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The Parallel Turn (a discussion about turn phases) - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Rick,

You wrote:
"You are steering thoughout the wedge turns, moderate skid anlge. The only way steering would be absent would be if your outside ski was carving a clean edge. This is not close to carving."

When I watch this video I don't see tdk6 steering through the turns. I see a passive tdk6 being steered through the turns by the actions of a skidding ski.

Wow, I learned a lot from what I just typed. There is steering present in these turns but it is not an active skier initiated, skier directed, guide the skis where the skier wants to go kind of steering. Instead it is a displace the tails to create a steering angle then let the skidding skis steer me kind of steering

tdk6,

I was struggling to put into words just what I meant by effective steering as opposed to crappy steering but now I think I can do it.

Effective steering is the active skier initiated/directed guiding of the skis to take the skier/skis where the skier wants to go.

Crappy/ineffective steering is passively allowing the skis to steer you wherever they happen to be going.

fom
post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Tdk6, Mind if I take a stab at your question?

Let's consider a car on an ice covered road traveling at 25 kph . (He's European, so no mph)
This driver wants to make a left turn into the narrow entrance of a ski area parking lot.

This driver considers two clear options to make his turn:

Option 1) He can guess at the best moment to start his turn and rapidly yank the steering wheel to the left. He'll be using

coarse guesswork to determine the amount of steering-wheel adjustment to make hoping it will be about right. He'll fully expect to make more coarse adjustments as the car will veer somewhat randomly to the left. He'll make more coarse guesswork adjustments to manage ongoing direction as the car fish-tails wildly. Eventually, the car will be pointed where he wants it to go.

Option 2) He wont guess at anything and instead will progressively and controllably rotate the steering wheel to the left. Since he'll be using finely controlled motor skills to rotate the steering wheel he'll be able to continuously guide the car in a fully controlled manner to the left. As the turn progresses he'll make more small, fully controlled adjustments as the car increasingly goes exactly where he wants it to go.

I think this is the same idea as gross, largely uncontrolled steering in skiing vs. fine, fully controlled steering.

Coarse steering patterns generally employ large muscle groups that simply overpower the ski and shove its tail somewhere close to where it will do the job. The snow will likely resist this lateral shove and then suddenly "give way" all at once rendering any planned amount of tail displacement nothing more than a hopeful guess.

Fine steering patterns employ both large and small muscle groups to controllably and progressively guide the direction each ski is pointing. (ILS does this quite well.) Steering efforts like this allow the skier to progressively modify each ski's current aim, even independently if they so choose.

Use of steering patterns is independent of Turn Phase (or whatever location classification you prefer). We can shove the ski around (or guide the ski around) just as easily at turn Finish as at turn Entry or turn Apex.

.ma
So, do you think my steering was functional or non functional in the video clip? In your car example, scenario 1 or 2?
post #33 of 45
Tdk6,

In past videos of yourself I've seen a variety of things but in this one I mostly see Option #1 deployed.

The first and second turns are as already described, stemming the outside-ski in an abrupt movement (akin to yanking the steering wheel) then letting the established steering angle drive things.

Turn 3 has an obvious stem/step move - both of which qualify as an abrupt movement to yank the steering wheel.

In turn 4, 5 and 6 we see a bit of a 'lurching' movement that is both upward and lateral along with some upper-body rotary to assist redirection of the skis. These moves help the skis to lurch into a new direction against the resisting surface - again the idea of yanking the steering wheel.

You know, that's actually a pretty good video for new hires to look at and try to spot what's really going on . Ideal for a discussion like this. If anyone can point to a real-world video of ILS in action it might make for a good comparison here.

Edit: Oh, and what you're doing is certainly 'functional' as proven by the fact that you are turning. I just think there are more controllable options.

.ma
post #34 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
Rick,

You wrote:
"You are steering thoughout the wedge turns, moderate skid anlge. The only way steering would be absent would be if your outside ski was carving a clean edge. This is not close to carving."

When I watch this video I don't see tdk6 steering through the turns. I see a passive tdk6 being steered through the turns by the actions of a skidding ski.

