EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Femurs Rotating in the Hip Sockets
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Femurs Rotating in the Hip Sockets - Page 3

post #61 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
LF, are you thinking of teaching in Europe or here in the US? My best advice would be to contact PSIA-E and do a shadow or two with a trainer level coach. Most would let you sit in on a class if you stay in the back. After the lesson talk with the coach and pick their brain about all of this stuff.
I'm stuck here in New England. Good advice - I'll do it.
I took some lessons with a level three/trainer guy last
year - that was good.

One of the reasons I'm teaching is for those early
morning clinics, which I hope turn out to be good.
Plus, I like to teach.
post #62 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillA View Post
LF,
You may find some answers in this thread or start a new thread on how to make a wedge turn.
Just a thought.
Thanks. I'll check it out.
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
Jabba,
Welcome. Let me be the first to ask you to expand on both FA and AF movements. How would you isolate each? How would you blend them?
To get back to this question, and looking at the example in the exercise. When considering AF movements you are considering position of the pelvis in relationship to the femurs. There are some basic rules. If the the left side is in a state of AF internal rotation, then the right side is in a state of AF external rotation. AF adduction on one side = AF abduction on the contralateral side. Same for AF flexion and extension. The goal for an athlete is to be able to have strong FA movement in varying AF postions. My work with athletes is to assess any limitations of AF position, correct that position, and then train FA movement accordingly in that newly established position. In the picture in my earlier post the athlete is first engaging muscle to establish AF control them performing contralateral FA activity. That exercise included control in all three planes of motion.
post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
Can you elaborate on what you are personally working on when you wedge? Are you doing this in order to instruct beginners better, or in order to ski better at your own level?
I practise the wedge in order to become a better skier. Usually I can combine this with lessons I give so I dont need to practise it for teaching reasons. Same movements are being used at entry and expert levels. Maybe you never saw this video clip I made back a few years. Check it out, it might give you some ides:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=A7F366B7
post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
So do you ski into a wedge or place the skis into a converging relationship then start moving TDK?
If you're doing the latter, how does that relate to Wedge Christies where you ski into and out of the wedge?
I can do both. Usually the skis need to be parallel in order to get moving. I also try to avoid students to be in a wedged position at standstill because the skis can easily start sliding backwards and we do not want that . The wedge christie I teach exactly the way you describe it, by skiing into the wedge. I prefer the varitaion where both skis are opened up at the same time. And brought back together at the same time.
post #66 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I practise the wedge in order to become a better skier. Usually I can combine this with lessons I give so I dont need to practise it for teaching reasons. Same movements are being used at entry and expert levels. Maybe you never saw this video clip I made back a few years. Check it out, it might give you some ides:
http://ski.topeverything.com/default...nt&ID=A7F366B7
I did see that, but forgot about it. Thank you.
post #67 of 87
I don't teach, but I did come across some interesting discussions. I have noticed a large difference between what some call a snowplow and what most people today call a wedge. A lot of people don't make the distinction, but some do.

A snowplow, which is what I learned as temporary stop-gap way to get on the mountain and turn so many years ago, involves getting both skis highly tipped onto their inside edges and pointing in at the tips- knees together heels apart, a form of torture for the legs. What seems to be taught today is a gliding wedge that has the edging component severely lessened if it's there at all and not much pointing in. The skis are steered more in the wedge, and use of edge to control direction was used exclusively in the old snowplow.
post #68 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I don't teach, but I did come across some interesting discussions. I have noticed a large difference between what some call a snowplow and what most people today call a wedge. A lot of people don't make the distinction, but some do.

