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Factory Tune or "New Ski" Tune? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
My tuning preference depends on what the ski is and where I will be skiing it. If it is a hard snow ski with a TR under 15, I will not detune it, but a fatter soft snow ski will get detuned.
post #32 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by DropCliffsNotBombs View Post
Oh yes they do! I have cut my hands more pulling the plastic off of new Nordicas (or race tuned skis) than I ever have on used, burred edges - by far! Your lack of real shop experience is showing through "Atomicman." I do, however, still respect your personal opinion on tuning your skis, but it does not apply to everyone like you think. .
So your saying you have to have worked in a "real" ski shop to know how to work on skis? I won't let a r"real' shop touch our skis except to grind 'em! Are you kiddin' me?

Well of course you can cut your hands on a sharp metal edge if you drag your hand down it just wrong. Also, taking the plastic off is a very specific motion. But wow, I've unwrapped plenty of new race skis in my day and never cut myself once.

I assume you are not pulling the plastic off used skis?

You didn't answer my qustion on your bevel measuring device?
post #33 of 52
Additionally, i have discussed this subject in depth and in person with Scott Holmer. He owns the Race Place and invented and designed "The Beast" line of tuning gear. Although any skier is certainly free to tune their skis as they preferr, Scott recommends no detuning and adding base bevel in the tip and/or tails if the skier feels it necessary.

He owns a "real" shop, has real tuning gear and has tuned just a few skis over the years.

but again folks are free to tune as they see fit.
post #34 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Additionally, i have discussed this subject in depth and in person with Scott Holmer. He owns the Race Place and invented and designed "The Beast" line of tuning gear. Although any skier is certainly free to tune their skis as they preferr, Scott recommends no detuning and adding base bevel in the tip and/or tails if the skier feels it necessary.

He owns a "real" shop, has real tuning gear and has tuned just a few skis over the years.

but again folks are free to tune as they see fit.
heh, not 20 minutes ago, I was going through some old stuff and found a "Beast" sticker.
post #35 of 52
I think I have a couple of those laying around here too.

Although I gotta be honest I have not used the beast tuning stuff for a few years. But I do use his vises!
post #36 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Additionally, i have discussed this subject in depth and in person with Scott Holmer. He owns the Race Place and invented and designed "The Beast" line of tuning gear. Although any skier is certainly free to tune their skis as they preferr, Scott recommends no detuning and adding base bevel in the tip and/or tails if the skier feels it necessary.

He owns a "real" shop, has real tuning gear and has tuned just a few skis over the years.

but again folks are free to tune as they see fit.
The shop of choice in these neck of the woods.
post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Additionaly, the ceramic disc finish that the factories use is extremly difficult to duplicate and produces an extremely highly polsihed edge that is very smooth with a ton of edge grip.
I agree with spindrift, but I have to point out that what you say here isn't really true. Good shops in parts of the country where tunes need to not suck will have ceramic disc edgers. Just the price of a new car and a call to an Austrian company away.

When I'm around one of those machines, I use it almost exclusively for all my edge finishing, and only do minor tip and tail touchup, particularly after grinding skis.

It is regrettable at this point that so many shops haven't invested in this technology. It is up to the consumer to demand it.

About the possibility of unfinished rec skis: Nothing you or I would buy would be unfinished, but I've seen many US made "boutique" or "back of truck" brands where calling them finished would be a gross overstatement. Not likely the spinny flippy folks care too much about it.
post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
God Damn, we finally agree on something!!!!

I would always ski on the skis first and only retune them if you had some probelm with the tune on the hill!

some manufacturer's race stock skis (rossi) come with no base or side bevels and must be finished to the racers desired specs but no rec ski come unfinished.
When we were talking about the Head SS Magnum (not this thread), you said several times, as I recall, that the ski needs to be changed from what ever to 1/3??? Isn't that along the lines of what you said?

If you were to purchase a new pair of Head SS Magnum, should you change the bevel before you ski on them? And, would the average person be able to make that change in his home shop?

I would never de-tune a ski (tip/tail) before it was skied. I might change the bevel if I believed it to be the correct thing to do. I would want to know more about the 1/3 logic and the benifits before making that change.
post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
When we were talking about the Head SS Magnum (not this thread), you said several times, as I recall, that the ski needs to be changed from what ever to 1/3??? Isn't that along the lines of what you said?

If you were to purchase a new pair of Head SS Magnum, should you change the bevel before you ski on them? And, would the average person be able to make that change in his home shop?

I would never de-tune a ski (tip/tail) before it was skied. I might change the bevel if I believed it to be the correct thing to do. I would want to know more about the 1/3 logic and the benifits before making that change.
I would ski the Magnum first as I suspect A-man would, but I have skied it and its edge grip sucks at whatever edge angle it comes with. A 1,3 or a 0.5,3 would undoubtedly improve its edge grip. I suspect A-man found this out by skiing it as is also.
post #40 of 52
...and then hand tune the ski in my own shop.