Wow, I learned a lot from what I just typed. There is steering present in these turns but it is not an active skier initiated, skier directed, guide the skis where the skier wants to go kind of steering. Instead it is a displace the tails to create a steering angle then let the skidding skis steer me kind of steering

tdk6,

I was struggling to put into words just what I meant by effective steering as opposed to crappy steering but now I think I can do it.

Effective steering is the active skier initiated/directed guiding of the skis to take the skier/skis where the skier wants to go.

Crappy/ineffective steering is passively allowing the skis to steer you wherever they happen to be going.

fom
One intent in the demo was to show how pressuring the skis makes them turn. This demo is aimed at beginner to intermediate level. In the wedge turns no other movement was used other than active weight transfer. The skis and their edges do all the work. In a way I think this is such a cool approach to skiing that I take this same consept to upper and advanced level where I let the skis run along their edges in pure arc to arc skiing. Letting the skis do all the work. I just tip and balance out the forces. Even advanced skiers have problems initiating a clean carve because they are too active.

As we can see from this quoting above the word "steering" means a lot of different things to all of us. We need to consider this when we communicate. Steering and its many faces. One new face to steering is introduced here by fatoldman where he talks about the ski doing the steering and the skier beeing passive. Except that in the video Im steering by pressuring the outside ski. For tighter turn more pressure. For less tight turn less pressure. At the beginning of the turn pressure is increased on outside ski and at the end of the turn pressure is levelled out to become closer to even.

Does this sound right: active weight transfer = passive steering? In the carving arc to arc kind of skiing, isnt tipping also passive steering (steering=turning)?

Does this sound right: steering that is produced by active weight transfer to pressure the outside ski at turn intiation and through the body of the turn is not actively initiating, directing or guiding the ski to go where the skier wants to go kind of steering.
post #35 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA View Post
Tdk6,

In past videos of yourself I've seen a variety of things but in this one I mostly see Option #1 deployed.

The first and second turns are as already described, stemming the outside-ski in an abrupt movement (akin to yanking the steering wheel) then letting the established steering angle drive things.

Turn 3 has an obvious stem/step move - both of which qualify as an abrupt movement to yank the steering wheel.

In turn 4, 5 and 6 we see a bit of a 'lurching' movement that is both upward and lateral along with some upper-body rotary to assist redirection of the skis. These moves help the skis to lurch into a new direction against the resisting surface - again the idea of yanking the steering wheel.

You know, that's actually a pretty good video for new hires to look at and try to spot what's really going on . Ideal for a discussion like this. If anyone can point to a real-world video of ILS in action it might make for a good comparison here.

Edit: Oh, and what you're doing is certainly 'functional' as proven by the fact that you are turning. I just think there are more controllable options.

.ma
Thanks for your good words on the video. Yes, one of the reasons I posted it is that it can create discussion. And nobody else posts any task videos or demos so Im kind of stuck using only my own. There are 3 primary turn types used in the video. First there is a wedge, then a stem and finally a parallel turn. Two of each. The video clip was made during one take only so all flaws and misstakes are there. I would have liked to be able to select between 3 or 4 takes but in a way this is cool since its close to the real thing. I challenge everyone to go out there and make a similair video of the exact same thing. And do variations. I have not met one person to date, me selfe included, that was not surpriced with how they actually ski once taped on video.

In the two first wedge turns I lean outwards and create more pressure on outside ski without changing edge angles. This is important, only shift your weight. Only pressure the outside ski more. Typical misstake by beginners is that they rotate into the turn and as their hips move out, outside ski looses its edge as it goes flat and they do not turn. Keep hips centered and only lean outwards with your body. This is also called angulation. Gives the skier a very strong edge hold. Its also closely related to balancing. In a way what you do is balance over your outside ski.