A snowplow, which is what I learned as temporary stop-gap way to get on the mountain and turn so many years ago, involves getting both skis highly tipped onto their inside edges and pointing in at the tips- knees together heels apart, a form of torture for the legs. What seems to be taught today is a gliding wedge that has the edging component severely lessened if it's there at all and not much pointing in. The skis are steered more in the wedge, and use of edge to control direction was used exclusively in the old snowplow.
Interesting. I thought they were the same, and the terminology just changed over the last 20 years for some mysterious reason.
post #69 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB View Post
Well IMHO femur rotation lies at the heart of upper and lower body separation. Should we ignore the most powerfull joint in the body? Not me. Do I ski around thinking about my femur rotation all the time? No but sometimes I do deliberately work my femur rotation to acheive a specific end, or to play with range of motion in my femur and how this effects the outcome.

For a student thinking about their femurs may or may not be needed. If we can introduce some mental imaging that elicits the appropriate behavior, then why talk about it. However, I'm a believer in structural awareness and it's role in performance. For us instructors I would say definitely yes, we need to not only understand the role of femur rotation in skiing but also to be able to feel and alter this movement at will. I'm sure there are some who will disagree,,,,,I'm OK with that.
Ric,
in your opinion what is the biggest limiting factor in skiers not being able to "seperate upper and lower halfs?" If I understand correctly this term is referring to counter-rotation to maintain balance.
post #70 of 87
Liquid,

I’m writing this while brewing a batch of beer so I hope I can keep the narrative coherent. (Brewing a batch of beer requires the ceremonial drinking of a few previously home brewed beers.)

Ghost was right in telling you that there are wedges and there are wedges. The old snowplow is a braking maneuver with an underlying don’t go philosophy. The gliding wedge is a non-braking stance that facilitates the learning of movements that will allow the student to go where they want to and quickly move the student to a parallel turn. The modern PSIA teaching method is more or less founded use of the gliding wedge as the basis to start from.

What tdk6 is showing in the video and talking about is more in line with the traditional snowplow. The ski tips are close together and the tails are far apart making a large wedge platform. The skier is also usually exerting an outward pressure on the skis to maintain this stance. The skis are acting together as brakes to slow the skier’s forward movement. The right ski is acting to move the skier to the left and the left ski is acting to move the skier to the right. When the skier wants to go left weight is shifted to the right ski and its edge angle is increased. This move makes the right ski exert a more powerful force than the left ski so the skier moves to the left. The process is reversed when the skier wants to go to the right.

With the gliding wedge the tips are closer together than the tails but the difference is not nearly as great as it is in the snowplow and the skier should never be exerting an outward pressure on the skis. The idea is that the skis will glide easily over the snow surface with a minimal degree of breaking. When this skier, who is already moving forward, wants to go to the right all they have to do is use their feet and legs to guide the tips of the skis to the right (point your toes right is the cue I use for children). When they do this a lot of things happen, the right ski flattens on the snow and the left ski tips up a little more. As the skier starts to move to the right they will feel the pressure move naturally to the left ski and they will be riding the ski where they want to go. To go left they stop guiding the skis to the right and start guiding the tips to the left.



fom
post #71 of 87
Jabba, I read through that article, and I cannot grok how to perform the exercise.

Can you provide a simpler description please? I think that went over the heads of 97% of all instructors -- me included.....

The exercise appears to show the rotation of the femur along the axis of the femur. Is that so?
post #72 of 87
Sorry for the confusion. I will list the steps of the exercise along with the targeted muscle groups, and the plane of motion. Again this is only an example to promote thoughts on how to train taking into consideration of AF and FA activity. This particular exercise would be one of several in a progression to help an athlete imporve AF control on the left while improving recruitment and strength of right FA control.

Supine Hooklying Left Glute Max with Right Glute Med



1. Inhale through the nose, and then while exhaling tilt pelvis off of floor. (hamstrings posteriorly rotate pelvis, sagittal plane)
2. While maintaing pelvic tilt with the left leg, Shift the right knee ahead of the left knee.( right glutes with left adductors, this is AF adduction/internal rotation, and trunk abduction, Frontal plane activity).
3. While maintaing this tilted and shifted position, take right foot off of the block and turn ankle/lower leg out = right FA internal rotation (targets glute med, Transverse plane movement)
4. Hold this position as you breath in through the nose and out through the mouth 4-5 times.