Would you say that all Head's would need a more agressive tune or is it just the Magnum.

bz
post #41 of 52
[quote=Paul Jones;948813]When we were talking about the Head SS Magnum (not this thread), you said several times, as I recall, that the ski needs to be changed from what ever to 1/3??? Isn't that along the lines of what you said?

If you were to purchase a new pair of Head SS Magnum, should you change the bevel before you ski on them? And, would the average person be able to make that change in his home shop?

I would never de-tune a ski (tip/tail) before it was skied. I might change the bevel if I believed it to be the correct thing to do. I would want to know more about the 1/3 logic and the benefits I would always ski on the ski before making any changes. I own 4 pair of head skis @ pair of 88 Monsters (175 & 186cm)Supershape Speed and RD i.sl.

I have found that in general Head's Factory tune has too much base bevel and not enough side edge bevel.

Reducing base bevel is not something you can do at home without first having the bases stoneground flat. At home you can only increase base bevel.

Side edge bevel cna be increased or decreased at will at home. although it is very important to remove enough sidewall lip material (Head has an abundance) to get a true 2 or 3 degree side edge.

Increased side edge bevel (Let's say a 3 degree) creates an acute side edge angle which creates edge grip far superior to a 1 degree or 2 degree side edge on hard snow. it A 3 degree has absolutly no down side on soft snow that i have experienced. (In fact all Atomis and Fischers come from the factory with a 3 degree side edge)

A 1 degree base bevel generally speaking is the "Gold Standard" for most skis. Many racers and some rec skiers like a .5 or a .7, but these are very demanding. A 1 degree base bevel is a good all around base bevel. Base bevel is really the heart & soul of how your ski will feel on hard snow. The less base bevel the sooner the edge will engage. for example a .5 is only .5mm of gap at 60mm across the base of the ski a !degree is 1mm of gap at 60mm across the ski. Yes we are only talking a .5mm difference at 60 mm across the ski but that is a 100% increae in base bevel and makes a remarkable difference in ski performance. A .5 is mostly used by fairly high level slalom racers.

So a 1 degree base bevel is a more forgiving looser feel But a true 1 degree is in no way sloppy feeling. When you get much over 1 you would find your skis feeling slippery and would need an unacceoptable amount of inclination or edge angle to get the ski to engage. By contrast a .5 would need very little to engage. In other words "neutral" has a very small window.

One interesting observation is that much of this feel in base bevel difference for me is directly in relation to the last ski I skied on. In other words After skiing a few runs on a .5 a then switching to a ski with a 1 feels really loose and sloppy until I ski on it a few runs and "dial" into the ski. Just as starting on a 1 and going to a ski with a .5 feels extremely demanding and unforgiving until I have skied a few runs and dial into where the ski engages and releases.

Since I have identical multiple pairs of slalom and GS skis I have been able to tune them differently and go ski on them back to back.

Hopefully this answers your questions and you find this helpful.



I would definetly ski the ski first. If you felt they did not have enough edge grip I would then increase the side edge bevel. if this was not satisfactory i would then have the ski stoneground and completly retune them from scratch.

Just for fun you might start with a .5 and a 3 go see if you like that. if not you can then increase the base bevel to a 1 degree.
post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
...and then hand tune the ski in my own shop.

Would you say that all Head's would need a more agressive tune or is it just the Magnum.

bz
My experience is all Heads!
post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
I agree with spindrift, but I have to point out that what you say here isn't really true. Good shops in parts of the country where tunes need to not suck will have ceramic disc edgers. Just the price of a new car and a call to an Austrian company away.

When I'm around one of those machines, I use it almost exclusively for all my edge finishing, and only do minor tip and tail touchup, particularly after grinding skis.

It is regrettable at this point that so many shops haven't invested in this technology. It is up to the consumer to demand it.

About the possibility of unfinished rec skis: Nothing you or I would buy would be unfinished, but I've seen many US made "boutique" or "back of truck" brands where calling them finished would be a gross overstatement. Not likely the spinny flippy folks care too much about it.
I am well aware of the ceramic disc side edge finisher. but as you say, this is not accessible to the majority of folks. so isn't it kind of a moot point. the only one I know of in a shop here the ski is run against by hand. It's a winterseiger. I am suspect of the quality of this method. compared to a factory cermaic disc finish.
post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
I am well aware of the ceramic disc side edge finisher. but as you say, this is not accessible to the majority of folks. so isn't it kind of a moot point. the only one I know of in a shop here the ski is run against by hand. It's a winterseiger. I am suspect of the quality of this method. compared to a factory cermaic disc finish.
Unless it is one of the actual handheld drill motor types or looks poorly understood/maintained, don't worry too much. It isn't so much run by hand. Check it out more closely. PLC control of feed speed/and start finish zones plus pneumatic control of tool force. Someone does need to stand there and make sure the ski is fed properly, brakes aren't in the way, etc. Just like any tool on earth, someone needs to keep it well maintained. They can develop some quality issues if poorly maintained for sure. You do need to know a few things to get the best results...but if you are going to let some teenager touch your skis, your chances are much better if they are using one of these machines rather than hand tools.

