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Random Thoughts - Page 2

post #31 of 225

It's easy...

...from a racer's perspective: technique is how you make your turns, tactics is where you put 'em. The best combination of the two produces the fastest time...
post #32 of 225
I like that explanation, SkiRacer55. There's no value judgment attached to it except the clock.

Would those who say there's more to skiing than tactics and technique please let us know what those other matters are?
post #33 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
I agree with Rusty here. . Tactics are more than just line choice. Technique is about developing various techniques. Tactics is about knowing how and when to apply those techniques in the right way to ski effectively. Getting back to our previous efficiency vs effectiveness discussion I might even be so bold as to say that Technique is the efficiency aspect and Tactics are the effectiveness aspect. Technique requires practice and physical conditioning. Tactics require mental thought. it is not limited only to line choice.

Perhaps in racing circles if you are discussing say a GS course, then the techniques that a particular athlete will use are fairly set in stone by how they were trained for that particular type of course, but the exact line they will follow on the course is the most transient factor and thus in racing circles they typically use the word "tractic" to refer mostly to the line, assuming that the athelete will instinctually respond with the appropriate technique at every instant.

But in all mountain skiing, I believe tactics can apply to anything and everything related to the choices we make on a turn by turn basis as we ski down the mountain. Of course, I guess its also fair to say that if you get to a point where you are all mountain skiing and changing up your technique instinctually in response to the terrain, then it would no longer be so much about tactics...other than the line choice perhaps, which can also become instinctual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square View Post
I look at it this way. Technique is where we teach people the ins and outs of making the ski work efficiently. Tactics is where we teach people to have fun on the hill. Its where the real honest to God skiing happens.

We tend to dwell on technique and gloss over tactics when in fact we need to teach both to develop well rounded skiers that have fun on the hill.

Thinking about it, this may be where we go wrong with beginners and don't get them coming back. We get into the mechanics of skiing and forget about making it fun.
BTS - for lack of a pat on the back emoticon - That is a very apropos application of the two distinctions.

T-Square- You make an outstanding observation. Good athletes tend to pick up skills quickly, transfer many others, but experience, tactics take time. A great instructor introduces & shares tactics all along throughout the the learning. They mentor by sharing experiences, knowledge beyond movement. The varioius mental aspects. It is all encompassing. Skills & tactics,mountain knowledge & experience, etc. etc. It's not just a student/instructor relationship. Mentoring is a cool approach. Mentoring is fun, inventive, inspiring (been on both ends in many ways) and mentoring builds the future upon the past. It has no limits. It tends to be an embrace of warmth that extends beyond anything imaginable, it is sharing more than we can think of, and it grows lifetime skiers & well rounded people.
post #34 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Would those who say there's more to skiing than tactics and technique please let us know what those other matters are?
Nolo - does the shift from "just" instructor to "mentor" bring light to those other matters ? To me it does. From many of the pros I read, or who respond to questions of other students or to mine here on epic, in the understanding manner they respond with, I think this is often their approach. Even if it is just in a group lesson meeting the person for the first time, or a person on a holiday. The mentorship approach goes beyond a 2 hr instructor approach and does more than anyone can imagine. It builds a relationship between the people involved, and builds a relationship to the sport that maynot have been there before.
post #35 of 225
I have no argument with your statements about ski teaching, 911over, however I'm not getting from your response what skiing consists of beyond technique and tactics. What is lacking in the equation Technique + Tactics = Skiing?
post #36 of 225
Nolo that is a great question. One to ask of teachers & students. I think it will be different for everyone, and is part of what makes a good match-up w/coach & student.