There are two main goals. Stabilize the pelvis= AF control. And improve rotational strength.

The athlete pictured is a DIV 1 volleyball player who's asymmetry put her at risk when landing from jumping movement. She had to work to correct her inability to maintain or stabilize the pelvis equally on both sides. As a science we are discovering that most of us have more exagerated asymmetries than initally thought. My area of interest is to promote concepts and understanding amongst Skiing athletes about how to minimize these influences. In fact in many sports traditional athletic stregthening programs, that are in some ways still rooted in bodybuilding concepts, exagerate and promote asymmetry and lead to a less functional athlete.

So the exercise listed above is only an example. I just hoped it would inform those here who teach and coach, that there are new concepts out there and great resources. For example, these concpets could potentially help a racer who is struggling with a weak turn to one side.

Hoped that helped.
post #73 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Jabba, I read through that article, and I cannot grok how to perform the exercise.

Can you provide a simpler description please? I think that went over the heads of 97% of all instructors -- me included.....

The exercise appears to show the rotation of the femur along the axis of the femur. Is that so?
Yes the axis of rotation is the axis of the femur on the right leg, in this case the hip is somewhat flexed. If the hip was straight and the right femur was internally rotated, then the axis of rotation would still be the axis of the femur, however the muscles at the hip required for that movement whould be slightly different in their recruitment, due to leverage etc.
post #74 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
Liquid,

I’m writing this while brewing a batch of beer so I hope I can keep the narrative coherent. (Brewing a batch of beer requires the ceremonial drinking of a few previously home brewed beers.)

Ghost was right in telling you that there are wedges and there are wedges. The old snowplow is a braking maneuver with an underlying don’t go philosophy. The gliding wedge is a non-braking stance that facilitates the learning of movements that will allow the student to go where they want to and quickly move the student to a parallel turn. The modern PSIA teaching method is more or less founded use of the gliding wedge as the basis to start from.

What tdk6 is showing in the video and talking about is more in line with the traditional snowplow. The ski tips are close together and the tails are far apart making a large wedge platform. The skier is also usually exerting an outward pressure on the skis to maintain this stance. The skis are acting together as brakes to slow the skier’s forward movement. The right ski is acting to move the skier to the left and the left ski is acting to move the skier to the right. When the skier wants to go left weight is shifted to the right ski and its edge angle is increased. This move makes the right ski exert a more powerful force than the left ski so the skier moves to the left. The process is reversed when the skier wants to go to the right.

With the gliding wedge the tips are closer together than the tails but the difference is not nearly as great as it is in the snowplow and the skier should never be exerting an outward pressure on the skis. The idea is that the skis will glide easily over the snow surface with a minimal degree of breaking. When this skier, who is already moving forward, wants to go to the right all they have to do is use their feet and legs to guide the tips of the skis to the right (point your toes right is the cue I use for children). When they do this a lot of things happen, the right ski flattens on the snow and the left ski tips up a little more. As the skier starts to move to the right they will feel the pressure move naturally to the left ski and they will be riding the ski where they want to go. To go left they stop guiding the skis to the right and start guiding the tips to the left.
fom


Thank you, thank you, thank you. Boy is this clear. I love clarity. Is the beer ready?
post #75 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JabbaTheHuck View Post
Yes the axis of rotation is the axis of the femur on the right leg, in this case the hip is somewhat flexed. If the hip was straight and the right femur was internally rotated, then the axis of rotation would still be the axis of the femur, however the muscles at the hip required for that movement whould be slightly different in their recruitment, due to leverage etc.
Thank you.

The femur rotation that is being spoken about here is one where the knees move from side to side, like when Checker does "the twist".
post #76 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by JabbaTheHuck View Post
Ric,
in your opinion what is the biggest limiting factor in skiers not being able to "seperate upper and lower halfs?" If I understand correctly this term is referring to counter-rotation to maintain balance.
Welcome Jabba, good discussion.

In my mind this upper and lower body separation encompasses more than just counter rotation. It underlies the whole concept of stability and mobility operating in harmony and our ability to maintain an effective balance between these two.