In the third and the forth turn I introduce a pole plant and insted of wedging all the time I traverse with skis parallel. Still, beginners will not be able to turn parallel out of a traverse so one option is to traverse in parallel and turn in a wedge. This leaves the beginner with two options: gradually sliding the skis into a wege (today we do this) or abruptly stem the new outside ski to create a steering angle and make the ski skidd. In both cases we end up in a wedge and can wedge through the body of the turn. At the end the wedge is gradually lost and skis point parallel. I have notissed that some students have a hard time loosing the wedge. The oldfashion stem turn is an option even though its not part of any modern ski school program. AT THE MOMENT . It will be back some day, mark my words. Anyway, the intent was to demo how to reach beyond the wedge. Sliding the skis gradually out in a wedge would not have been as visual.

In the last two turns I turn parallel. Sharp eyed instructors and readers here have made the right observations. I use a small UUW move. Once unweighted, a fraction of a second is all I need on such an easy slope at such low speeds, I fuel a pivot by rotating my hips a bit. The steering phase is not fueld by any additional rotation. The weight shift is timed to the pole plant. This means the the weight shift should take place very early in the turn. This is what separates good skiers from bad ones. Early weight shift and early commitment to the turn. Same goes for wedging and stemming.
post #36 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Upunweighting also seems like an archaic crutch for less skilled movements?
Or like a way for less skilled skiers to ski?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
TDK6, do you consider any up movement or extension, up-unweighting?
No. But if the extention is creating unweighting I do. Good thing to know is that when your extention starts there is increased pressure on your skis. As extention stops there is de-creased pressure on your skis. Up-unweighing is actually the skier extending untill he feels the pressure de-crease as he reaches full extention. If he combines this with flexing at that exact moment he is able to extend the unweighting time period. Im not a big fan of traditional head boppin up-unweighing but there is a gray zone..... BTW, I dont call ski jumping up-unweighting. I guess the word up-unweighting refers to what we do with our extention. Why we do it. A person traversing while extending and flexing I dont call up-unweighing. If he gets some air I call that jumping. Other whise I just call it an exersize in flexing and extending. A work out. Or plain old silly.
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
One intent in the demo was to show how pressuring the skis makes them turn. This demo is aimed at beginner to intermediate level. In the wedge turns no other movement was used other than active weight transfer. The skis and their edges do all the work. In a way I think this is such a cool approach to skiing that I take this same consept to upper and advanced level where I let the skis run along their edges in pure arc to arc skiing. Letting the skis do all the work. I just tip and balance out the forces. Even advanced skiers have problems initiating a clean carve because they are too active.

As we can see from this quoting above the word "steering" means a lot of different things to all of us. We need to consider this when we communicate. Steering and its many faces. One new face to steering is introduced here by fatoldman where he talks about the ski doing the steering and the skier beeing passive. Except that in the video Im steering by pressuring the outside ski. For tighter turn more pressure. For less tight turn less pressure. At the beginning of the turn pressure is increased on outside ski and at the end of the turn pressure is levelled out to become closer to even.

Does this sound right: active weight transfer = passive steering? In the carving arc to arc kind of skiing, isnt tipping also passive steering (steering=turning)?

Does this sound right: steering that is produced by active weight transfer to pressure the outside ski at turn intiation and through the body of the turn is not actively initiating, directing or guiding the ski to go where the skier wants to go kind of steering.

tdk6,

You say that you are steering because you are pressuring the skis. I look at it from the idea that except for the initial pressuring of the skis (your weight shift) you do nothing, a granite statue of you in your stance would finish these turns almost as well as you a living person. You are being passive and the skis are steering you just as they would steer the statue. Varing the pressure on the ski may well change the path of the ski but I don't see you doing that in these turns you are just passively riding the ski. Also I would probably argue that any way you change the pressure would either be the result of or result in a change of edge angle and it is the change of edge angle that changes the size of the turn but that discussion gets to far off the topic and I already feel like a bit of a hi-jacker.

You comment that you are letting the skis do the work which indeed you are and that you use the same idea in arc to arc skiing, just tip'em and balance things out. I call this kind of upper level skiing 'park and ride' because except for the initial move of tipping the skis you are just along for the ride going where the skis take you. Aside from the rush of speed I find this a very boring way to ski.