If you think back to the various instructors or mentors you've had, as I often do (for lessons learned, how to proceed ?) you have the chance to reflect on the relationship & the value of all they teach. How did they define the relationship & what did they cover ? Was it limited to just this or that, or did they go beyond & share experience and wisdom. Did they prepare with knowledge beyond movements, skills, tactics ? Help you think or over come ? As a student, was the student open to ..... or was the instructor able to help open the student to new ......... I think this is a huge area that I myself cannot even attempt to answer. It is a two way street. Both the instructor & student determine direction, but..... there is a ton of room for both to give & grow. It just depends.
post #37 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post
...from a racer's perspective: technique is how you make your turns, tactics is where you put 'em. The best combination of the two produces the fastest time...
Where do you put strategy?
post #38 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I have no argument with your statements about ski teaching, 911over, however I'm not getting from your response what skiing consists of beyond technique and tactics. What is lacking in the equation Technique + Tactics = Skiing?
Innovation.

That equation will not get you to the WC, much less produce Bode Miller.
post #39 of 225
Or inspiration?
post #40 of 225
Or constipation?

(terminal intermediacy)


Or perspiration?

(working towards skills)


Or exhilaration?

(when it all comes together)
post #41 of 225
Methinks Intent + Tactics + Technique could = Skiing (so long at there is also some snow, a hill, and at least one ski to work with...)

.ma
post #42 of 225
Don't forget integration. Tactics + technique + intent, integrated over time and space, equals skiing


(Now where's that font with the integration symbol that looks like a ski hill)?
post #43 of 225

Tactics Tech

Training + education + experience + heart + intentions + technique + tactics/defense/offense/speed/steepness/snow condiitons = skiing

Oh crap that is way to long! How about: Sliding on the snow = skiing (gotta have ski's on) butt sliding doesn't count.

Sorry Nolo but I over -thought the question.
post #44 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
I have no argument with your statements about ski teaching, 911over, however I'm not getting from your response what skiing consists of beyond technique and tactics. What is lacking in the equation Technique + Tactics = Skiing?

Fun!


Isn't that why we all do it. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't be out on the slopes wearing tons of clothes to keep warm, wearing expensive clodhopper boots that I can't walk on and have only one purpose, standing on expensive straight pieces of wood with super slippery bottoms, risking breaking bones and other assorted body parts along with getting frostbite, sliding down tree lined snow and ice covered mountains, and eating super expensive food that McBurgers wouldn't sell.

Hmmmm, now why do I do this. Oh yeh! FUN!
post #45 of 225
That was a weird five minutes.
post #46 of 225
What adds up to skiing to you personally is all that matters. Remember Dead Poet's Society when Robin Williams tells his students to tear out the Introduction by J. Wilfred Pritchard (I can't recall his exact name) because he claims to have an algorithm that will tell readers whether or not a particular poem is any good? This here seems to be a parallel situation of an "expert" putting a bunch of beans in perfectly receptive ears.
post #47 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidude72 View Post
Calling Up-unweighting a technique is like calling a boiled potato dinner. Those items are each only one aspect of a technique.

Technique is a complete method of skiing, defined by its component parts, which in most modern system is a series of skills.

The items you mentioned , to me...are really just outcomes of skill application.
We started with "At its most simple, technique is how we ski".
Now we're dragging skills into the definition. It's not clear how that is making the distinction between tactics and technique any clearer. If up-unweighting is only an aspect of a technique, does that fact change the distinction between tactics and technique?

Why not define technique as a sequence of movements and tactics as a choice of movements?
post #48 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
Why not define technique as a sequence of movements and tactics as a choice of movements?
Right on therusty.

I was abuot to post the following:

Technique is what you can do.

Tactics is what you choose to do.

No good, no bad, no effiecent, no effective, no right, no wrong just what you can do vs. what you choose to do.
post #49 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
What adds up to skiing to you personally is all that matters. Remember Dead Poet's Society when Robin Williams tells his students to tear out the Introduction by J. Wilfred Pritchard (I can't recall his exact name) because he claims to have an algorithm that will tell readers whether or not a particular poem is any good? This here seems to be a parallel situation of an "expert" putting a bunch of beans in perfectly receptive ears.
What "this here" are you referring to?

Does the attempt to "objectify" skiing interfere with it's "subjective" nature?

Is the "subjective" aspect then "better" than treating it "objectively"?

Can't the two sides coexist?

