really replace learning to incline with skate but the advantage is you don't need to get up to a snowy mountain and you can do it anytime you want. Only less effective.
post #56 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Isn't it the same V*V/R? If you say the gripping, wheel vs steel edge, shovel vs no shovel then I can understand. Of course you can't really replace learning to incline with skate but the advantage is you don't need to get up to a snowy mountain and you can do it anytime you want. Only less effective.
Skis produce very good edge hold compared to scates. Ever tried to scate when its raining? Im not ranting scating at all. On the contrary. We us that on a regular basis with our jr's during off season. Still dont understand why inclination is so important to you. Is there something in the "essentials" that you have found missing?
post #57 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Skis produce very good edge hold compared to scates. Ever tried to scate when its raining? Im not ranting scating at all. On the contrary. We us that on a regular basis with our jr's during off season.
sure the edge hold is different, but do you think the physics formula should hold? ie. one can compensate by reducing the radius. After all are u trying to prove there are no centrifugal force in scating? I mean if there are centrifugal force you can borrow it conveniently to practice the different balances in skiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Still dont understand why inclination is so important to you. Is there something in the "essentials" that you have found missing?
This is a very good question. I believe it can be somehow explained by the essentials but you have to be crystal clear of the concepts of the essentials to explain the seemingly inclination. I am way far from being there. I just trying to get a simple minded inclination.
post #58 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
sure the edge hold is different, but do you think the physics formula should hold? ie. one can compensate by reducing the radius. After all are u trying to prove there are no centrifugal force in scating? I mean if there are centrifugal force you can borrow it conveniently to practice the different balances in skiing.
IMO you are missing friction from your mathematical formula.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
This is a very good question. I believe it can be somehow explained by the essentials but you have to be crystal clear of the concepts of the essentials to explain the seemingly inclination. I am way far from being there. I just trying to get a simple minded inclination.
What is your take on inclination? How do you create inclination?
post #59 of 114
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
IMO you are missing friction from your mathematical formula.
I understand what you mean. The less than perfect edge hold in skating would take off some energy. But we can compensate for it by increasing the speed or reducing the radius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
What is your take on inclination? How do you create inclination?
From its look the CM seems more inside and there are more stacking but then less edge angle. It looks like the skier in the vid is making use of these property to get a stronger push once he get the gripping. I m not so sure how to get inclination yet. Still exploring.
post #60 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
From its look the CM seems more inside and there are more stacking but then less edge angle. It looks like the skier in the vid is making use of these property to get a stronger push once he get the gripping. I m not so sure how to get inclination yet. Still exploring.
I think you have missunderstood the meaning of the word "inclination". At least as far as I have understood it inclination is how much we lean towards the inside of the turn. It really does not have anything to do with banking or angulation. Here is how you create inclination; stand up on your roller scates and stand with your feet slightly apart. Now flex one leg or lift it up. You start falling in that direction. As you fall you pass through 0-90deg inclination.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › How he achieve theses turns?