Skiers don't have a problem going arc to arc because they are too active they have a problem because the actions they are using are inefficient in relation to the goal of skiing arc to arc. Up unweighting disconnects you from the snow surface making it difficult to blend one arc into the next. Being more active in the unweighting move will not help in this situation. Maintaining ski snow contact and rolling the skis from one set of edges to the other will connect arcs. Being more active in the tipping and getting the body to move more quickly across the the skis will help in establishing the new arc.

In regards to your final two statements.

Weight shift plus brushing the skis tail out will lead to passive steering if the skier takes no further action in the turn.

I'm actively guiding my skis through the whole turn not just at the initiation. I'm looking down the hill and planning my route down and changing this turn actively to facilitate following my chosen path at the speed I want to negotiate it at.

fom
post #38 of 45
Thread Starter 
fatoldman, we are indeed getting far off the topic. But your posting is great and full of truths and thaughts of value. Thank you for being so outspoken. However, I will not argue with you wheather Im steering correctly or not. The simple fact that Im steering is good enough for me .
post #39 of 45
Ej,

We realize many skiers hold carving and arc 2 arc turns as the absolute epitome of skiing skill but in reality these type of turns are not the end of the rainbow. A skier who can skillfully steer his/her skis on any path they choose, as well as ski arc 2 arc, has a much deeper skill pool to handle any situation better.

Do not confuse uncontrolled skidding with steering!

Come ski out West with us and you will find there are many circumstances and situations where carving every turn will not fly and being skilled at adjusting your line by blending all the skills to achieve different turn shapes is paramount to success in the trees, steeps, narrow chutes, and obstacle laiden runs.
post #40 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
Ej,

We realize many skiers hold carving and arc 2 arc turns as the absolute epitome of skiing skill but in reality these type of turns are not the end of the rainbow. A skier who can skillfully steer his/her skis on any path they choose, as well as ski arc 2 arc, has a much deeper skill pool to handle any situation better.

Do not confuse uncontrolled skidding with steering!

Come ski out West with us and you will find there are many circumstances and situations where carving every turn will not fly and being skilled at adjusting your line by blending all the skills to achieve different turn shapes is paramount to success in the trees, steeps, narrow chutes, and obstacle laiden runs.

Well spoken Bud.
post #41 of 45
Ya Bud!

I'll get in late with a more simple functional perspective on turn phases. I'd suggest we really only do two things with our turns, use shaping movements to control how we go around one way, and transitional movements to switch edges so we can then shape how we go around the other way.

Shape to the left, transition, shape to the right, transition, etc.

So we are left with shaping (phase) movements,
and transitional (phase) movements.

All the movements and activities of all the other phases mentioned can be seen as sub-sets of these two skiing functions.

In expert skiers there is a seamless flow from shaping to transitional movements and from transitional to shaping movements.

When I ski I think even more simply: Go left go right etc.
My Go Where intent employs Transitional Movements,
and my How much Left or Right intent employs Shaping Movements.
post #42 of 45
I like it Arc! the more simple and holistic we make the complex movements the better we flow. Now and then we have the need to rip the turn apart into little tiny pieces of twitches and neuro sparks, but until we bring it all back into one flowing poetic movement it just ain't skiing! It's kinda like a reostat moving along from left to right brain skiing?!
post #43 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister View Post
So we are left with shaping (phase) movements,
and transitional (phase) movements..
Just curious, can we relate these movements to platform & ride?
post #44 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by carver_hk View Post
Just curious, can we relate these movements to platform & ride?
I think you could say that one platform is released and another created on the opposite edges by the transition phase.

There can be a ride component to the shaping phase, but the term ride seems to imply a passive 'take what you get' vs. active 'create what you want' approach to turn shaping.
post #45 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister View Post
I think you could say that one platform is released and another created on the opposite edges by the transition phase.

There can be a ride component to the shaping phase, but the term ride seems to imply a passive 'take what you get' vs. active 'create what you want' approach to turn shaping.
thanks.
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