Functional fitness and range of motion issues are what limit most skiers from effective separation from what I see. People don't always want to hear this though,,,,I see the same issues show up in my tai chi chaun students as well.

I always liked the pilates saying "the movements we want out of our body, we have to put into our body". What the body can naturally do is generally overidden and/or restricted by our habitual patterns of movement.

From here we move into alignment issues both fore/aft and lateral. If we aren't aligned and balanced through our base of support then we further reduce our ability to move functionaly and to be "light and agile" and versatile.
post #77 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
Liquid,
The old snowplow is a braking maneuver with an underlying don’t go philosophy.
I think this attitude is what drove modern teaching technique to the gliding wedge. Strangely enough I only discovered this don't go feature of the snow plow when I learned about the gliding wedge from these forums. To me, the snow plow had always been about using the inside edge of the highly tipped right ski to go left, and the inside edge of the highly tipped left ski to go right, and only using it as a brake by cheating and trying to go to both directions at once. It was back in the day also a very temporary way to get the feeling of a loaded decambered ski going where it was pointing, and the skier should be onto paralell turns by day 3.

It was seen differently by most instructors, and a lot of students who got stuck on it, and the tipping and edging of the snow plow gave way to the steering of the gliding wedge. It seems, looking about the hill that many are still wedging long after they should be carving turns.
post #78 of 87
Ghost,

From your post I get the feeling that you think that much of the skidding type skiing seen on the hill is the result of the 'steering' taught in the gliding wedge. This is not the case. Most of that type of skiing is the result of teaching a weightshift to create a turn or learning to edge the ski by pushing it away from the skier (this results in a displacement of the heel). Unfortunately, these are the two main ways that most skiers are taught to ski. And when the snowplow was the accepted starting point for teaching it was almost 100%, and in those days skidding was much more prevalent than it is today.

Learning to guide the tips of the skis from a gliding wedge is one of the quickest routes to parallel skiing (most students will be parallel in a couple hours) and leads directly to using the design of the ski to move the skier where they want to go. A well taught student uses the right edges of the skis to go right and the left edges of the skis to go left. All those skiers that you see stuck in the wedge are there due to poor instruction and/or lack of instruction.

Liquid,

The beer I made today will be in the primary fermenter for a week then in the secondary fermenter for 1 to 3 weeks then condition in the bottle for 2 to 4 weeks at which time it will be ready to drink. This could be a drag but fortunately I brew a lot so I have a couple hundred bottles of various types of beer in my beer cave that are ready to drink right now. In fact I think that there is a bottle of red ale that is just in its prime that is demanding that it be drank right now.

fom
post #79 of 87
FOM,

Certainly steering the toes into the turn instead of pushing the heels out is an improvement, but the real trick is just getting the skis up on edge and letting them run. It seems some folks spend too much time pushing or sliding either part of the ski, before they realize all they need do is tip and rip. On the other hand, not everybody has the balance skills to jump right onto their edges on day one.

I think the sorry state of the skiers I see on the hill is a result of not taking any lessons at all or taking a first lesson and stopping there. To learn how to carve properly used to require a fair bit of speed in the old days. Perhaps some of the self-taught skidders never skied fast enough; I didn't have that problem.

I used to make beer. I was quite fond of a ready-made product called Austrilia Real Ale, that made beer making quite simple. I just cut the water content down by quite a bit and it turned out quite good. The only problem was a bit of sludge in the bottom of each litre bottle.

Later I discovered these U-brew places that allowed you to use their equipment on premises, including filters. The beer I made there, despite being filtered developed some particulate matter floating in the bottles, and wasn't as good as the stuff I made at home.

Do you use any bottling sugar?
Do you filter your beer?

Cheers!
post #80 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I don't teach, but I did come across some interesting discussions. I have noticed a large difference between what some call a snowplow and what most people today call a wedge. A lot of people don't make the distinction, but some do.