I've used automated feed versions of disc edgers/grinders from more than one manufacturer, and "manual" ones as well...the reasons that good race stone finishing machines are manually loaded and monitored are the same for these edgers IMHO.

My point is that if shops with these machines are hard to come by it is because of information asymmetry. A bad job done with one is likely to be better than most belt edge jobs from most shops in this country...sad but true. It is up to customers to demand that their shops tool up for this century and provide skiers with at least the quality they get when they pull the cellophane off a new pair...sadly I'd say less than 10% of shops achieve that.
post #45 of 52
Nope, I'm not worried about it at all. No one else has touched our skis except for a flat grind in about 5 years. I do them all by hand and have gotten exceptionally good results. Have also tuned quite a few friends skis and they have raved about the difference. So i must be doin' something right!
post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
...and then hand tune the ski in my own shop.

Would you say that all Head's would need a more agressive tune or is it just the Magnum.

bz
The Speed and the Supershape seemed to work ok as is, although a .5, 3 would be my preference.
post #47 of 52
A .7 and 3 transformed my SS Speed into my favorite ski!
post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
Hopefully this answers your questions and you find this helpful.
Very helpful.

So, if I had the ski set at .5 and 3 and I found it to suck, I could simply file it out at home (the .5 anyway)?

I get nervous having shops work on the tuning of my skis. I don't trust that they will do what I ask. Do you think that this is a valid concern? I would guess that a shop like the Starting Gate or SkierShop would get it right. But local shops?

Finally, how about my Top Fuels. They are at 1 and 2. Keep in mind that I like to lay the ski over. I also am a free skier so maybe too much edge could be trouble in certian situations. But ever since Mike Rogan taught me how to angulate in addition to my banking - that's where it's at for me. The sensation of a fully engaged edge with G's is one of the greatest aspects of skiing.

Should I consider changing the tune on the Top Fuels?

I really appreciate the help.
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
Very helpful.

So, if I had the ski set at .5 and 3 and I found it to suck, I could simply file it out at home (the .5 anyway)?

I get nervous having shops work on the tuning of my skis. I don't trust that they will do what I ask. Do you think that this is a valid concern? I would guess that a shop like the Starting Gate or SkierShop would get it right. But local shops?

Finally, how about my Top Fuels. They are at 1 and 2. Keep in mind that I like to lay the ski over. I also am a free skier so maybe too much edge could be trouble in certian situations. But ever since Mike Rogan taught me how to angulate in addition to my banking - that's where it's at for me. The sensation of a fully engaged edge with G's is one of the greatest aspects of skiing.

Should I consider changing the tune on the Top Fuels?

I really appreciate the help.
Yes if you were at a .5 you could add base bevel and get to a 1 degree. But once you are at a 1 base you cannot go back to a .5 base bevel without having your skis ground.

I would try a 3 on your top fuels. I would not decrease the base bevel. A true 1 degree base bevel should be excellent on that ski.

You can easily change a 2 degree side edge to a 3 degree and if for some reason you don't like it you can go easily go back to a 2 just be refiling with a 2 degree side bevel guide and polishing at home. (I highly doubt that won't like the 3)

My guess is you will love the 3 degree side edge based on the description of your skiing. and a 3 really has no downside in softsnow or powder.
post #50 of 52
What Atomicman said:

I would leave the one degree base as is for now and consider changing it when you NEED a base grind. A one degree base is not as much fun nor as satisfying as the 0.5 degree, but it is pretty easy to live with.

I would also go ahead and try the three degree side bevel if you feel a need for better edge grip on hardpack and ice, OR if you're just curious and don't have to remove material with a sidewall planer. If your skiing several inches of snow instead of hard-packed snow and ice, the two degree edge works just fine (My Volants are 1 and 2).

Going to .5 from 1 on the base is like taking the slop out of the steering on a car, or putting on tires with a much stiffer sidewall. Going to the 3 from 2 on the side is like getting a stickier rubber compound for more ultimate grip.
post #51 of 52
I'll try going from 2* to 3* on the Top Fuel. Worth a try.
post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Jones View Post
I'll try going from 2* to 3* on the Top Fuel. Worth a try.

FWIW, here's a visual for you:



HTH
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