BTW: firstly, the Robin Williams character did a great disservice to those kids by tearing out those pages and offering only the most cavalier of explanations. Secondly, IT WAS JUST ENTERTAINMENT!
post #50 of 225

Yeah, I suppose that's another element...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
Where do you put strategy?
...and what I would say is once you get in the start gate, empty your head, look ahead, and go all out. Before you get in the start gate, you might have a strategy, for example "You know, this course is a piece of cake, and I've been stinking up the joint so bad lately I think I'll just try to go for broke and if I crash or go out, too bad, but as long as I'm going fast when I do, it'll be All Good..." Or maybe "Okay, stupid...this is a downhill, which is what you're good at (Fat Guys Win Speed Events), you've got fast skis, you've got the course wired, so just ski clean and everything will work out fine.."

So, yeah, maybe something like that when you're stretching out in the morning before a race...
post #51 of 225
Quote:
BTW: firstly, the Robin Williams character did a great disservice to those kids by tearing out those pages and offering only the most cavalier of explanations. Secondly, IT WAS JUST ENETERTAINMENT!
That film clip is a staple at learning seminars all over the world as an example of experts "stealing the learning" from novices.
post #52 of 225
Gee, first "What we want doesn't amount to a Hill of Beans",

Then all the stuff we want is nixed by "Bean Counters",

And now they're stuffing Beans in our Ears to prevent us from learning things.

I think we should outlaw Beans.

.ma
post #53 of 225
JRN, nice thoughts. Right there with ya!


Hey SkiRacer55,

Is it permitted to wear a lead-lined underwear in those Speed Events? How would they know?
post #54 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
BTW: firstly, the Robin Williams character did a great disservice to those kids by tearing out those pages and offering only the most cavalier of explanations. Secondly, IT WAS JUST ENTERTAINMENT!
For most of the skiing public skiing is also entertainment, as in recreation. That fun thing that T-Square mentioned above.

It's unfortunate that as adults we forget that skiing is just play, and to a child play is learning. Children are much better learners than adults. Open minds, no preconceived notions, just a desire to play, experiment, explore and have fun.
post #55 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
That film clip is a staple at learning seminars all over the world as an example of experts "stealing the learning" from novices.
Funny that you should choose to respond to this half of my post and leave this half that questioned your post unattended....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
What "this here" are you referring to?

Does the attempt to "objectify" skiing interfere with it's "subjective" nature?

Is the "subjective" aspect then "better" than treating it "objectively"?

Can't the two sides coexist?
In my opinon, everytime someone tries to make an objective comment, someone rises up against objectivity itself....

why is that?
post #56 of 225
I generally do not respond to rhetorical questions, BigE. They can serve their purpose without assistance from me.

The J. Wilfred Pritchards of the world don't care about learning. They just want everyone to think like them.

I liked skiracer55's description because the only value it admitted was that of the clock. There's not a much more objective measure than the clock.
post #57 of 225
Or the smile.
post #58 of 225
nolo,

It is interesting that you thought my questions were rhetorical.

I truly sense that objectivity in skiing is something that is looked down upon by most folks around here. I really wanted to know why subjectivity was raised to such a lofty status.

Objectively, many instructors have low/middling skills. But they think they are great, and so the believe when they pass on their "knowledge" to others, they are doing a very good thing.

Subjectivity is harmful if left unchecked. It leads to the entrenchment of less efficient and effective movement patterns....

Irrespective of the size of the smile.
post #59 of 225
Quote:
Objectively, many instructors have low/middling skills.
Objectively according to whom, BigE?
Quote:
Subjectivity is harmful if left unchecked.
Wouldn't unchecked subjectivity be how children experience the world?
post #60 of 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo View Post
Quote:
Objectively, many instructors have low/middling skills.
Objectively according to whom, BigE?
Well ... according to PSIA and its ISIA siblings for one. As a former high-ranking PSIA official, you're familiar with the ratio of pre-level I, level I (low), level II (middling), and level III (above middling) instructors. It's widely known that a fair portion are held back from the next level by the skiing exam (or both skiing and teaching.)

The wiggle room in this estimator is less than the wiggle room in BigE's characterization "many." His assertion stands firm.
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