A snowplow, which is what I learned as temporary stop-gap way to get on the mountain and turn so many years ago, involves getting both skis highly tipped onto their inside edges and pointing in at the tips- knees together heels apart, a form of torture for the legs. What seems to be taught today is a gliding wedge that has the edging component severely lessened if it's there at all and not much pointing in. The skis are steered more in the wedge, and use of edge to control direction was used exclusively in the old snowplow.
I think that the person that came up with the name "wedge" to describe a slightly less aggressive "snow plow" did it eather because he never understood the whole consept of a snow plow or he did it for marketing reasons. Or then his intention was only to rename it for the heck of it. English is a language with a lot of synonymes and it shows in skiing. There has always been different rates of edge set in a snow plow depending on intent. But I have no problem calling the snow plow a wedge. Its a good word.

BTW, what do you mean with your last sentance?
post #81 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
I think that the person that came up with the name "wedge" to describe a slightly less aggressive "snow plow" did it eather because he never understood the whole consept of a snow plow or he did it for marketing reasons. Or then his intention was only to rename it for the heck of it. English is a language with a lot of synonymes and it shows in skiing. There has always been different rates of edge set in a snow plow depending on intent. But I have no problem calling the snow plow a wedge. Its a good word.

BTW, what do you mean with your last sentance?
In the snowplow I learned, it is the interaction of the weighted edge with the snow that caused the ski and the skier to turn. In that snow plow, no steering of the ski was involved except for the initial change from || to /\. That initial movement is probably what led to the demise of the snowplow because, as FOM said, people were pushing their heels out to begin turns long after they should have been past the wedge. The effect of more weight on the front or back giving a turning torque due to snow forces could be explored, but not "steering" of the skis by the legs, just weighting the edges and steering of the legs by the skis.
post #82 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
I think this attitude is what drove modern teaching technique to the gliding wedge. Strangely enough I only discovered this don't go feature of the snow plow when I learned about the gliding wedge from these forums. To me, the snow plow had always been about using the inside edge of the highly tipped right ski to go left, and the inside edge of the highly tipped left ski to go right, and only using it as a brake by cheating and trying to go to both directions at once. It was back in the day also a very temporary way to get the feeling of a loaded decambered ski going where it was pointing, and the skier should be onto paralell turns by day 3.

It was seen differently by most instructors, and a lot of students who got stuck on it, and the tipping and edging of the snow plow gave way to the steering of the gliding wedge. It seems, looking about the hill that many are still wedging long after they should be carving turns.
Your description of the snow plow is correct. Both skis are on their inside edges and if pressured equal they track straight ahead. If weight shifts to left leg, left ski inside edge friction is increased and it steers that ski to the right. It is however incorrect belief that the left skis edge angle should be increased. Edge angles should be kept unaltered. To slow down or brake, increase pressure on both skis simultaniously by pushing both skis outwards simultaniously. To accelerate, decrease pressure on both skis simultaniously by bringing both skis inward simultaniously. Thats the way the snow plow has been thaught for quite some time. Sure the snow plow has changed a bit since the 40s but so has a lot of things including parallel turning. Gear for example. With modern short skis its not necessary to push the skis out as far as before. Dont get hung up on the word "push". Lets use a more gentle word, "glide". There should not be anything forcefull in a snow plow.
post #83 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
In the snowplow I learned, it is the interaction of the weighted edge with the snow that caused the ski and the skier to turn. In that snow plow, no steering of the ski was involved except for the initial change from || to /\. That initial movement is probably what led to the demise of the snowplow because, as FOM said, people were pushing their heels out to begin turns long after they should have been past the wedge. The effect of more weight on the front or back giving a turning torque due to snow forces could be explored, but not "steering" of the skis by the legs, just weighting the edges and steering of the legs by the skis.
This is a very interesting discussion. What is steering? Earlier this fall we have in the steering threads reached a consensus that steering can be passive. Steering does not have to involve active continuous muscle movements to steer our skis. If instructors are worried that students hang onto wedging too long might consider a direct to parallel approach. IMO skiing is like walking. For some it takes a bit longer but eventully everyone succeeds. Some better some not so good. I dont like rushing things.
post #84 of 87
I'm afraid I will have to leave the discussion of unintentional versus intentional steering to another day. I suppose any change of the wedge angle could be called intentional steering. To me steering is changing the direction the ski is pointing by exerting a torque on the ski about an axis that is perpendicular to the plane of the ski. I differentiate this action from applying torque about an axis in the plane of the ski that is perpendicular to the skis (fore aft pressure control), which changes the direction the ski is pointing via changing reaction forces of the snow on different ends of the skis.

Different strokes for different folks. I taught my daughter to carve/arc parallel turns in a few days. My son didn't have enough balance skills to carve as quickly. I bought him a few professional lessons and he is wedging, not carving after many more days than it took my daughter to carve/arc, but at least he is developing those skills and having fun on the snow.
post #85 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
Ghost,

From your post I get the feeling that you think that much of the skidding type skiing seen on the hill is the result of the 'steering' taught in the gliding wedge. This is not the case. Most of that type of skiing is the result of teaching a weightshift to create a turn or learning to edge the ski by pushing it away from the skier (this results in a displacement of the heel). Unfortunately, these are the two main ways that most skiers are taught to ski. And when the snowplow was the accepted starting point for teaching it was almost 100%, and in those days skidding was much more prevalent than it is today.

Learning to guide the tips of the skis from a gliding wedge is one of the quickest routes to parallel skiing (most students will be parallel in a couple hours) and leads directly to using the design of the ski to move the skier where they want to go. A well taught student uses the right edges of the skis to go right and the left edges of the skis to go left. All those skiers that you see stuck in the wedge are there due to poor instruction and/or lack of instruction.

fom
IMO the problem with ski instruction these days is the lack of proper weight shift. In all high performance skiing there is weight shift, now more than ever before due to modern shaped carving skis and high edge angles. When skiing very slowly like we do in a wedge we need to create some of that centrifugal force ourselves. Thats why it has been called active and passive weight shift/transfer. Ultimately its the edges that do the turning. Its all just pressure management and balancing.
post #86 of 87
Here's a few tidbits about steering:

- Steering happens be applying, in some manner, a rotary force through the legs and into the feet that acts to twist the skis into a new direction.

- Little hip/femur rotation is needed to execute this. Add it for other reasons, if and when needed or desired.

- You are standing in the middle/back section of your skis, so any rotary force will act to twist the tips and tails in opposite left/right directions. You can, however affect somewhat which receives the bigger twisting force by adjusting you fore/aft balance.

- Move back to your heels and steer,,, your tips will feel the bigger rotary force (towards the direction of the turn).

- Move forward onto the balls of your feet and steer,,, your tails will feel the slightly bigger rotary force (away from the direction of the turn).

- When the skis are on edge and pressured, the tails will always find it easier to steer away from the turn than the tips will to steer towards the turn. Steering engaged tips into the turn drives the tips into a stronger engagement, and the snow resists it. Steering engaged tails away from the turn disengages them, and the snow offers little resistance. Result; the tails will generally experiece the greater lateral movement.

- At the top of a turn a simple flattening (or even tipping downhill) of the skis, and a moving the Center of Mass forward, will cause the skis to self seek the falline. No steering required.

- Remove all steering rotary force, put the skis on edge, stay balanced, and carving happens.
post #87 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
- When the skis are on edge and pressured, the tails will always find it easier to steer away from the turn than the tips will to steer towards the turn. Steering engaged tips into the turn drives the tips into a stronger engagement, and the snow resists it. Steering engaged tails away from the turn disengages them, and the snow offers little resistance. Result; the tails will generally experiece the greater lateral movement.
Another tid-bit:

If the turn is not edge locked, and there is some sideways movement/slipping of the ski, then a pivot directly underfoot will slow the slipping of the tip, and increase the slipping of the tail.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Femurs Rotating in the Hip Sockets